[jazzcourier]

How effective are these HD ants scooping up your local stations with the HD signal ?  It is my desire not to fatten the coffers of the Dish network by having to pay for the HD box and ant and then the local channel charge. I am certain i will not be spending my time watching the Food network in HD!  The list of HD channels seems a little weak at best. I will be grateful for Any comments or experience with this type of setup. I have been looking at the Winegard ants.

[srb]

HD antennas are somewhat of a marketing ploy.  Digital TV transmission is either in the VHF or UHF band, so there is no difference between an "HD TV antenna" and a good VHF/UHF antenna.
 
"According to the FCC when the digital transition is all said and done there will be 1324 full powered TV stations broadcasting on the UHF frequency band channels 14 through 51. 450 stations will broadcasting on the high band VHF frequencies channels 7-13 and only 37 stations using the low band VHF channels 2-6. Most TV markets in the US will have at least 1 TV station broadcasting on VHF many areas will have 2 or 3 VHF channels. In most case the antenna of choice will need to be VHF and UHF capable."
 
There are apparently a handful of cities that have UHF-only digital transmission:
Huntsville, AL,  Ft. Wayne, IN,  Southbend, IN,  St. Louis, MO,  Omaha, NE,  Buffalo, NY,  Syracuse, NY and Dayton, OH, where you can get by with a UHF only antenna.
 
If you have an existing rooftop VHF/UHF antenna, you may find that it will work very well.  The signals are directional and a good line of sight is important without significant trees and buildings in the way.  Many analog TV households had antenna rotators, and that would be just as useful for HD TV.
 
I am currently using an amplified indoor antenna, but I have borderline performance.  I have found a position that I can get all of my main local channels, but if I bump it a few degrees off adjustment, I can't receive some channels.
 
Unlike analog reception, where the picture might have some snow or lines if the antenna isn't perfectly adjusted, if the digital reception is off you will get dropouts, pixellation, freezing or no picture/sound at all.  But when you have reception of a good signal, the picture is generally fantastic.  (Maybe better than some cable or satellite feeds, if they're using significant compression).
 
You can go to http://www.antennaweb.org and get a good idea of what stations you might expect to receive for your locale, type of antenna and placement.
 
Again, if you have a decent VHF/UHF rooftop antenna, you are probably in pretty good shape.
 
Steve

[Bob in St. Louis]

Good thread.

Steve, when you say "decent VHF/UHF rooftop antenna", I assume you're totally discounting the $20 indoor Walmart units as a waste of money?
Do you thing the $100+ indoor units made my Terk are good? If memory serves, PartsExpress sells them.
Or are you saying the only way to do it, and do it right would be to climb on the roof with a drill in hand?

Bob

[srb]

Good thread.

Steve, when you say "decent VHF/UHF rooftop antenna", I assume you're totally discounting the $20 indoor Walmart units as a waste of money?
Do you thing the $100+ indoor units made my Terk are good? If memory serves, PartsExpress sells them.
Or are you saying the only way to do it, and do it right would be to climb on the roof with a drill in hand?

No Bob, I'm not discounting cheap indoor units, but generally no indoor antenna works as well as an outdoor antenna.  I have a $50 Radio Shack indoor model that as I mentioned, just works for my main local stations and location.  But what I was trying to say earlier was that marginal reception on a previous analog channel that might have given acceptable reception with a minor amount of fuzz or snow, may now be completely unusable with the digital signal.
 
There have been customer reviews of Terks and other brands where they felt that their new antenna was no better (or even worse) than the cheaper $20 unit they already had.
 
So it's kind of a crapshoot.  In my indoor situation, I do find that the built-in amplifier helps me versus an unamplified antenna, but I can't receive some of the higher band UHF stations in my area.  Monoprice sells a reasonably priced small indoor/outdoor model that could be hooked up inside, and if it didn't give the results you were looking for, you could probably improve reception by outdoor mounting it, but the best outdoor antennas seem to be the old tried and true larger multi-element metal tube type of sufficient width and length.
 
For optimum reception with an outdoor antenna, to get a clear line of sight to the antenna towers without trees or buildings in the way, may require a tall mast height.
 
There is also a lot of information (and where I got a lot of mine) from this web vendor http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/index.html.
 
Steve

[Bob in St. Louis]

Cool, thanks for the info Steve. And extra thanks for the link to "Dennys". 
I live in a valley, so I think I'm screwed. No line of sight for me without an antenna tall enough the FAA would want blinking lights on top. 

Bob

[Jon L]

How effective are these HD ants scooping up your local stations with the HD signal ?  It is my desire not to fatten the coffers of the Dish network by having to pay for the HD box and ant and then the local channel charge. I am certain i will not be spending my time watching the Food network in HD!  The list of HD channels seems a little weak at best. I will be grateful for Any comments or experience with this type of setup. I have been looking at the Winegard ants.

You really do need to type in your address at
http://www.antennaweb.org
They will tell you exactly what type of antenna setup you need and what channels are available. 

In my old home, all the stations' transmitters were concentrated in one area, so all I had to do was to point my HD antenna right at one direction to receive all the available off-air channels.  If transmitters are all over the place, you may need to install a rotor.

Channel Master 4228 I used is a very good all-round performer in most situations.  It's not expensive and can be mounted with a pole from Radio Shack.

[Bob in St. Louis]

You really do need to type in your address at
http://www.antennaweb.org
They will tell you exactly what type of antenna setup you need and what channels are available. 

I get two channels.
How many are guys getting?

Bob


Channel
* red
uhf KNLC-DT 24.1 FMN ST. LOUIS, MO  171? 2.0 14
* blue
uhf WRBU-DT 46.1 MNT E. ST. LOUIS, IL  92? 3.6 47
 

[JimL]

If you are a diy type of guy, the Make online magazine has a cheap antenna project:

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/01/maker_workshop_dtv_antenna_steadyca.html

We built one of these up here, and hang it from a window connected to a USB TV tuner on a computer, and get all 12 stations (mulitplexed)  that are available in Duluth, MN.  We are about 5 miles from the towers, but have buildings in the way.  I'm impressed that it works that well.

I helped my dad connect one of the bigger channel master antennas at his house, and he gets all 12 Duluth, MN stations from about 70 miles away. 

Jim

[jazzcourier]

O.K. folks,some good,solid comments and advice! I need to be a little more specific as to my situation. There sits in my den the Hitachi 57uxw20b-the eight year old beast that will not die. 57 " of projection tv,so large i have the fear that an army of pint size warriors will bust from it's innards  one night and take us all hostage and force us to watch the Teletubbies. This behemoth has nobly hosted my full array of "stuff" a dvd player,a laserdisc/dvd player-yes i bought the sony-a vhs player,a pioneer "advanced technology receiver"-carbon dated and two Clements floorstanding speakers straddling the mother ship to amplify the sneaker  squeaks during basketball games.  Come the age of digital boxes into the picture for local channels.........I have a Zenith and am enjoying my local weather girls' ample assets with dynamic clarity,the Hitachi has an HD input and currently on the rear of this Zenith i am feeding the on roof antenna cable into the "antenna to tv" input and the "to tv (rf)" input is being fed into the tv. On the other side of the zenith box are 3 other inputs audio R and L and the third is  "video"  OK that is the long form story of my setup and the goal is to get the local channels in HD without getting the satellite company's paws deeper into my pocket. Perhaps someone can offer some specific instructions in getting me there.As always,i am grateful and humbled by your collective knowledge.   

[dmatt]

Jazzcourier,

I faced this issue when the San Diego stations went full digital in June. 

Until that time, I used a Radio Shack roof antenna to pull in all the analog S.D. stations for my analog-only Sony tube TV (yes, all my $$ go to audio gear).  Sometimes there was snow and static, but was good enough for the amount of TV we watch.

To find out what to do, I used the two sites already suggested (antennaweb.org and dennys -- great info!!) to settle on a Winegard HD-7698P Outdoor HDTV Antenna and Winegard AP8700 Chromstar 2000 Series VHF/UHF Pre Amplifier.  I am pulling in 12 UHF/VHF stations (English and Spanish).  But I was lucky, only distance from towers is my issue (50 to 70 miles away).  I am line-of-site with no major obstructions (none that I can see and no mountains in the way that I know of). 

The other cool gadget I found is the Winegard RC-1010 HDTV Digital Receiver.  I needed a receiver to decode the digital off-the-air broadcast.  This is a non-issue if your TV is more modern than my 10 year-old analog set.  The Winegard receiver has component video out and digital audio out -- so I run the output through my AV receiver and get Dolby Digital from off-the-air broadcasts.  I did not find another receiver with digital audio out -- a plus in my book.

SRB is right, when digital reception is good (above 50% signal strength) it is very good, but when it is bad, there is nothing there.  I will sometimes get enough of a drop in signal to lose one station but not others, usually during heavy coastal fog though I don't know if that is the reason.

All of this was a chunk of change up-front, but we don't have cable TV so we are getting digital (and digital HD) local stations without a monthly fee.

Purchased the antenna and receiver from Parts Express (they were on sale at the time) and got the amp from Solid Signal, though Dennys sells them too.

Hope this helps.

David

[dmatt]

Jazzcourier,

RE your most recent post,

The Zenith is your digital receiver -- taking the roof antenna signal and converting to video/audio?

You are running a coax from your Zenith to the Hitachi TV?

The video/audioL/audioR are outputs from the Zenith (ie to a TV or VCR, etc.) or inputs to the Zenith?

When you change channels, do you use the remote for the Hitachi or the Zenith?

Does the Hitachi have component video inputs (three RCA plugs usually R/G/B boots/sockets)?

It sounds like the Zenith is decoding the digital OTA signal and feeding anolog RF (through single coax) to the Hitachi.  The Hitachi tuner is selecting the channel (my guess is you are using the Hitachi remote to change channels).  I don't think the Hitachi can get HD resolution from an analog RF feed (but someone who knows more may correct me), but if the Hitachi has component video inputs, they are capable of handling HD.  So you need a digital receiver that will output the decoded HD signal in component video.

I think ... 

David

[srb]

Jazzcourier,
 
If I now understand correctly, you have an existing standard definition Dish Network receiver and want to integrate the HD off-air local channels with it?
 
And when you connect your roof antenna to your Zenith digital TV converter box and then into your TV, you get good reception of the local channels?
 
So you just want to combine the two?  If that's the case I don't think you can do that using one channel selector.  For that you would need the Dish HD receiver and it's HD antenna input.  Which is what you're trying to avoid.
 
I think the only thing you can do is get a simple RF coaxial antenna switch, connect both the Dish receiver and the roof antenna to it and use it to switch between them.  You would need to take the L/R audio outputs of the Zenith receiver into audio receiver and also switch the audio there.  Since the Zenith does not have a digital audio output, you would not be able to decode 5.1 Dolby Digital or DTS (but you said you had only 2 speakers anyway).
 
If I am still misunderstanding, please forgive me!
 
Steve

[jazzcourier]

Hi Steve-Thanks for reading........... My picture and reception on the local channels through the digital converter box is very good-how do i get those local channels that broadcast in HD? The Dish receiver will remain independent of this local channel HD quest. I hope i am being clear,because i am starting to confuse myself! Kindly- John

[srb]

Okay, the TV converter box needs to be able to receive HD, but apparently it is not HD capable?  What is the model of this Zenith?
 
Steve

[jazzcourier]

Steve-  It is a Zenith DTT901 Digital tv tuner converter box................are we getting warmer?

[srb]

John, your Zenith DTT901 has an ATSC digital TV tuner, but it can only output 480i resolution.  Standard NTSC TV tuners only have 240 lines of resolution, so in that respect it is better than your previous analog signal.  Standard DVD resolution is 480i/480p.
 
High Definition, HD, is considered to be between 720p/1080i/1080p, and they often refer to 1080p as "Full HD".  Very few cable or satellite feeds are 1080p, most are 720p or 1080i.  Blu-ray is also 1080p.
 
So the converter box is only capable of 480i.  I'm looking for specs on your TV, and I haven't found them yet, but it says "HD capable" which tells me that it should probably be able to run in 720p.

In other words, you're receiving an HD-capable signal, but your present converter box can only downsample it to 480i.
 
Steve

[jazzcourier]

Thank you Steve! Is there a box that would better serve my needs ?   John

[Wayner]

I have a Samsung HDTV tuner for my older Sony 36" Excaliber TV and the video is truely fantastic, tho it is the lowly 720p. It also has 5.1 digital output so I can watch CSI Miami with full surround sound from the antenna (which is a Channel Master), and is much better (and more expensive) then the Wingard.

Wayner 

[srb]

Wayne,
 
What is the model of your Samsung HD tuner?  I'm not very familiar with them so I don't want to recommend one, rather from someone like you who is using one.
 
John's Hitachi TV has component and DVI w/HDCP video inputs.  A lot of these converter boxes will downsample if you use their RF coaxial output, so I think it will probably need to be connected via component video.
 
BTW, 720p is not so "lowly".  I'm amazed at how good it looks.  I've even watched programs I don't normally watch because they look so good!
 
Steve

P.S.  Found some specs on the Hitachi, and it is 1080i.  And 265 lbs.  No wonder John called it the "old beast".

[Wayner]

Srb, I can't find the book on it.  All the front panel says is HTDV tuner, no model number. It's music hour right now, but I will look later.

Wayner