[turkey]

HD still isn't too bad. It's kind of a toss-up as to whether it's better or worse than good analog FM. Good reception with HD gives you far less noise than analog FM, much better bass, and more dynamic range (subject to the station's use of compressor/limiters). Top-notch analog FM is probably better than HD radio, but there's only one station in my market that I'd classify as top-notch for analog FM.

I did the mod so I can force analog reception. I think I get better sound from some stations when I select analog.

Overall I am extremely pleased with this tuner. I feel that without any mods at all it is better than probably 99% of the tuners out there. (Some of the mods people suggest are not useful IMO.) The little Sony probably gets about as much out of FM as it's possible to get.

you say it's a toss-up as to whether it's better or worse than good analog fm.  then, you say "i think i get better sound from some stations when I select analog."  which is it?   

It's both. The very best analog FM and the very best HD Radio are both good. Some people will like one better and some will like the other better. For me, I think it's a toss-up.

When using my Sony tuner, there are some stations that seem to sound better when I force analog reception.

I don't see any conflict here.

[turkey]

re: the ultimate sonic qualities of the xdr-f1hd, w/o mods or a tube buffer, for serious listening, i find it to be fatiguing after a short time, but ok for background music.  (i can't listen to sirius/xm even for background, for more than 15-30 minutes, w/o getting a headache.)  w/a tube buffer, the xdr-f1hd becomes eminently listenable for longer periods, tho not as good as better analog tuna.  i haven't tried one w/mods yet.

Tube buffer. Yeah, nothing like a bit of distortion to sweeten up the sound ala Aphex.

I've heard what are supposed to be good analog tuners. I also used to own a Collins FM broadcast receiver. A friend used to have an expensive McIntosh tuner, yadda yadda yadda...

This little Sony sounds as good or better than any other tuner I've ever heard - without any mods other than the one to force analog reception.

YMMV.

[macrojack]

I have a lightly modified, fully restored Kenwood KT 917 which I am hoping to replace with the Sony that I've ordered. Radio stations in my area are Christian, Classic Rock, and otherwise commercial dreck. There is a full time classical station which is nice at times, an around the clock NPR station, and a local community station that gives me fits. The option that appeals to me the most is KVNF in Paonia. Unfortunately this option isn't as quiet as I might hope. If the Sony can kill the background as advertised, I will be thrilled and someone in a better FM market can buy my Kenwood. There really is no DX to be had around here due to terrain. The Rocky Mountains present a formidable barrier to FM transmission.

I'm pretty sure the station I'm most interested in does not broadcast in HD ----- yet!

[Wayner]

That is the other reason I bought the little Sony, will HD broadcasting be the only thing left out of all of this? I don't think it will go away for awhile, as almost all stations around the Twin Cities area have the HD broadcast counterpart, some with multiple programming. That is why I passed on the nice analog tuner and went with the el cheapo Sony. That it sounds pretty good is the extra plus. I wonder how many tuners Amazon sold yesterday 'cause of this thread? At least 3?

Wayner 

[doug s.]

re: the ultimate sonic qualities of the xdr-f1hd, w/o mods or a tube buffer, for serious listening, i find it to be fatiguing after a short time, but ok for background music.  (i can't listen to sirius/xm even for background, for more than 15-30 minutes, w/o getting a headache.)  w/a tube buffer, the xdr-f1hd becomes eminently listenable for longer periods, tho not as good as better analog tuna.  i haven't tried one w/mods yet.

Tube buffer. Yeah, nothing like a bit of distortion to sweeten up the sound ala Aphex.

I've heard what are supposed to be good analog tuners. I also used to own a Collins FM broadcast receiver. A friend used to have an expensive McIntosh tuner, yadda yadda yadda...

This little Sony sounds as good or better than any other tuner I've ever heard - without any mods other than the one to force analog reception.

YMMV.

if electronic "distortion" allows the music itself to sound less distorted, then what is the real distortion?   

i have never owned a collins so i cannot comment.  the best sounding mac i once owned was a refurb'd, modded to the gills mr65b.  i'd prefer it, slightly, to my xdr-f1hd w/tube buffer.  the best sounding s/s mac tunas are the mr74 & the mr77.  i owned one of each, the mr77 was completely refurb'd/aligned.  i'd take the sony w/tube buffer over the s/s macs any day; the macs are way over-rated sonic duds, imo.  and, the tricked out mr65b, while nice in its own right, couldn't hold a candle to any of my much cheaper sherwood tubed tunas, refurb'd or not.

don't get me wrong, i think the xdr-f1hd is an amazing tuna.  but, if you haven't heard any tunas that sound better than a stock xdr-f1hd, then either your radio stations broadcast a compressed signal, you haven't heard any good tunas, or your system isn't resolving enough. 

ymmv,

doug s.

[macrojack]

Isn't a tube preamp a tube buffer?

[doug s.]

Isn't a tube preamp a tube buffer?

even fed into my tube preamp, my ase z-man makes my sony hd tuna sound much more like real music.

doug s.

[macrojack]

Any idea why? I have no experience with tube buffers but I imagine it is just a tubey circuit that your signal passes through to give it that certain something that makes you glass guys drool.
Set me straight, please.

[Brett Buck]

That is the other reason I bought the little Sony, will HD broadcasting be the only thing left out of all of this? I don't think it will go away for awhile, as almost all stations around the Twin Cities area have the HD broadcast counterpart, some with multiple programming. That is why I passed on the nice analog tuner and went with the el cheapo Sony. That it sounds pretty good is the extra plus. I wonder how many tuners Amazon sold yesterday 'cause of this thread? At least 3?

    I don't think the broadcast format (HD, FM, AM) or the technology is the issue. People listened to AM on superregen radios and a single paper speaker and it was hugely successful. I think the competition from other, much less expensive, delivery systems is the problem. The overhead with broadcasting is outrageously high and the ad revenue available from ads is declining as it gets diluted. That's why the RIAA and the NAB are desperately trying to restrict and heavily tax the use of music and the delivery media.

    I don't see it working out. These things run their course, and after the next obvious steps to gain revenue (like beginning to enforce subscriptions with their new HD radio digital technology - trivial addition to the HD radio spec), large-scale broadcast will soon be dead.

    Brett

[macrojack]

Incidentally, just to visit the original topic for a moment, I recall years ago Noam Chomsky saying that television does not exist to deliver news, info and entertainment to the audience, but rather to deliver the audience to the advertisers.

I reckon therein lies the answer to the future of FM. As long as it can sell ads, it will remain viable. Non commercial, radio depends, of course, on a more direct version of the same model.
Who likes pledge drives? Haven't they become hackneyed and too frequent and too long?

On the other hand, anyone who calls for the end of public broadcasting should be viewed as an enemy of the people.

[doug s.]

Any idea why? I have no experience with tube buffers but I imagine it is just a tubey circuit that your signal passes through to give it that certain something that makes you glass guys drool.
Set me straight, please.

i really cannot answer that, macro.  i yust know it improves the sound.  it has also done so w/some of my analog tunas, but to a much smaller degree.  w/the xdr, it makes a significant improvement.

doug s.

[doug s.]

That is the other reason I bought the little Sony, will HD broadcasting be the only thing left out of all of this? I don't think it will go away for awhile, as almost all stations around the Twin Cities area have the HD broadcast counterpart, some with multiple programming. That is why I passed on the nice analog tuner and went with the el cheapo Sony. That it sounds pretty good is the extra plus. I wonder how many tuners Amazon sold yesterday 'cause of this thread? At least 3?

    I don't think the broadcast format (HD, FM, AM) or the technology is the issue. People listened to AM on superregen radios and a single paper speaker and it was hugely successful. I think the competition from other, much less expensive, delivery systems is the problem. The overhead with broadcasting is outrageously high and the ad revenue available from ads is declining as it gets diluted. That's why the RIAA and the NAB are desperately trying to restrict and heavily tax the use of music and the delivery media.

    I don't see it working out. These things run their course, and after the next obvious steps to gain revenue (like beginning to enforce subscriptions with their new HD radio digital technology - trivial addition to the HD radio spec), large-scale broadcast will soon be dead.

    Brett

i would be surprised if hd outlives analog fm.  no one has made any money off it yet, and it screws up reception for many, w/its side-band distortion.

ymmv,

doug s.

[macrojack]

Crap!!! I hope I don't want a tube buffer. One of the biggest appeals the Sony has for me is compactness and simplicity. If I need an extra gizmo, that goal is pretty well defeated. Let's hope I'm less discerning than you, Doug, or there will be a Sony for sale.

[martyo]

So Doug, as the resident "tuna" guru around here, can you recommend someone in regards to a tube buffer for the Sony? Thanks 

[Brett Buck]

    I don't think the broadcast format (HD, FM, AM) or the technology is the issue. People listened to AM on superregen radios and a single paper speaker and it was hugely successful. I think the competition from other, much less expensive, delivery systems is the problem. The overhead with broadcasting is outrageously high and the ad revenue available from ads is declining as it gets diluted. That's why the RIAA and the NAB are desperately trying to restrict and heavily tax the use of music and the delivery media.

    I don't see it working out. These things run their course, and after the next obvious steps to gain revenue (like beginning to enforce subscriptions with their new HD radio digital technology - trivial addition to the HD radio spec), large-scale broadcast will soon be dead.

    Brett

i would be surprised if hd outlives analog fm.  no one has made any money off it yet, and it screws up reception for many, w/its side-band distortion.

     I think you may have missed  my point. You are arguing technology and I am discussing the economics. Technology is irrelevant if the stations all go out of business. Which is happening at Warp 9 right now.


 HD Radio is just a gimmick, but it has one hypothetically tremendous advantage over broadcast FM (at least to people who own radio stations) - a very minor mod would permit you to permit you to charge for subscribing to it. Failing that, you are looking at every single major broadcaster going out of business because the overhead costs are far greater than any possible ad revenue. They are already in that boat. I predict the next step will be to try to charge for subscriptions which is not possible with AM or FM, but can be done with digital technology, just like Sirius/XM. That won't work, either, but I see that as the last gasp.

    It might be better for people who like the old days of FM - no big stations blasting  ads 24/7 since they can't afford it, just little local stations that can do what they want.

     Brett

[doug s.]

Crap!!! I hope I don't want a tube buffer. One of the biggest appeals the Sony has for me is compactness and simplicity. If I need an extra gizmo, that goal is pretty well defeated. Let's hope I'm less discerning than you, Doug, or there will be a Sony for sale.

it may be ok for you, if you do not like sitting in the "sweet spot" listening to fm as you may be wont to do w/your other sources.  i happen to do it a lot.

if you want better sound but still want compactness & simplicity w/o the buffer, yust send it to mike williams for his mods.  it will set you back another $200 or so, but you will more than recoup that when you sell the kt917.   

doug s.

ps - these *do* run really hot; placing mine on 1" cubes yielded about 10-15f cooler, measured at the top wents...

[doug s.]

I think you may have missed  my point. You are arguing technology and I am discussing the economics. Technology is irrelevant if the stations all go out of business. Which is happening at Warp 9 right now.


 HD Radio is just a gimmick, but it has one hypothetically tremendous advantage over broadcast FM (at least to people who own radio stations) - a very minor mod would permit you to permit you to charge for subscribing to it. Failing that, you are looking at every single major broadcaster going out of business because the overhead costs are far greater than any possible ad revenue. They are already in that boat. I predict the next step will be to try to charge for subscriptions which is not possible with AM or FM, but can be done with digital technology, just like Sirius/XM. That won't work, either, but I see that as the last gasp.

    It might be better for people who like the old days of FM - no big stations blasting  ads 24/7 since they can't afford it, just little local stations that can do what they want.

     Brett

no, i understand the economics part.  as-is, hd is an economic loser, partly to technology - its sidebands interfere w/other stations, there is no reception benefit, and it's expensive for stations to adopt the hardware.  (as you awreddy allude to.)  if hd starts charging subscriptions, that will yust hasten its demise, imo.  or strengthen standard fm, which will ewentually effect the same end-result.  average everyday non-audiophile folks like fm cuz they don't need a subscription to it.  look at satellite radio - xm & sirius merged cuz there was no way both could be wiable, and even now, its future is in doubt.  (man, would i love to see that purveyor of sonic garbage fail!)

doug s.

[doug s.]

So Doug, as the resident "tuna" guru around here, can you recommend someone in regards to a tube buffer for the Sony? Thanks 

i really like the ase z-man, but these have been nla new for years; and they infrequently show up used.  (i would not recommend the older mf x10d; these are a bit colored, imo.  i haven't heard the newer mf buffer.)  there are a few folks making expensive ones, but that kinda defeats the purpose;  i would recommend trying the yaqin cd-2, which can typically be found on ebay for ~$110 shipped.  i haven't tried it, but i have heard decent things about it, especially if you increase the asking price 50% by rolling nos tubes...

here's one for $97 shipped:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260508252508


doug s.

[Brett Buck]

I think you may have missed  my point. You are arguing technology and I am discussing the economics. Technology is irrelevant if the stations all go out of business. Which is happening at Warp 9 right now.


 HD Radio is just a gimmick, but it has one hypothetically tremendous advantage over broadcast FM (at least to people who own radio stations) - a very minor mod would permit you to permit you to charge for subscribing to it. Failing that, you are looking at every single major broadcaster going out of business because the overhead costs are far greater than any possible ad revenue. They are already in that boat. I predict the next step will be to try to charge for subscriptions which is not possible with AM or FM, but can be done with digital technology, just like Sirius/XM. That won't work, either, but I see that as the last gasp.

    It might be better for people who like the old days of FM - no big stations blasting  ads 24/7 since they can't afford it, just little local stations that can do what they want.

     Brett

no, i understand the economics part.  as-is, hd is an economic loser, partly to technology - its sidebands interfere w/other stations, there is no reception benefit, and it's expensive for stations to adopt the hardware.  (as you awreddy allude to.)  if hd starts charging subscriptions, that will yust hasten its demise, imo.  or strengthen standard fm, which will ewentually effect the same end-result.  average everyday non-audiophile folks like fm cuz they don't need a subscription to it.  look at satellite radio - xm & sirius merged cuz there was no way both could be wiable, and even now, its future is in doubt.  (man, would i love to see that purveyor of sonic garbage fail!)

   I agree HD radio will not solve the problem. But radio (not just FM) was going broke *before* there was an HD radio and will continue at a very accelerated pace. I am not particularly happy about it but it's no longer a viable economic proposition. Too many other very good ways to listen without having to "pay" in the form of ads.

     Brett

[Wayner]

On the other hand, anyone who calls for the end of public broadcasting should be viewed as an enemy of the people.

Then I quess I'm the enemy of the people.