MM or MC?

JohnR · « **on:** 13 Jul 2009, 11:05 am »

Um, since I've ordered a phono preamp, I need to decide if it's for MM or MC. I don't have a cartridge yet either BTW. My gut tells me that, given my (relatively?) modest ambitions, MM is the most sensible choice. Less fuss, less noise, less cost. Opinions for or against...?

(Tonearm is a modified RB300, if that makes a difference...)

JohnR

Wayner · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 11:19 am »

Audio Technica AT440MLa is in my RB300. Tracks nice @ 1.5 grams. Come with fineline stylus (replaceable).

Wayner

JohnR · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 11:52 am »

OK, so that's MM (c'mon, I had to go look it up!!).

Scott F. · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 12:11 pm »

If it were me I'd go for the MM. MC can be far superior in sound reproduction but it absolutely comes at a co$t. And to be realistic, with the phono stage you just bought, you likely won't be able to take full advantage of the MCs strengths. Sure, it will likely sound quite nice, but it won't be as refined as a premium MC phonostage.

The second issue is the cost of moderately priced MC carts. Your choice is extremely limited in comparison with a MM. There are scads of reasonably priced MMs on the market both new and used. I personally think you stand a better chance finding an MM that synergizes with the phonostage and the rest of your system than with the limited choices in MCs you will have.

The AV phonostage should be a nice starting point with a MM. As you get further into vinyl, you can always trade up as more funds (and desire) becomes available.

......just my $.02

Either way, enjoy the journey

JohnR · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 12:13 pm »

Enough about more funds already, you vinyl guys take the cake

Rocket · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 12:20 pm »

Hi John,

Will the audiovista phono pre take lomc's?

If so I was quoted about $200au for denon dl103 from Frank Prowse Hifi here in Perth. Its a killer cartridge for the price.

Regards

Rod

boycephoto · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 12:35 pm »

Hey John,

Once you figure out MM or MC then the decision comes what brand and model do you go for? I am looking for a new cartridge and don't want to spend the mega bucks that a great MC costs yet I want the the preformance that it can give, I know there is a MM cartridge that gives the best bang for the buck, but what is it? I have a Linn LP-12 w/Ittock LVII

I have been considering the AT 150MLX, Denon DL-160, Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood, Linn Adikt or Goldrign 1042. (the Grados hum in the Linn w/ AC motors) Any suggestions... anyone Thanks

Dave

MaxCast · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 12:45 pm »

Good question. The posts here confirm my almost certain decision to go MM. The scary part for me, besides my first cheep ass player, is how much am I going to have to spend to clean the vinyl to get it to sound good.

JohnR · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 12:46 pm »

Quote from: Rocket on 13 Jul 2009, 12:20 pm

Will the audiovista phono pre take lomc's?

Hm

you would have to ask Boris! That's a low-output MC cartridge? That's pretty low...

I think I'm going to go with MM.

toobluvr · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 01:18 pm »

Quote from: Rocket on 13 Jul 2009, 12:20 pm

Hi John,

Will the audiovista phono pre take lomc's?

............

The Vista Audio Phono-1 is available in both MM and MC versions. See details here:

http://vistaaudio.com/products/Phono/index.htm

Also, I do believe that Boris can customize it for your cartridge's specific gain and loading requirements. See comments here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69781.msg648948;topicseen#new

I have the MM version in on loan. Trust me, you will not go wrong with this unit. Based on my experience with much pricier phono sections, it is killer! At its price, its an absolute steal! My highest recommendations!

John

PS: I have no affiliation whatsoever with Vista Audio, but I do know a good deal when I hear one!

JohnR · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 01:45 pm »

OK, MM it is for me then definitely. Thanks

toobluvr · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 02:08 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 13 Jul 2009, 01:45 pm

OK, MM it is for me then definitely. Thanks

I have no opinion or comment on choosing MM over MC. I use MM and high output MC myself (in the $600 to $1200 range) for it's lower cost, greater value, and sonic performance that to my ears more than meets my requirements.

But I do think that choosing Vista for your phono section is wise.

Congrats and enjoy!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 02:29 pm »

John,

MM is probably the way to go to get started.

However, one moving coil that fits most budgets is the Denon DL-160. It's a high-output moving coil...meaning it will work run into an MM input. It has adequate voltage for most systems. It sounds very, very good.

At least here in the US, it's quite sensibly priced at US$179.

John

WGH · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 02:46 pm »

Quote from: boycephoto on 13 Jul 2009, 12:35 pm

I have been considering the AT 150MLX, Denon DL-160, Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood, Linn Adikt or Goldrign 1042. (the Grados hum in the Linn w/ AC motors) Any suggestions... anyone Thanks

I use the Goldring 1042 (moving magnet), unfortunately I have not heard the other cartridges mentioned so I don't know how it compares. My review of the Goldring: I like it.

My previous cartridge was a Sumiko Talisman Alchemist I and the Goldring sounds much more balanced. The Goldring has excellent bass with a very smooth midrange. The highs are clear without any added brightness and sibilants are not accented. The soundstage is wide and deep. Record surface noise approaches zero with a clean pressing; ticks and pops are not accented at all. The overall character of the Goldring is on the warm side of neutral.

The Goldring 1042 has a Fritz Gyger line contact stylus which is very sensitive to even the slightest change so it will take a bit of tweaking to get it to sound its best. I have noticed the sound change from bright to perfect with just the smallest change in offset angle. A arm that has a height adjustment is best so VTA can be dialed in. I have read reviews where the reviewer said the back of the cartridge almost hits the record which is just wrong, the Goldring might be taller than some cartridges so the arm must be raised so the bottom of the 1042 is parallel to the record.

Depending on where you live the Goldring 1042 may or may not be competitively priced due to the current exchange rate. I got mine from Williams Stylus Shop when the exchange rate was great, right now the best price is $314.26 from Origin Live.

Hope this helps you make a decision.

Wayne

toobluvr · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 03:00 pm »

Hi John.....

I agree. For a beginner, I would say not to focus so much on MM vs MC. But rather choose between high vs low output.

While MM is always high output, I think that many folks equate MC to low output. This is generally the case, but not always. High output MC carts are available. I own two of them. I also own a MM.

So for a beginner, I would recommend anything that is high output (be it MM or MC or Moving Iron), and reasonably priced. Buying h/o is cheaper because no head amp is needed, and the cartridge itself is almost always cheaper.

Low output is not a requirement for good sound. Very satisfying results can be had with high output if wise and synergistic choices are made. Heck, I've been listening to high end vinyl for about 13 years and I have still not "upgraded" to low output....and really feel no need to. I suppose it's possible I don't know what I'm missing, and maybe changing to l/o will really improve things. I dunno. I do know that I have heard pricey LOMC carts in other excellent systems that don't satisfy me any more than mine does.

All my cartridges are high output. Some are MM and some are MC. I don't really care what it's called. I just want it to work with my 40 db / 47k phono section. I get equal satisfaction from both types.

John

woodsyi · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 04:23 pm »

MC version has too low a gain for really LOMC. It would depend on your preamp but I found myself cranking out past 80% to play my .3 mV output moving coil. H/MOMC (for MC version) or MM (for MM version) would be better unless Borris can increase the gain on this MC pre.

toobluvr · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 04:32 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 13 Jul 2009, 04:23 pm

MC version has too low a gain for really LOMC. It would depend on your preamp but I found myself cranking out past 80% to play my .3 mV output moving coil. HOMC or MM would be better unless Borris can increase the gain on this MC pre.

Cartridge output + phono section gain are not the only factors. Overall gain in the system would be determinative. This also includes:

(1) line stage gain
(2) amp input sensitivity
(3) speaker sensitivity

For a given cartridge, a phono section that lacks gain in one system, might be fine in another.....depending on the gain / sensitivity profile of the system as a whole.

If there is inadequate gain with a .3mV MC I don't think the solution is to run a HO cartridge into the MC unit. That will overload it.

Maybe the MC unit simply has a minimum cart output requirement of say maybe .5mV for the average system? In that case, just use a LO cart in the .5 to 1.0 range.

woodsyi · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 04:48 pm »

The MC version comes with 47 ohms loading and MM, 47K ohms (I asuume). Is the loading recommendation same for a typical MM and a HOMC?

woodsyi · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 04:58 pm »

A typical preamp gain of 20 dB should be able to handle HOMC if LOMC is running at 80%. No?

toobluvr · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 05:07 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 13 Jul 2009, 04:48 pm

The MC version comes with 47 ohms loading and MM, 47K ohms (I asuume). Is the loading recommendation same for a typical MM and a HOMC?

They may exist, but I don't know of a MM that does not recommend 47k load.

The load recs on HOMC vary, and are often closer to the rec for LOMC.

My Dynavector 20X-H (HOMC) recommends 47k loading. (There was some controversy over this in another thread: current websites / vendor sites say 1k, but the spec sheet that came with mine says 47k)

My Benz HOMC recommends 1k.

Regardless, I run both into my 47k MM phono section....excellent results all around.

The Vista MM is 47K loading, and MC is 47 ohms. Boris says the same in this thread, and says custom loading available on request:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69781.0