[JohnR]

I didn't read the Octagon link yet. But horns would definitely be an advantage (or necessary) in the type of space you describe. I just hope it doesn't have dirt floors...!

I discovered recently that a large room is by no means an audiophile dream, necessarily. I'm not sure why that was a surprise to me - walk into a gymnasium and clap your hands together and listen.

Anyway I just wanted to say thanks to you and the others posting in this thread - I've learned a lot.

JohnR

[macrojack]

JohnR - That's an interesting consideration concerning room volume. I imagine the gymnasium sounds the way it does because of hard surfaces and, perhaps, the ratio of L to W to H.

So, on that subject, if we were to build a listening room in our LAB, what would be an optimum dimensions? Is there a shape other than rectangular that works best acoustically. I've attended many a performance in the concert hall at our local college and in the Edward Robinson Theatre, and both venues are somewhat horn shaped with the stage at the narrow end.
The concert hall has some room treatment.

For home it may not be too practical to create such a shape. And certainly, even with horns, you wouldn't want too much volume. What are the ideal dimensions for a listening space? Is the Golden Ratio really the ideal configuration, as many say?

My place sounds really good but I keep fantasizing about serious bass horns and no design I've seen would fit in our living room synergistically and within a remotely realistic price. So I dream instead about creating a better space.
That's where my possibly incongruous building blather was born. Sorry if I deviated too much. I imagine the Lab is about possibilities in audio -- even those too big to solder.

[Coytee]

Please define "power response".

Hello all....  new here and a Klipsch fan (also have some EV's)  Don't have anything homebuilt and don't think I've ever heard an OB speaker.

Enough of intros and disclaimers! 

Regarding power response...  I was under the impression that you want even power response and this is my understanding why.

When you are sitting in the room listening, you are listening to direct as well as indirect sound.  When you are listening to indirect sound  or reflections, (if I may try to butcher an analogy) you are listening to different richochets of the original sound.  If this reflective sound has an uneven power response then certain reflections might have more high frequency content in them and some might have more lower frequency content in them and some of them might be very nicely balanced.

If on the other hand, you have a speaker with even power response, then as these reflections bounce around the room and to your ears, each reflection will contain more 'balanced' sonic information than the uneven power response speaker.

I recently had the pleasure of taking part of an interesting listening experiment.  It happened in an anechoic chamber.  We took a HF horn, designed to cross about 450/500 and listened to it in the chamber.  We listened to it on axis as well as off axis.  We then swapped it out for a larger (much larger) horn of similar design (crossing 450) and listened again to it.  What was interesting is not only was there less net sound being heard while standing BEHIND the larger horn (it was controlling the sound and projecting forward much better than the smaller one) the sonic balance of what was heard behind it was better than the smaller horn.

That was enough evidence to show me that if you really want to maximize the sound in your room, power response is indeed something that should be kept mind of.  It was a very interesting experience.

[JoshK]

How about some horn links?  Hopefully these will inspire, give ideas, start the creative juices flowing.

http://www.realhorns.de/
http://www.cessaro-horn-acoustics.com
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=32
http://www.audioanthology.com/building.htm
http://www.moviemice.com/we/horns/index.php
http://myjubs.com/
http://www.michaelchrist.com/
http://www.musique-concrete.com/MC/ENHome.html
http://www.kbrooksaudio.net/custom.html
http://www.hornfabrik-eder.de/
http://www.bd-design.nl/

[JoshK]

Romy has a thread on his forum about listing horn makers for those who don't wish to build their own.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=3226#3226

Probably all of the ones I listed above are on this thread as well, some probably came from this thread.

[poseidonsvoice]

Slightly OT, but in the realm of this discussion. 
Did you guys see this?  Project Octagon

What I wouldn't do for a dedicated HT room where I could go all out.  In many ways, Paul has acheived many of the benefits of horns while not really using horns throughout (he uses big waveguides for the highs though.

Josh,

I really have to give this guy the tops for engaging in such a project. Still, there are cheaper ways (in terms of time really) to achieve what he did, i.e. just buy a bunch of Geddes speakers and add subs! His drivers are cheaper but his concepts are really in tune with some of the gurus of waveguide and horn theory.

Really a great project and monumental effort! Truly an inspiration for those of us thinking on the same terms.

Anand.

[nullspace]

Holy shmoly, Josh. Shouldn't you warn aboust NSFW when posting links to horn pr0n? Those concrete Le'Cleach horns, which I've seen any numbers of times now, still blow me away every time I look at them.

Regards,
John

[TRADERXFAN]

So, on that subject, if we were to build a listening room in our LAB, what would be an optimum dimensions? Is there a shape other than rectangular that works best acoustically.

This is better question for the acoustics circle. Here is one answer, which I have seen echo'd a bit by others
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72432.msg679120#msg679120

-Tony

[JoshK]

Holy shmoly, Josh. Shouldn't you warn aboust NSFW when posting links to horn pr0n? Those concrete Le'Cleach horns, which I've seen any numbers of times now, still blow me away every time I look at them.

Regards,
John

Horn pr0n, lol.  I love it.  "Do I make you horny?"  (in my best austin powers voice)

[TRADERXFAN]

Holy shmoly, Josh. Shouldn't you warn aboust NSFW when posting links to horn pr0n? Those concrete Le'Cleach horns, which I've seen any numbers of times now, still blow me away every time I look at them.

Regards,
John

Horn pr0n, lol.  I love it.  "Do I make you horny?"  (in my best austin powers voice)

need the "baby" at the end for Austin powers, don't you?

[JoshK]

My favorite (visually) horn system.



Those scorpion midbass horns are badass.

[nullspace]

More love for Elctronluv. Cogent represented as well.

[JoshK]

Josh's stuff is about the only hi-fi gear that actually makes me want to spend inordinate amounts of money on hi-fi.  I think most of the gear in this price range and beyond in general is a joke.  At least Josh's works double as artistic scultures.  Art you may or may not enjoy, but none-the-less are a serious conversation piece.

[turkey]

I stated my opinions on advantages in post #6.  I'll reiterate what I believe is key:

1) lower distortion, lower compression.  I think what people talk about in dynamics is proof that other other speakers have a lot more compression and distortion than people realize.  Headroom spells lower distortion at typical listening levels.
2) sensitivity, somewhat related to dynamics, but places less burden on amps leading to lower distortion, and most importantly on the harmonics that matter.
3) controlled dispersion and potential for even power response.

I might change the order of these, but I agree with what you're saying.

(I'd put them, in order of importance, as 3, 1, 2.)

[turkey]

Project Octagon appears to have some of the subject  matter and all of the spirit of this thread.

Wouldn't we all like to have a large dedicated space? I think at times about the pole barns around here. They're used for hay storage and are just a roof without walls. Some of them are I-beam construction. My daydream involves having one of those constructed with radiant heat in the slab and straw bails between the girders for walls. It could be soundproof, acoustically dead, energy-efficient and cavernous for relatively small bucks. The interior could be configured and way you like since inside walls would carry no load. Does this dream have merit? Hell, you could build bass horns right into it at one end and your soaking tub at the other. Or create a second floor at one end with a kitchen under it. What are ideal dimensions for a good sized horn room? How big does the building need to be for an empty nester couple? Include a LAB in the design and we've come full circle.

I've thought of a similar type of building, but with the inside done in "Soft Wall." It's a substitute for drywall that I've seen used in finished basements. It's attractive, absorbs sound well, and seems to be fairly inexpensive.

http://www.softwallfinishingsystems.com

What I would like is a small outbuilding (mancave?) that's part listening room/HT, and part workshop and equipment storeroom. Kind of a cozy little building for my hobby.

[macrojack]

Turkey - This is an excellent discovery that could serve to customize listening rooms for audiophiles everywhere whose families think they belong in a padded room.

Seriously, I was very interested in the idea as something I can incorporate in my fantasy listening room. Yesterday I spoke with a guy who builds metal buildings. He wasn't terribly precise about costs but it seems that the larger your building, the less it will cost you per square foot. For 2500 sq. ft. and up, you can get the pad, the shell, insulation, doors and windows for around $20 per sq. ft. That's $50,000 before you customize your interior and add plumbing and electrical. Cost of radiant floor heat preinstalled in the pad would be minimal. I picture an urban loft sort of space out in the country for my horns. Seems like incorporating basshorns in the design might be doable as well. Do any of the rest of you fantasize like this?

[turkey]

Seems like incorporating basshorns in the design might be doable as well. Do any of the rest of you fantasize like this?

I'm not sure. In the past I knew someone who had heard large concrete built-in bass horns in the UK and simply raved about them. He said it was the only way to get good bass in the home. I really liked the idea. I even started building concrete folded bass horns from an article in an old issue of Wireless World. (I was doing something wrong evidently, and the concrete kept cracking on me.)

I toyed with the idea of getting a pair of Community Light & Sound Leviathan bass horns too. (Shown here without the optional flare extensions.) A local music store had a pair that they were willing to sell very cheaply. (None of the bands wanted them because they were impossible to haul around. They were done in bright yellow too, which could have been another reason they weren't selling.)



More recently, I have setup a few inexpensive subs like Earl Geddes recommends, and the results are excellent. I'm extremely happy with how my system does bass these days.

I'd lean towards wanting to spend the money on a larger listening room, rather than large horns attached to a smaller room. I'm just not sure at this point that bass horns are needed (or even suitable) for the home listening environment.

[Coytee]

I'm just not sure at this point that bass horns are needed (or even suitable) for the home listening environment.

Might give something like these a listen 

They (the bass bins) were originally designed for home use, to replace the Klipschorn as the Klipschorn II.  PWK passed away before they could finalize a design for home use and the company shelved them, incorporating them instead, into their cinema lineup.  Sound pretty incredible. 

[JoshK]

I'm just not sure at this point that bass horns are needed (or even suitable) for the home listening environment.

I am in that camp as well.  I think bass horns are completely impractical for home use and even sub-optimal (pun).  I think the Geddes' approach to bass makes way more sense.  Its is much more likely to be successful (you probably have to accept where the bass horn goes even if it is very non-ideal) and much more likely to give an even response since it immenates from multiple locations rather than one or two.

However, midbass horns still have their appeal.  The above picture is still a midbass horn IMHO, although blurring the distinction.  If I am correct and that is the Jubilee, it looks like its lower corner is 50hz and upper around 500hz.  That is still midbass. 

Romy the cat, who I don't often quote, raises the point about response dropping quickly below the Fc of a horn, so unless it is a HUGE horn, you give up a lot of lower bass with horns without subs.

[Coytee]

If I am correct and that is the Jubilee, it looks like its lower corner is 50hz and upper around 500hz.  That is still midbass. 

It is the Jubilee.  I do not know it's technical output paramaters however, I DO know that for those people using an active crossover, we have slipped in a PEQ at 32hz to add some bark to it.  When it was discussed, Roy (co-designer) said we could add this PEQ because even though this is a horn loaded bass....  it is STILL a driver inside a sealed chamber.

It is something to be heard.