Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities

Coytee · « **Reply #120 on:** 29 Oct 2009, 10:01 pm »

Some interesting comments from a Jubilee owner (not my comments)
Notice his comment on bass response

Edit: forgot the initial link:
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/102414.aspx?PageIndex=1

I began to read the Jubilee threads on this forum in October 2007. Like Bill W., I lacked access to Jubilees for audition. However my past and present understanding of acoustics convinced me of the clear advantages of the Jubilees over my then Khorn clones. Trusting the Klipsch forum wasn?t really difficult since the Jub entries literally went hundreds of pages. When I think about it, I cannot recall any other product about which can make that claim. From order to delivery took less than two weeks?fairly spectacular performance out of Klipsch, especially considering it was the week before Christmas.

Setup: When the Jubes arrived, I had a couple of days getting them set up and equalized/ balanced with the two XTi?s I also bought to drive them using active crossover capabilities in the Crown amps just like the commercial theater installations do. Once I did get them setup and got a chance to crank them up a bit, these units ?came alive?. Turning them up doesn?t result in facial grimaces or other teeth-clenching exercises like it did for the Khorns ? these units just keep sounding better and better until you notice that it?s actually louder than real life, in which case you back the gain down until they sound real when you close your eyes. At this point, conversation is good if you know ASL (American Sign Language).

Note that I am listening with anechoic XTi settings from Roy?s work in their chamber. I believe this results in a measure of realism that may not be uniformly heard in all Jubilee installations?caveat emptor to DIY electronics folks when using Jubes. My present room is tailor-made for corner horns ? about 16 feet wide, 9 feet high, 40 feet long, and with two good symmetric corners.

Performance: I?ll dispense with any discussions about lf and hf drivers, horn expansion profiles, driver integration discussion, or crossover theory since I don?t think those things are important to the casual listener in any case. Jubilee performance is something that is very difficult for me to characterize since they?ve been a very different experience than any other speakers I?ve heard.

First, I?ve given up comparing these units to other speakers?I think of the Jubes as the closest thing to reality that I?ve ever heard. Pianos, female voices, string orchestras, horns, percussion, etc. sound like you remember they should. I don?t set any other speakers on that standard including Khorns or any other high-end speakers. Every day that I get to listen to these speakers is a good one?in fact, it?s usually the highlight of my day.

Second, I?ve since become an avid collector of high quality CDs, and many of those have been recommended on this forum. I?m delighted with each small journey that the USPS brings to my doorstep pretty much daily via Amazon Marketplace. I, too, have been busy rediscovering hundreds of hours worth of music: I?ve got a few hundred more to go with all the older vinyl I collected up to around 1984, but never got rid of. Some of that old vinyl doesn?t sound bad now, but no vinyl sounds like the best CDs that I now own. I guess that I should try out a much better TT, but right now that exercise just doesn?t appeal to me.

Third, the bottom end is solid, regardless of what anyone might think or say. I?d be hard pressed to want a subwoofer for any music that is playing. I have a DEQ2496 equalizer that I use, exclusively to equalize the low-end cutoff another 4-5-or more Hz. My organ records shake the room like I remember the real thing?maybe because the room they're in is large enough to support lf down to the low-20 Hz range in one dimension. Anyone that says that they need a subwoofer with these probably has some tendency toward bass addiction? a common malady in this market?or they are watching war and action movies with lots of percussive audio effects. My observation: you better get out your wallet to get subwoofers that can successfully and usefully extend the extreme lf performance of these babies-because they do very well as-is, assuming good corner loading.

Fourth, these units fill the entire room with a balanced sound image, from front to back and side-to-side. Some areas of the room reinforce lf performance better, such that you can sit at my breakfast table at the back of the room and really rock along with Brian Bromberg?s ?Wood? bass with a feeling of realism. Even in adjoining rooms, the sound still feels like a live performance is playing in the next room. This is something which is much different than even the Khorns.

Listener Comments: Comments from folks that have come by include the usual: dead silence?no expression at all, ??wow?those don?t sound?like mine?, ?my wife will never let those things into the house?, ??how much??, ?you should have seen that fish I caught last month?, ?have you ever thought about tubes?, etc.

Admittedly, the number of people that have auditioned them has been a couple of dozen vs. probably many hundreds in Bill W.?s restaurant, but the reaction is fairly uniform in my experience ? mainly dead silence. Most of the most critical listeners seem to be women, not guys. They seem to open up a bit more with ?those are the best speakers that I?ve ever heard? where did those come from??, ?I didn?t know that speakers could sound like that?but they aren?t very good looking are they??. Younger folks (in their 20s) usually don?t appear to notice anything until their video games start up?then they have a tendency to stick around for a long time playing on the large flat screen TV between the Jubes. I think they just ?zone out?, sort of like a Bradbury story.

At the risk of alienating some auditioners that bring their own music for audition, a great deal of what I hear really doesn?t do these units justice. The one time that I was obliged to put some of my demo CDs on, the performance change was nothing short of dramatic- especially for low bass recordings. I now subscribe to the theory that you should listen to new music when you audition new speakers, even if it is mixed in with music that you are already familiar with.

I hope some of this might be useful to those that might be thinking about Jubes.

Respectfully,

Chris A.

(This is a second thread on this general topic--see http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/99200.aspx?PageIndex=1 for the first thread in this series).

JoshK · « **Reply #121 on:** 29 Oct 2009, 11:38 pm »

Chris,

I haven't read through all those threads about the Jubes yet. Can you answer some simple questions for me?

Can you still order/buy these? I think I read you ordered these from Roy Delgado. How much do they cost, if you don't mind my asking? Can you order just the bins?

Pretty darn cool.

JoshK · « **Reply #122 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 12:15 am »

One other question, what are the dimensions of the bins? I looked up the Jub 535 cinema speaker and the dimensions quotes have to be wrong. 8 feet tall, 5 feet deep?! really?

Lyndon · « **Reply #123 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 12:45 am »

There you go, Josh!
Looks like you're in the market for a new house. After all the work you've put in the past 2 years.

Did you ever read that thread in Decware with those monster speakers that were a copy from some old movie
theater? I think they were built in the garage, and stayed in the garage.
Lyndon

Coytee · « **Reply #124 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 12:49 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 29 Oct 2009, 11:38 pm

Chris,

I haven't read through all those threads about the Jubes yet. Can you answer some simple questions for me?

Can you still order/buy these? I think I read you ordered these from Roy Delgado. How much do they cost, if you don't mind my asking? Can you order just the bins?

Pretty darn cool.

Heh... I'm not Chris but that's ok... I've met him and trust me...you could call me a LOT worse!

Yes, you can still order these. In fact, the ones pictured are the most recent pair that has been purchased. Most of the earlier adopters received them in black. There is an upcharge for the fancy veneer in front BUT, I do not know how much the upcharge might be.

Yes, all orders would need to be orchestrated through Roy. These are NOT bought in a standard format so he's paved the road with one of their distributors so they can be ordered/delivered with few surprises (a few have been managed).

When I bought mine (in the industrial black) they were "about $7,000" and they had NO crossover with them. You can build a passive that has been designed or you can go active which many have done. I'm using an Electrovoice Ex38. new are about $1,300 (?) and you can find them on ebay for maybe $500/600.

Though you can buy just the bass bins I'd contend that once someone actually hears the whole package (with the K402 horn on top) it's pretty hard to beat. Regardless... I have zero idea what the price of the bass bins alone might be. I'd speculate about $5,000. Oh...I might add...when I ordered mine, the price included all shipping and all taxes (none).

Richard

Coytee · « **Reply #125 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 01:00 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 30 Oct 2009, 12:15 am

One other question, what are the dimensions of the bins? I looked up the Jub 535 cinema speaker and the dimensions quotes have to be wrong. 8 feet tall, 5 feet deep?! really?

I see their height listed as 77.25 inches or 6 1/2' They are NOT 8' 5"... then again realize we're also removing the very top horn. Actually We are doing nothing...that's part of the special order. We are dropping the tweeter horn (K510 horn) and moving the tweeter driver down to the midrange horn (K402) and then we are dropping the midrange driver. by dropping, I mean, Klipsch is NOT including them.

Just measured.... they are roughly 66" tall, 42" wide and (didn't measure this one but it's from an old memory) about 24" deep

This is to the top of the K402 horn, not the top of the bass bin. If you want that, lemme know and I'll go back downstairs (pant pant pant) and get it.

JoshK · « **Reply #126 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 01:08 am »

Thanks. I wouldn't mind knowing how tall the bin is when you get a round tuit.

At this point, I am not seriously considering the Jubes or anything, but just wondering if they'd fit in my corners.

Coytee · « **Reply #127 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 01:23 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 30 Oct 2009, 01:08 am

Thanks. I wouldn't mind knowing how tall the bin is when you get a round tuit.

At this point, I am not seriously considering the Jubes or anything, but just wondering if they'd fit in my corners.

The bass bins are 40" tall

If someone is curious as to them fitting in their room then I'd suggest this, simply go to your corners, measure out 36" from each side of the corner along the wall. Do you have any obstructions within that 36"? (window, doorway...)

Truth be told, I think it's actually 31" but by using 36 I know you're covered. Also, because these have an enclosed back, they don't HAVE to be in a corner like a Klipschorn does. As I understand (from Roy), as long as they are within about 10" from the walls/corner, you will keep their low end extension

Edit: added picture of mine in a 16' wide room with a 50" tv in between

Coytee · « **Reply #128 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 01:42 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 29 Oct 2009, 05:13 pm

If I am correct and that is the Jubilee, it looks like its lower corner is 50hz and upper around 500hz.

Not arguing, just trying to make sure the story is fairly accurate. The Jubilee bass bin will go down to (??) I don't really know the bottom. Evidently, it will go up to about 1K hz fairly easily. We are crossing over electronically about 450 hz. I've moved that point up the scale (with my active) and was very impressed with how high the bass bin was able to play.

One of the design paramaters of this project was to keep the Khorn footprint, lower the distortion, increase output and (I think their main goal) raise the crossover point from the Khorn.

Evidently, they met all goals.

JoshK · « **Reply #129 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 12:37 pm »

I was thinking more about this. I think the reason why the 50hz lower corner isn't as sharp (meaning you might get more bass than this would otherwise imply) is due to the corner loading. I think the 1/2 pi loading lifts the bottom end substantially.

JoshK · « **Reply #130 on:** 11 Nov 2009, 10:32 pm »

Want to buy a pair of fully loaded horn speakers?
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1262991887&/Audiovoice-Acoustics-Eikon-4wa

(I am not associated with the seller in any way).

JoshK · « **Reply #131 on:** 18 Nov 2009, 07:56 pm »

Another horn maker!

http://www.elevenhorns.com/

Group buy anyone?

konut · « **Reply #132 on:** 18 Nov 2009, 08:44 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 18 Nov 2009, 07:56 pm

Another horn maker!

http://www.elevenhorns.com/

Group buy anyone?

OK, I'll bite. 2-600 LC 2" throat

JoshK · « **Reply #133 on:** 18 Nov 2009, 09:15 pm »

I was joking about the GB, I should have used a smiley. They do look quite good, but they have intro pricing, so there isn't a reason for a GB.

nullspace · « **Reply #134 on:** 18 Nov 2009, 09:16 pm »

Jeffrey has an add up at Audiogon: 11Horns. I think that price is competitive with what I've seen elsewhere for wood horns. And, I don't have any doubts that they're well done.

Regards,
John

JoshK · « **Reply #135 on:** 18 Nov 2009, 09:32 pm »

Yeah, saw the ad. Good stuff. The 140LC Compression horn is tempting...oh so tempting.

konut · « **Reply #136 on:** 18 Nov 2009, 10:08 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 18 Nov 2009, 09:15 pm

I was joking about the GB, I should have used a smiley. They do look quite good, but they have intro pricing, so there isn't a reason for a GB.

I wasn't joking. Maybe a group of 10 people buying 2 each would be worth it to them to get a jump start on their business. A thread on AC would provide a source of PR,exposure and feedback that would easily be worth a further 5%. Hey, it don't cost nuthin to ask, and since it was your idea.........

hum4god · « **Reply #137 on:** 24 Nov 2009, 10:33 pm »

Hi everyone

and thanks for this discussion. it fits right into what i am looking for.

John/nullspace:
i have fertin 20ex playing in ob right now crossed over at 250hz to a bass unit and do enjoy the presentation.
i know you had a similar setup and decided to try the AH horn.
i am wondering how you would describe the difference in presentation as i would think they are VERY different from OB to Horn !!.
i also talked briefly to Bill Woods and he says that a distance of 7' from Horn driver is not a problem.
you mention that you are not totally happy with how they integrate ???

macrojack:
i really like your setup and am very tempted to try something similar.
i already contacted Bill and he is indeed very helpful.
may i ask where you got your B&C drivers?
what is your listening distance to the horn?
what other speakers did you own before the present setup?
what amps do you use?
how does the performance compare wit and without the tweet on on the DCX?

malcolm

nullspace · « **Reply #138 on:** 25 Nov 2009, 02:37 pm »

Hi Malcolm,

They're very different, as you might imagine. The Fertin drivers remain very, very nice and completely pleasant. The horns & large-diameter mids are just so dynamic and effortless.

I think you misread my comments; I'm perfectly happy with how the AH!1000 horns integrate in my setup. However, I do think that the AH!300 horns would be too large for my room. I've heard them (meaning the AH!300) in both a hotel room and a properly-large loft and they were far better in the later.

Regards,
John

macrojack · « **Reply #139 on:** 25 Nov 2009, 03:12 pm »

Here's a source for the B&C DCX 50.
http://www.magnumcaseworks.com/Loudspeakers.html

I sit back about 12 - 13 feet from the mouth of the horn. It is far enough to work but I have a feeling more might be better.

I sent you a list in the P.M. In the last 15 years, I have had Zu Definition Pro, Zu Druid, Golmund Dialogue, NHT 2.9, Avalon Eclipse and Aerial 10T.

I am actively bi-amped with Jeff Rowland 102 on horns and Perreaux PMF 1850 on woofers.

I have never used the tweeters so I can't answer that one.