[flintstone]

Hi Dave,

I guess we disagree most on the early reflection thing, my advice is not an "early" reflection...the excepted norm is 10 millisecond "minimum" of delay for dipole rear wave delay. Anything less will not do.....enter the band-aid advice.

Dave

I guess you missed the part where I agreed regarding 10 ms as a good idea (although "accepted norm", which I assume you mean rather than "excepted norm", is questionable).

I'm guessing you also missed the part where I said having a 10 ms delay with no absorption of the early reflection results in a second attack, 10 ms after the initial sound.  Perhaps you don't hear this, in which case you might be considered lucky.

"Band-aid advice"?  That's not nice Dave.
I consider a 10 millisecond delay on an untreated reflection from a live wall quite audible and quite distracting.  Perhaps you don't hear this.  That's okay.  Just enjoy your music. 

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Thanks for fixing my spelling slip. On subject..... given the horrible sound of 99% of todays recordings?....I think my hearing is pretty darn good 

Your advice is horrible, but thats ok....you won't be setting up my stuff for me, and thats all that matters 


Best regards,

Dave

[bdiament]

Hi Dave,

My advice is most definitely "horrible" - if what you're seeking is a delayed second attack at 10 ms in an almost square room with active, mutually reinforcing modes in the 45-50 Hz range and prominent, untreated harmonics in the 90-100 range and 180-200 range.

The key is that you enjoy what you've got. 
Happy listening.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[flintstone]

Hi Dave,

My advice is most definitely "horrible" - if what you're seeking is a delayed second attack at 10 ms in an almost square room with active, mutually reinforcing modes in the 45-50 Hz range and prominent, untreated harmonics in the 90-100 range and 180-200 range.

The key is that you enjoy what you've got. 
Happy listening.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Your sounding like a broken record Barry (which is probably what I would do with one of your records?  )....stick with boxes for advice giving please.


I'll let you have the last word, your the expert 



Dave

[bdiament]

Okay, I'll take it.  And while it will be my last word to you, I would not bet confidently it will be the last word.  That's okay too Dave.

"Your the expert"?
Do you mean "you're the expert"?  Or are you saying I own an expert?

I must say, your outstanding audio expertise and extremely sensitive hearing acuity are exceeded only by your spelling prowess, all of which are handily outdone by your gentlemanly manners.     

Good night, good bye and good luck Dave.

Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[Ethan Winer]

I want any "space" I hear to come from the recording and not be artificially added by the room.

This sums it up pretty well for me too. There are lots of ways to remove the "small room" sound of the room you're in, and diffusion plus absorption is usually better than absorption alone.

--Ethan

[benie]

Hi Barry:

 Just like to Thank you for the tip on Roller Blocks under my panels (Acoustat). I have most of my componets on Roller Blocks and because I am on a Budget, I DIY a few of them.
 I Have a pair of Acoustat X with the Direct Drive Servo Tube amps Modified and my plan was to put roller blocks under them and a while back I got the supplies to make them. But a few Buddies who are into panels told me not to bother, it wouldn't work.

 So I never did it and then I seen your post and thought I would give it a try.
 For now the bearings are in the cups with the plywood of the speakers right on the bearing. I will have to pick up some marble or slate, maybe try the small ones made for bathroom, I'm sure they will roll better then with just the plywood.

 I would have to say your right on the money. The differenrce would be like it was when I first tried them under my CDP!!
 Talk about opening up the soundstage! WOW! much more 3D, very open with alot more air, much more alive with the you are there feeling. I find it helps to get a bit more of an emotional responence from my system as it does have a influence tonal quailties as well.

 As I don't stray to far of OP. I like absorption with Panels and I have had a number of different Maggies, ETs, and Acoustat's.  But then again ,I'm in a small room now.

 Thanks again for the tip, Like you say, give it a try.
Now I can tell my Buddies, to open their mind and give it a try.

     Ken

[Housteau]

I do not own Maggies, but I do have dipoles.  However, they are only dipole from around 280 Hz on up.  I do have a lot of absorption in my room for bass, but many of those treatments were made to be reflective of the higher frequencies.  The main exception to that are the ones in the center of my front wall and those running the peak of my cathedral ceiling.

I purposely keep absorption away from the back wall directly behind my speakers.  Now, I do have towers of 12" tube traps that I can place and adjust behind them in varying distances between them and the wall.  This does alter the presentation.  My prefered choice now is without the tubes being there at all and just using tall artificial plants to break-up and scatter the higher frequencies somewhat.  Since I have a larger 4 piece tower system the back waves have other surfaces to break them up where they do not have a direct path to my listening position.  This is all my room appears to need at this time, but I have little doubt that more diffusion and keeping things live is the way to proceed.

A friend of mine has a Rives Audio designed room, and through its design elements for room control it is more live than mine.  Even though I tried to make a lot of my bass treatments target only the bass, some of that ultimate sparkle I hear in my friends room may have been taken away as well.  By allowing my speakers to work their dipole magic in my room makes up for that, while allowing my room to retain its own strengths in the other areas.  I do not notice an 'artificial' room sound being added in, but that does not mean one isn't there either.  I really don't know not having been present during the making of my recordings.  I do like what is there and it is what makes my room and system unique to me.

[bdiament]

Hi Ken,

Hi Barry:

 Just like to Thank you for the tip on Roller Blocks under my panels (Acoustat). I have most of my componets on Roller Blocks and because I am on a Budget, I DIY a few of them.
 I Have a pair of Acoustat X with the Direct Drive Servo Tube amps Modified and my plan was to put roller blocks under them and a while back I got the supplies to make them. But a few Buddies who are into panels told me not to bother, it wouldn't work.

 So I never did it and then I seen your post and thought I would give it a try.
 For now the bearings are in the cups with the plywood of the speakers right on the bearing. I will have to pick up some marble or slate, maybe try the small ones made for bathroom, I'm sure they will roll better then with just the plywood.

 I would have to say your right on the money. The differenrce would be like it was when I first tried them under my CDP!!
 Talk about opening up the soundstage! WOW! much more 3D, very open with alot more air, much more alive with the you are there feeling. I find it helps to get a bit more of an emotional responence from my system as it does have a influence tonal quailties as well.

 As I don't stray to far of OP. I like absorption with Panels and I have had a number of different Maggies, ETs, and Acoustat's.  But then again ,I'm in a small room now.

 Thanks again for the tip, Like you say, give it a try.
Now I can tell my Buddies, to open their mind and give it a try.

     Ken

Glad to hear of your success with roller bearings.  (I use a DIY type too - my own "Hip Joints" design.)

If your friends stop to actually listen, they may well be in for some smiles themselves.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[J. Royce Baron]

Glad I asked ...  very interesting and useful information.

Safe to say all four corners should be 'super chunked' in 27x28x7.5 room?

My RTA is not looking good, huge null at 50hz followed by valley between 1k to 5k.

   

[bpape]

Where are you sitting in the room?  The length and width are very close to each other.  I can imagine some pretty good peaks and dips if not properly placed.

Front corners - certainly.  Rear corners, maybe, maybe not.  Most likely, center of the rear wall with something thick would be a bit benefit in minimizing modal issues and cancellations off the rear wall.

Bryan

[J. Royce Baron]

Can only utilize the left side of the space due to a 5' wide concrete wall acting as pillar at center of room.

Maggies out 4' from front wall - left speaker 3' from side wall - right speaker is 15' from right wall - 

sitting position is 12'6" from front wall and 7' from left side wall.

[J. Royce Baron]

Am I beyond help Bryan? ... j/k

[bpape]

Try moving your seating forward about 15". 

As for getting the bass under control in general, most likley you'll want the 2 front corners chunked and the wall behind your seat done with something 6-8" thick.  I'd start with that and see where you stand. 

I also suspect the low ceiling is causing some bass problems.  That's the next thing I'd address.

Bryan

[J. Royce Baron]

Thanks Bryan

Chunks will get done using 8lb Rockwool and will play with seating.

Back of room may be a problem with the 57" TV residing there. You see, West wall is for 2 channel/East wall is the HT    anyway, how much of rear wall should I absorb?

[bpape]

Don't kill it a lot.  Just even a 4x4 area would work if centered behind you.

Bryan

[Rob Babcock]

Okay, I'll take it.  And while it will be my last word to you, I would not bet confidently it will be the last word.  That's okay too Dave.

"Your the expert"?
Do you mean "you're the expert"?  Or are you saying I own an expert?

I must say, your outstanding audio expertise and extremely sensitive hearing acuity are exceeded only by your spelling prowess, all of which are handily outdone by your gentlemanly manners.     

Good night, good bye and good luck Dave.

Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Let's all keep it civil, guys.  No need for all the sarcasm.

[bdiament]

Hi Rob,

Let's all keep it civil, guys.  No need for all the sarcasm.

Agreed.
I would hope you saw earlier posts in the exchange.
The post you quoted was a sign-off *in response* to a series of rude ones.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[Rob Babcock]

Hi Rob,

Let's all keep it civil, guys.  No need for all the sarcasm.

Agreed.
I would hope you saw earlier posts in the exchange.
The post you quoted was a sign-off *in response* to a series of rude ones.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

I don't care who started it, I'm finishing it.  Consider this the only warning for all involved.

[J. Royce Baron]

I'm back ... started with the chunks (24x34) two corners almost complete - the final two slices to go on the floor will be seperate - two more to go then on to the panels new shipment of OFI 48 2" arrives tomorrow in the form of 8 bales - the plan is 4" on all panels reflections and otherwise - Bryan stop me now if this is too much.....





Edit: The plan is to cover 30% of the walls then locate trouble spots and treat according.

[NekoAudio]

That's looking pretty good. But it also looks like your Maggies are aimed down towards the floor?

I'm interested in finding out how the sound has improved after you've finished all the treatments.