[Laundrew]

So I guess the writings on the wall for high-end audio manufacturers as well?

Goodbye, James. 
 

Crap - and I just bought some new speakers

james

Just make sure Bryston stays in business for another 19 years and 10 months (give or take)

[Laundrew]

The audio snobbery, rudeness and disdain that I have felt from high-end brick and mortar audio retailers seems to be more prevalent in that industry than others....
 
I wonder what it is about audio that brings out the worst in salespeople from some of these stores?
 
Steve

Elitism?

For some strange reason, the term "Blunt Skulls" just popped into my mind from the movie "Cone Heads." If these highly arrogant, self-absorbed, most obtuse and conceitedly egotistical starched suits drives away only 10 customers per year due to their "holier than thou" attitudes, they theoretically can loss hundreds of thousand dollars in sales...

What do the ?Pacleds? always say in Star Trek?

[macrojack]

This situation isn't really about market forces in the normal sense. It's more like market abdication. Component audio took hold in the late seventies and entered nearly every household. In the go-go eighties, when penny stocks and Beemers flourished, high end audio found a hungry market among newly affluent yuppies. This morphed over time into the time in the nineties that many of us reminisce about today. Earlier I referred to what passes for a high end audio culture today as holdovers. As a trip to any show will demonstrate, we are mostly aging and nearing retirement. Many that I know have lost interest or have just stopped buying. In numerous cases, other priorities have taken precedence. A goodly number have chosen DYI as a variation on the theme. Many have discovered that you get a lot more for your buck purchasing previously owned gear.

Combine all of the above with reduced purchasing power and the limits of normal human life expectancy and the factory direct and internet options, and things look bleak indeed for the B&M guys.

As for manufacturers, there are too many. As the pie shrinks, so too will the slices. The best small, one person, low overhead companies will hang in there until the proprietors lose interest, lose abilities, or die.
Among the biggies, You have to expect Audio Research, Bryston, and others to persist because they have a lot of traction and a strong reputation. There will always be some interest in this stuff but the shrinkage we have observed so far will increase exponentially over the next 10 years. 

[Stu Pitt]

So I guess the writings on the wall for high-end audio manufacturers as well?

james

I think the writing's on the wall for any company that doesn't adapt.  Not just audio.  Bryston has the advantage of the professional market.  Very few others do.  But if Bryston doesn't find ways to re-invent itself and serve the next crowd, so to speak, they'll probably die out too.

Everyone hates the iPod for some odd reason.  Its not hifi, but that doesn't make it bad.  What else has brought more music to more people?  Isn't that really what its all about?



There's a bunch of reasons why hifi is headed where it is IMO.  Here's a couple -

There's no shortage of douche bags selling the gear.

Very few companies want to adapt to the changing market or seem to know what the next generation of audiophiles wants - 
Keep it simple.  Most people in my demographic (33 y/o) want multipurpose products with little to no physical media.  Take a Naim Unity, eliminate the CD player and add a few digital inputs.  Make it your entry level product affordable to late 20's/30 somethings that don't have a ton of money, but will pay a bit more for a product that's easy to use, doesn't dominate the space, is built well, and sounds good.

Very few companies seem interested in gaining new customers -
Everyone complains that hifi is dying, but no one is doing much about it.  Advertising solely in places like Stereohile and TAS is preaching to the choir.  Why do most people think Bose is the best?  Because Bose told them so.  No one is telling them any different.  No company is challenging them.  Very few people have heard of hifi companies.  Ask people on the street to name the best stereo companies.  They'll name Bose, JBL, Polk, Sony, Pioneer, maybe Denon and H/K.  How many will name Bryston?  McIntosh?  Audio Research?  Naim?  Rega?  Word of mouth referrals aren't getting the job done anyomre.

Furthermore, why aren't their any hifi shops in malls?  I think a store that had lower priced gear like NAD, Rotel, and Cambridge could do well.  Throw a higher end line in there like Bryston or McIntosh.  People will ask why it costs more, and will be interested in hearing it.  In said store, also sell iPods and music.  Apple figured out how to sell more computers - the iPod.  People came in for an iPod and left with a new computer.  Think about it.

Everyone knows the iPod and mp3s sound like crap - 
Younger people aren't as stupid as most hifi people think they are.  They go to a ton of concerts and hear live music all the time.  Its not that they think music sounds that way, its that they want convenience.  People don't want stacks of CDs and/or albums in their living room.  They don't want refridgerator sized speakers flanking their TV.  Less is more.  Very few people want multiple boxes.  People don't mind if the stereo is part of the room, they just don't want it to dominate the room.  Furthermore, does anyone advertise to them?  Anyone other than Bose?


The best way to get the next generation of audiophiles is to combine convenience with great sound and build quality for a reasonable price, and let people know about it.  Anyone who thinks those things can't be combined is just making excuses.

[James Tanner]

Boy there is really some interesting stuff here. In some cases I get the feeing we have to keep the sleeping pills hidden from some  and in others I want to buy more stock in well run audio companies 
 
Just a point, when I was developing into the crazed audiophile that you see today... it happen over a long period of time. My dad was an avid audio hobbyist through the late 50's and 60's and I grew up with what was in the day quality audio in the home. As a teenager and young adult though I was into 8 tracks (in the car) and Cassettes with a new thing called Dolby noise reduction!  I even installed a 'reverberation' decoder in my car to make the radio sound really cavernous!

Fidelity was the furthest thing from my mind -- a fast car and great looking women to take to the Drive-in Movies ruled the day. After leaving home and purchasing my own stereo to fill the wall space in my new apartment I wondered why I never turned it on much.  Then I heard a Dynaco system a friend had and was smitten. From that day onward I was totally involved in trying to improve my home listening experience.

So guys is there any chance this ipod crowd (or a least some percentage of them) will mature towards more realistic and quality sound?  I get the feeling today that most ipod people 'collect' music rather than 'listen' to it?

James

[Stu Pitt]

So guys is there any chance this ipod crowd (or a least some percentage of them) will mature towards more realistic and quality sound?  I get the feeling today that most ipod people 'collect' music rather than 'listen' to it?

James

The iPod has changed everything.  I genuinely think they're listening to music, not just collecting it.  I don't think they're critically listening to it, from a sound quality stand point.  They definitely know better sound exists, but they either can't afford it, or its no convenient enough.

Most people I know use their computer as their main home stereo.  All the music's there.  No CD changing involved, especially when company is over.  Contrary to popular 'audiophile belief,' they're not arguing it doesn't sound as good as a traditional stereo does.  Its just more convenient and economical.

[macrojack]

Stu's right - they listen. But Jim's right too - they pride themselves on how many songs are loaded. As for critically listening, how could they? The stuff that they like is cacaphonic. Their car stereos are overwhelmed by bass. They definitely are not interested in pure notes or crystalline vocals. Voices shriek and music is electronic, contrived and belligerent.

But please notice that Apple is introducing products that stimulate the market and seduce new buyers while high end audio is busy looking for new bottles for old wine.

The reason I predict the demise of the high end is simple enough. It deals with a closed loop clientele that is closing. Our numbers are inevitably shrinking as we leave the scene by one cause or another and are not replaced, one for one, by newcomers. Fact is, we are not being replaced at all.

I have two sons. One is a 19 year old college freshman and the other a 17 year old H.S. senior. The first has an Imac and a MacBook Pro and a Ipod Touch. The younger has an HP desktop and an Ipod Touch. Both have an NAD preamp, NHT M-OO/S-OO speakers and Grado 325i phones. They know and like a lot of good music from days of yore. They have free use of my sound system. No one their age has better taste of more exposure. They are both trained musicians. But they listen to music through their headphones from their computers almost exclusively. The only real exception has to do with vinyl - my main system is still the only place to play records but they do very little of that.

I offer the personal info to lend credence to my observations and to illustrate that they are exhibiting a preference as outlined by Stu for convenience and privacy. Their choices have nothing to do with access or exposure.

[alexone]

if you want the young people to mature towards higher quality music then you have to show 'em who Bryston is and what this company can do for them. i know that money matters...Bryston's and the younger customer's. but let them know that you are there. don't be too shy, James.
example: when i walk through the big shopping malls and go into an electronic market i can see almost any type of manufacturer. high end as well. Bryston is missing. no secret that i can find an Apple store, of course. keep in mind that "we" are a dying breed...the younger people don't really want to read magazines anymore. they want to see and touch things. i am located at the other side of the pond so that's one story. but last year i walked down the Yonge Street in Toronto and went to Sears (former Eaton's). Bryston? nowhere to find. sure you do have high end dealers down there. but probably it's time to think it over who is representing Bryston products and last but not least where to find it?! my father-in-law who is very interested in music and electronic gear since 30 years didn't even know about Bryston until i told him about it. don't wanna say that he is the one and only reference for a possible Bryston customer. but in some way that reflects the situation especially if we are talking about "the other side of the pond".



al.

[Stu Pitt]

...As for critically listening, how could they? The stuff that they like is cacaphonic.

I love it...

My grandfather criticized the Beatles.  That's not music, that's garbage!
My parents criticized Metallica and Pearl Jam.  That's not music, that's crap!
I criticize my nephew's music.  It's not music, it's crap!

[macrojack]

You're absolutely right, Stu. I sound like a predictable curmudgeon. I know it, I hate it, and I can't help it. Somebody told me that the secret to RAP is the C is silent. That comment probably doesn't come off as well in print as it does spoken, but I think the message probably reaches you intact.

So --- we have agreed, I guess, that retailers are dead men walking, manufacturers need to find support from youngsters because their primary audience is evaporating, and kids can't be bothered by anything that isn't hand held or capable of communication or both. I read someplace that even  desktop computers are losing market share to laptops. These young people do not want to be tethered. Hardware must be minimal in size, weight and price. Color choices are nice. Does Bryston offer free monograms?

[Laundrew]

if you want the young people to mature towards higher quality music then you have to show 'em who Bryston is and what this company can do for them.

Want to hear a good one?

All of my audio components (JBL, Bryston and Esoteric) I purchased this year were from audio manufacturers that I never knew existed....

[Laundrew]

So guys is there any chance this ipod crowd (or a least some percentage of them) will mature towards more realistic and quality sound?  I get the feeling today that most ipod people 'collect' music rather than 'listen' to it?

James

The iPod has changed everything.  I genuinely think they're listening to music, not just collecting it.  I don't think they're critically listening to it, from a sound quality stand point.  They definitely know better sound exists, but they either can't afford it, or its no convenient enough.

Most people I know use their computer as their main home stereo.  All the music's there.  No CD changing involved, especially when company is over.  Contrary to popular 'audiophile belief,' they're not arguing it doesn't sound as good as a traditional stereo does.  Its just more convenient and economical.

My wife exclusively uses her iPod in a Dock in her portable radio. She is not concerned with the quality of her music and only enjoys it as background ambience and has no interest in listening to her music on any other system.

As for the younger people and high end audio equipment, money is much better spent on the mortgage. Pay the house off first and then buy the toys you want (sound advice from my dad)!

Be well...

[Laundrew]

So I guess the writings on the wall for high-end audio manufacturers as well?

james

I think the writing's on the wall for any company that doesn't adapt.  Not just audio.  Bryston has the advantage of the professional market.  Very few others do.  But if Bryston doesn't find ways to re-invent itself and serve the next crowd, so to speak, they'll probably die out too.

Everyone hates the iPod for some odd reason.  Its not hifi, but that doesn't make it bad.  What else has brought more music to more people?  Isn't that really what its all about?



There's a bunch of reasons why hifi is headed where it is IMO.  Here's a couple -

There's no shortage of douche bags selling the gear.

Very few companies want to adapt to the changing market or seem to know what the next generation of audiophiles wants - 
Keep it simple.  Most people in my demographic (33 y/o) want multipurpose products with little to no physical media.  Take a Naim Unity, eliminate the CD player and add a few digital inputs.  Make it your entry level product affordable to late 20's/30 somethings that don't have a ton of money, but will pay a bit more for a product that's easy to use, doesn't dominate the space, is built well, and sounds good.

Very few companies seem interested in gaining new customers -
Everyone complains that hifi is dying, but no one is doing much about it.  Advertising solely in places like Stereohile and TAS is preaching to the choir.  Why do most people think Bose is the best?  Because Bose told them so.  No one is telling them any different.  No company is challenging them.  Very few people have heard of hifi companies.  Ask people on the street to name the best stereo companies.  They'll name Bose, JBL, Polk, Sony, Pioneer, maybe Denon and H/K.  How many will name Bryston?  McIntosh?  Audio Research?  Naim?  Rega?  Word of mouth referrals aren't getting the job done anyomre.

Furthermore, why aren't their any hifi shops in malls?  I think a store that had lower priced gear like NAD, Rotel, and Cambridge could do well.  Throw a higher end line in there like Bryston or McIntosh.  People will ask why it costs more, and will be interested in hearing it.  In said store, also sell iPods and music.  Apple figured out how to sell more computers - the iPod.  People came in for an iPod and left with a new computer.  Think about it.

Everyone knows the iPod and mp3s sound like crap - 
Younger people aren't as stupid as most hifi people think they are.  They go to a ton of concerts and hear live music all the time.  Its not that they think music sounds that way, its that they want convenience.  People don't want stacks of CDs and/or albums in their living room.  They don't want refridgerator sized speakers flanking their TV.  Less is more.  Very few people want multiple boxes.  People don't mind if the stereo is part of the room, they just don't want it to dominate the room.  Furthermore, does anyone advertise to them?  Anyone other than Bose?


The best way to get the next generation of audiophiles is to combine convenience with great sound and build quality for a reasonable price, and let people know about it.  Anyone who thinks those things can't be combined is just making excuses.

Interesting observations! If I remember correctly, only one audio dealer I visited was in a mall - Bay Bloor Radio.

As for Bose....

When we moved to Goose Bay, our speakers were destroyed by the movers and the only speakers sold in Goose Bay at the time by the local audio dealer were Sony and Bose. I ended up purchasing a pair of 701's and 501's. I used the 501's for rears. I thought the preformance of the 701's would get better out of the show room, but I was wrong. A number of years later, we moved back to Ontario. Our friends from the east coast came out for a visit. While we were watching a movie, he commented how he thought the sound of the 701's were awesome. "You really like them?" I inquired. "Yes," my friend stated...

I told him that after the movie that they were his. "How much," he inquired. "Free," I stated, you only have to help me carry them out to your car. The 501's bookshelves was a much better speaker.

[danman]

You lived in Goose Bay?

[Laundrew]

You lived in Goose Bay?

Hello danman,

Yes, almost 4 years

Be well...

[Laundrew]

As for manufacturers, there are too many. As the pie shrinks, so too will the slices. The best small, one person, low overhead companies will hang in there until the proprietors lose interest, lose abilities, or die.
Among the biggies, You have to expect Audio Research, Bryston, and others to persist because they have a lot of traction and a strong reputation. There will always be some interest in this stuff but the shrinkage we have observed so far will increase exponentially over the next 10 years.

Some audio manufacturers are moving to China. I was looking in Google and I see that Krell is producing an integrated amplifier in China. I wonder how long it will take until they start producing more models in China. Oh well, perhaps I can pick up a Krell Amplifier with a "happy face" markdown sticker on it at Walmart in a couple of years for my wife .

She will most likely want to keep her iPod...

[danman]

I am a little surprised for Krell but it may be a move to sell an amp at a lower cost for the mass market. Not sure how this will affect quality but I am sure that something has to give and that would be the first place!

The future is definately in downloads and outboard DAC's. Apple is about to launch a 24bit download site within the next year from what I have been told by the representative of Plurison Distributor. Seems we are headed in this direction! Maybe there is hope for some of the younger generation to finally listen to some quality sound for a change!

[Curly Woods]

The word on the street is that Krell is no more.  Dan and Rhonda were locked out of their manufacturing facilities by their landlord for being excessively delinquent on their lease.   Now this is just what I heard so it may not be true, but the reference was very reliable industry person.  I guess we will see shortly what is going on for sure.  Sad if true, but the market is drying up everyday with the shrinking middle class.

[wrathchild]

Interesting observation Laundrew, 1.5 yrs ago I wouldn't have recognized a single manufacturer of my 2 ch stuff. All of which I purchased due to word of mouth, none from advertising. I think part of my attraction for what I bought was that it wasn't main stream, and wasn't made in China. I have the utmost of respect for co's that continue product lines based on build quality, not sales quantity, and 'in house' manufacture.  I also understand it being more and more difficult to do so these days. Overseas manufacture only means cost savings..cost savings only means loss of quality. That is obvious in any market, any product.
  I think this hobby, like any other, has and will cultivate new younger fans. Regardless of their source equip., they will still need amps and speakers.
  This has/will always be a small niche in the market, because the world is becoming more and more price driven. Those people that are primarily price driven buyers seldom step into the 'high end' of any purchase, automatically cutting the customer base for expensive equip very small. The same is true of any other hobby or interest. Its my opinion that peoples wallets get looser when it's something they want (toys), and tighter when it's something they need. Music, being a universal and long lived passion, will always have a following of those willing to pay for quality.
  Salesman A at a high end store was the first guy I saw, the first time I went there. He didn't give me the time of day. I have since then purchased from salesman B, who gave me a moment of his time, equip. running 5 digits. Salesman A still doesn't bother when I go in. I have done that to customers of mine in the past, regretably, and am embarrased for doing it, and make it a point to try not to anymore.

[shep]

I remember years ago when I lived in Zurich (money land) there was a high-end dealer who was really nice and didn't mind us slinking around starry-eyed and drooling. He would even let us touch! and would demonstrate things if he wasn't busy. As long as he didn't have clients with serious intentions he was cool with our lurking. Same time, another place (Singer in NY) the snot nose saleseman either walked away or gave that look like " why are you wasting my air?" I still get angry thinking about this.
The funny part is that in Zurich I used to go with a friend in torn jeans who looked scruffy but was a multi millionaire. DIdn't matter that he didn't buy either. I loved to walk into a shop and look at new gear but frankly and sadly there's no such place within hundreds of miles and anyway everything I've learned since has been on the web and everything I buy as well.