[JohnR]

macrojack - nice looking horns.

I've been somewhat interested in these (the AH-550):

  http://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html

JohnR

[macrojack]

Thanks for the compliment, John, but these are my horns:

http://www.acoustichorn.com/news/index.php?id=6580107509037206863

Click on the pictures to enlarge them. Bill includes some info in his commentary.

These horns have a narrow dispersion of 40 degrees, that's only 20 degrees off axis on each side, so you want to sit back at least 10 feet. Many of the guys on here live in large cities where indoor space can be damn expensive. For them, this approach may not be viable. My room is about 330 sq. ft. and bigger would surely be better. Off axis response, while not horrible, certainly doesn't justify the investment. Sitting in the very wide sweet spot pays for itself handsomely.

[acwd1950]

I built my first horn a folded one. BIB. Used a 4 inch Tang Band fullrange driver. They are pretty good. I would like to build another pair but use a 8 inch TB driver instead. I used a calculator that I found online. Because I dont understand all of the theory or math thats involved. Just enough to try them for the first time and to be dangerous LOL

Steve

[sts9fan]

Nice link John.  Those look nice and pretty cheap.

[JDUBS]

When I lived in Chicago, I used a pair of Oris 150 horns and AER-BD3 drivers.  Here's a pic:



They were awesome and I'll have big horns again.  The nice thing about these is that they reach down to 150-160Hz.

-Jim

[konut]

My experience with horns goes back to 1972 when I worked sound at the Ohio University coffee house. We used Altec Lansing A7, or Voice of the Theater. This was a sectoral horn with a compression driver and a bass reflex cab with exponential horn on a 15" bass driver. 
http://www.alteclansing.com/index.php?file=north_product_detail&iproduct_id=a7
These were very efficient and could fill a large ballroom with rock vocals using a 60 watt amp per speaker. They sounded great, BUT they sounded like horns. The sectoral horn had a characteristic 'ring' to them that I can still hear on tapes that I can listen to today of recordings made back then. A lot of horns have a resonant ring to them if they are not properly dampened. Either the material they are made of is not thick enough or the material itself has a resonance. Even if a horn is properly dampened, there is a characteristic horn sound dependant on the amount of diffraction caused by the geometric profile of the horn flare. Over time this can ultimately lead to dissatisfaction, and lead to seeking something better. Knowing all this caused me to shy away from horns until I saw the SP Technology products here on AC. I now own a pair of SP Tech, now Aether Audio, Timepiece Minis. Bob Smith has solved some of the inherent problems of horns and compromised their shortcomings in just the right way to offer an outstanding product. I'm extremely happy with mine. See my avatar. 

[sts9fan]

Anyone know the similarities between sp tech and gedlee? 
They look similar but I am not sure if it is only skin deep.  I have read accounts that they do not sound similar.  Is sp tech cd?

[konut]

Firstly, Bob uses a dome instead of a compression driver. Differences were noted earlier in the thread. Secondly, its not strictly an OS but starts as an OS and flares to a different geometry. Thirdly, Bob uses no foam in the horn to reduce diffraction. To be sure, there are other differences, but these are the major ones. My biggest concern when considering purchase was the crossover. I was coming from Omega A8s using a Visaton B200 driver that was was a response to displeasure with 2 and 3 way designs. Respected sources indicated that there was no sign of crossover artifacts. I only bring this up to point out that just because one aspect of speaker design might be superior, or solve a previous problem, other aspects must be gotten right to achieve superior results. 

[doug s.]

When I lived in Chicago, I used a pair of Oris 150 horns and AER-BD3 drivers...

They were awesome and I'll have big horns again.  The nice thing about these is that they reach down to 150-160Hz.

-Jim

my first real taste of horns was in 1996 when i heard the jadis eurythmie's at the nyc s'phile show.  i was extremely taken - best sound at the show, imo.  i yust kept going back to that room.  several years later, i heard the first iteration of the avantgarde duo's at a local stereo shop (deja vu audio), and again, i was taken in...

now, i am also enjoying a pair of oris 150's, w/ decware- modded fostex fe206e's.  before, i had stock fe206e's; also excellent, imo.  my present listening room, tho quite large, at ~750sf, only allows for a seated distance of ~8'-9' from the mouth of the horns, as the room is a studio apartment, that has to make do w/the rest of apartment life.  while ok, i can tell you w/o a doubt, that 12' away, or even more, would be better.  careful shopping got me these horns, w/the custom-upgraded klipsch lascala bass-bins, (beefed-up cabinets & fostex 15" pro-audio drivers), for ~$2k - a freaking bargain, imo.  (i am still using my vmps larger subs, crossed to the bass-bins at 80hz; all is actively crossed over & eq'd w/a deqx.)  i love the sound, and haven't switched in/out any of my other excellent, (imo), speakers in over a year...  (of course, part of that is the fact that i really don't have anywhere else to put these big honkers, if i were to hook up anything else!    )




presently, i have switched the subs w/the horns, to get them even further from the listening position.  and, the room is actually a bit wider than indicated by the pic - the room bumps out ~3', yust past where you see the side walls in the foto.  also, the pioneer/tad ribbon super-tweeters wisible in the pics are not connected - no need, as i get flat response from the oris/fostex set-up out to 22khz...

doug s.

[mgalusha]

Anyone know the similarities between sp tech and gedlee? 
They look similar but I am not sure if it is only skin deep.  I have read accounts that they do not sound similar.  Is sp tech cd?

I have a set of the Geddes Abbeys and also a set of SP Tech Timepieces though a quite old version. I'm sure the newer ones are different. To my ears they do not sound very similar.

The SP's have a lower sensitivity and can suck up power like a sponge while the Abbeys are quite easy to drive. Obviously the wave guide is a different profile as is the use of the foam in the Geddes design. The SP's play quite a bit lower in the bass while subs are mandatory for the Abbeys if one wants any real bass.

I prefer the Abbeys but that is my preference, I am not in any way discounting the SP Tech/Aether Audio speakers. As one of the few who actually own both I'm in a position to choose.

I will say that without the foam, the Abbeys are more like what I consider a traditional horn in sound and I don't much care for them that way. One visitor who has heard them mentioned he might try some type of open cell foam in his Altecs.

The pair of horns I've heard that floor me every time are the big Cogent horns that Chris Brady of Teres Audio owns. He has added ion-o-vac plasma tweeters since this photo. They are just so freakin' immediate.

[doug s.]

mike, you said, re: chris brady's horns:  "...They are just so freakin' immediate..."  that, in a nutshell, sums up what attracted me to the eurythmie's, and to the duo's.  and, it's why i love my oris set-up.  something about the immediacy of big horns makes it harder to go back to other designs...

doug s.

[macrojack]

Agree completely.

Mike, do you know what Chris's crossover points are? I believe I heard somewhere that those Cogent field coils and larger horns reach down to 250 Hz. That's nice but I don't need it for the price difference. I'm saving my envy for his bass horns. How low do they go?

[mgalusha]

Mike, do you know what Chris's crossover points are? I believe I heard somewhere that those Cogent field coils and larger horns reach down to 250 Hz. That's nice but I don't need it for the price difference. I'm saving my envy for his bass horns. How low do they go?

Tom,

I don't know the specifics. I do know he reworked the crossovers and he mentioned that changing the crossover point by only a small amount made a substantial difference. The bass horns go pretty low but I believe he has subs as well, at least last time I was over a few months ago.

[mgalusha]

I know exactly what you're saying Doug. I get a lot of that with my Abbeys but not to the same degree. Now that I've lived with reasonably high efficiency horn type speakers for a while I don't think I can go back to a more conventional setup. I love the immediacy and dynamic envelope. I picked up an 845 based SET a couple of weeks ago and I'm starting to see the attraction.

mike, you said, re: chris brady's horns:  "...They are just so freakin' immediate..."  that, in a nutshell, sums up what attracted me to the eurythmie's, and to the duo's.  and, it's why i love my oris set-up.  something about the immediacy of big horns makes it harder to go back to other designs...

[JohnR]

I too would be more interested in knowing more about crossover points and so on. For example, if a compression driver manufacturer recommends a specific crossover point, it must surely be OK to use a lower frequency or lower slope for domestic use, where the compression driver will be padded down 10 or more dB to match the mid (/woofer).

I personally would be very interested to know more about experiences (and crossover information - frequency, slopes, active/passive) with a (wide band) 15" crossing to a horn and compression driver.

[macrojack]

Mike,

I'm going to have to contact Bill Woods about those speakers. It's his design built around Cogent's drivers and I remember when I told him about Chris having them he said he had been there when they were installed. That's about all I recall. Oswald Mill uses the same horns as well but they have a bass reflex cabinet more similar to mine.

I wonder why more people aren't switching to horns. After every show you hear raves about the OMA room or Classic Audio Reproductions. Obviously they go over well. The stumbling block must be the price of finished systems. OMA's horn speakers at RMAF last year were like $65,000 and Cogent gets $15,000 for just the mid range drivers. Chris must have laid out mortgage money for that speaker system he has. Gedlee looks affordable though. What did your project cost and how much skill did it require?

[macrojack]

JohnR - When I was buying my horns from Bill I asked him about crossovers and how I should pursue that. He set up a system like mine and determined the points and slopes and corrections I would need. Then I bought my Drive Rack and just punched in his suggestions. It worked out very well and subsequent experimentation on my part never improved on anything.

Bill made it foolproof so he could enable this fool. I'm a very happy customer.

I told him at one point that he seemed to be the leading authority on horns and he said that title belongs to Tom Danley.
Danley's stuff doesn't appear to me to be scaled or dressed for home use.

In case any of you don't know, Bill has been designing professional speakers for over 30 years and was the chief design engineer for Yorkville Sound for 18 years. He's semi-retired now and continues to experiment with horn development in his home laboratory/workshop in rural Hastings, Ontario. He was very available for conversation and questions when I was dealing with him. He knows this stuff well and loves to talk about it. Most importantly, he made it possible for someone with my limited resources to own world class horns. Mine are made of 12 "petals" of inch thick cherry wood joined to form the conical horn shape. Part two included in the price is a powder coated cast aluminum throat adaptor machined to accept any driver you want to use within a certain size range. Mine are B&C DCX 50 (2 inch) compression drivers that Bill recommended. The horns were about $2300/pr. and the drivers were about $1000. My old JBL L-200 were already here so I used them as bass speakers. I've seen the same ones for sale on line for around $1100/pr. The dbx Drive Rack PA from Amazon was $399 and I paid another $95 for the dbx calibration mic. So far the whole project is under $5K. I paid a metal worker $100 to fabricate a pair of brackets to mount the horns above the bass cabinets but I'm sure you guys would make your own.

These look good and sound great. I figure I have something very comparable to the OMA system that was at RMAF last year for about $60,000 less and I have active crossover, parametric eq, graphic eq, time delay, and room correction that was not included in his package. This definitely bears investigation. As Bill says, it's an heirloom product - it should hold up well for generations.

As I stated at the top of this thread, I am not a Lab type but this was easy even for me. For you guys it will probably only be a starting point. I was a customer for Bill. You might be his collaborators.

[JoshK]

Lots of horn lovers talk about how the immediacy is only matched with planar speakers.  Except that horns have slam, planars don't. 

I think the hardest part of Chris Brady's crossover is going to be the time delay/alignment.  How can you possibly do that in the analog domain?  His system is ripe for a digital crossover that can delay substantially the HF horn to match the LF horn.

I do like that he aligned the mouths of horns though.  Most hornies align the drivers in an attempt to match the acoustic centers for time alignment, but that results in the time alignment for only the on-axis direction.  Move off axis and they are no longer time aligned.  Therefore the power response isn't even into the room. I never thought of that before JohnK pointed it out, but its true.  Then again most hornies don't seem to concern themselves with power response.



Anyway, I am rambling on again. 

[JoshK]

JohnR - When I was buying my horns from Bill I asked him about crossovers and how I should pursue that. He set up a system like mine and determined the points and slopes and corrections I would need.

I used to think his horns were way too expensive.  Then when I realized that he designs your speakers for you when you buy his horns, the value proposition started to make more sense. 

[sts9fan]

Those AH!300 wood horns are heirlooms for sure.  Simply stunning inho.

The Gedlee speaker kits did run $1800 for the 10" and $2600 for the 12".  I think he has increased his prices but the kits are also easier as I think the cabs are pre glued.  The guy never stops tweaking so it can be hard to keep up. 
I got the 10" but it seems like 9 out of 10 have the 12".  I have a small room and the sale of my old speakers completely payed for the kit so it was perfect fit.  I would say I put another $200 in for paint, glue, bondo and random supplys.
I am not 100% clear on the advatages or the 12" over the 10".