[toobluvr]

A typical preamp gain of 20 dB should be able to handle HOMC if LOMC is running at 80%. No?

Not sure what you are asking.  Your line stage is not the issue here.  Your problem is that the phono signal has inadequate gain when it reaches your line section.

If overall gain is lacking with a .3mV output cart into your MC phono, then you have 2 options with your current system:

(1)  run a higher output MC cart (maybe .5 to 1.0 mV?) into your MC phono section.

or,

(2)  run a high output (1.5 to 3.5 mV range) cartridge (either MM or MC)  into a MM phono section.

A HOMC (ie:  greater than 1.5 mV) is no different than a same spec MM cart (in terms of gain) and will overload a MC phono input.....just like a MM cart would.   Even though it is a MC cart, a MM section is what you need for it from a gain perspective.

Apart from the gain issue, of course you need to be sure that you load the cartridge properly.

I don't want to say that your line stage gain is irrelevant, because it does enter into the overall gain profile.  But it is not the thing to focus on here.  Either of the above options will work with your 20 db line section.

John

[edited for completeness]  If you were to change the overall gain / sensitivity of your system by adding a more sensitive amp and / or speakers with greater efficiency, it is possible that your current cartridge and MC section would then work better.  But this is the hard way of doing things.

[toobluvr]

I see that on special request, Boris can add 6db of gain to the MC unit.

So option (3) might be to run your current .3mV cartridge into the "bumped up" MC section.

[woodsyi]

A typical preamp gain of 20 dB should be able to handle HOMC if LOMC is running at 80%. No?

Not sure what you are asking.  Your line stage is not the issue here.  Your problem is that the phono signal has inadequate gain when it reaches your line section.

If overall gain is lacking with a .3mV output cart into your MC phono, then you have 2 options with your current system:

(1)  run a higher gain MC cart (maybe .5 to 1.0?) into your MC phono section.

or,

(2)  run a MM or HOMC cart (1.5 to 3.5 mV range) into a MM phono section.

A HOMC (ie:  greater than 1.5 mV) is no different than a same spec MM cart (in terms of gain) and will overload a MC phono input.....just like a MM cart would.   Even though it is a MC cart, a MM section is what you need for it from a gain perspective.

Apart from the gain issue, of course you need to be sure that you load the cartridge properly.

I don't want to say that your line stage gain is irrelevant, because it does enter into the overall gain profile.  But it is not the thing to focus on here.  Either of the above options will work with your 20 db line section.

John

A typical HOMC would not be highter than 1.5 mV, I think.  All I am asking is this:  shouldn't I be able to handle an order of difference in gain with a 20 deciBel swing on a line stage?   Would it be an overload to use a HOMC with the Vista Phono 1 in the given situation?

[toobluvr]

A typical HOMC would not be highter than 1.5 mV, I think.  All I am asking is this:  shouldn't I be able to handle an order of difference in gain with a 20 deciBel swing on a line stage?   Would it be an overload to use a HOMC with the Vista Phono 1 in the given situation?

Not true at all!

Both of my HOMC that I mentioned earlier are well above that:  2.5mV and 2.8mV. 

It's not that rare, there are several others:

Benz Glider and Benz Ace........both 2.5mV
Dynavector 10x5..........2.5mV
Sumiko BPS and Blackbird......both 2.5mV

I'm sure there are others.

To answer your question.....

It depends how you define HOMC.  To me, it is about 1.5mV or greater.  For this much output a MM section is appropriate.  And yes, I am quite sure it would overload a MC section.

If you define HOMC as say .5 to 1.0 mV (which I do not, I call it Medium MC output) then I think it would be just fine into a MC section. 

My previous posts above give all the ranges and numbers that I think are roughly appropriate for either MM or MC section.  To summarize, this is how I see it:

cartridge ouput up to 1.0 or (maybe) 1.5 mV (?) :  use a MC section
output of 1.5 (?) or greater:  use a MM section 

Doesn't matter if the cartridge is called MM or MC.  Its output is the critical parameter for gain matching and determining  whether to use a MM or MC section.  (Correct loading is an important, but separate issue)

This is a general framework and there could be some system specific exceptions at the edges d/t a particular systems' overall gain profile...as I mentioned earlier. (Example:  system consisting of 103db efficient horns might be fine with a .2 output cart, while a pair of 85 db speakers would not......all other things the same.)

I say this from experience, but Boris is best person to ask.  There is a thread in the Vista Circle on his new phono section.  Just ask over there.  Boris is very responsive.

John

[Wayner]

A 1.5mv output on a MM phono stage is like floaten a boat with a hole in it. That kind of ouput voltage is in weird no-mans land. Too low for most if not all MM inputs (works but with higher then necessary noise floor) and way too high for a good MC input of the LOMC verity. I know of a couple of brands that claim 1.5mv as their output for their HOMC, but will tell  you privately that it's really more like 2.5, which works fine in a MM evvironment, all of course IMHO.

Wayner

[toobluvr]

A 1.5mv output on a MM phono stage is like floaten a boat with a hole in it. That kind of ouput voltage is in weird no-mans land. Too low for most if not all MM inputs (works but with higher then necessary noise floor) and way too high for a good MC input of the LOMC verity. I know of a couple of brands that claim 1.5mv as their output for their HOMC, but will tell  you privately that it's really more like 2.5, which works fine in a MM evvironment, all of course IMHO.

Wayner

Agreed 100% Wayner!

That's why I stated it as my transition point between MM and MC sections....but with a dose of uncertainty.   If you noticed I said 1.0....maybe 1.5....with "?" as to the transition.

1.5 output is a tough number cause some will need MM section with it, some MC.  It all depends on gain/sensitivity profile elsewhere in system (= line stage gain, amp input sensitivity, and speaker efficiency). 

But I suspect it will be problematic in most systems, regardless of whether MM or MC section is used.

[Wayner]

Yes, I know where you were coming from. To put it in a different perspective, 1 mv = .001 volts. Not very much is it.

It's kind of funny that this shit even works!

Wayner

[ecramer]

Must not be a lot of gain in your pre. My Rogue Magnum does not suffer from lack of gain. I made it to 11: o'clock with the MC version of Vista audio's Pre normal for me is 8 to 9 o'clock My cartridge is a dynavector 20xl  0.3mV Which i think is a very good cartridge. I asked Boris about gain and he said the gain could be bumped up easily so it would be a better match to the cdp.

MM Or MC? If your just testing the waters go with MM If its a long term commitment MC Ive heard the Denon d103 denon 103r  and the Dynavector all in the same system on two different tone arms and the 20xl came out on top in each case.

Is the 20xl 5x better then at440 for the price   

MC version has too low a gain for really LOMC.  It would depend on your preamp but I found myself cranking out past 80% to play my .3 mV output moving coil. H/MOMC  (for MC version) or MM  (for MM version) would be better unless Borris can increase the gain on this MC pre.

[toobluvr]

Must not be a lot of gain in your pre.

Not necessarily.
Maybe his amp is insensitive on the input.
Maybe his speakers are insensitive.
Maybe it's both.

He has 20 db of gain on his line section.  That is actually on the high side!

My cartridge is a dynavector 20xl  0.3mV Which i think is a very good cartridge.

I agree!  I have the high output version of this cartridge and think it is excellent.  I bought mine used w low hours for $200 from a local guy.  Oy...who pays retail anyways?     

[Audiovista]

40dB of gain is 100X
60dB is 1000x

So, if a cart is specified as 5mV, 40dB of gain will result in 500mV (100x5mV).
On the other side, if it's 0.5mV, 60dB of gain will give again 500mV (1000x0.5mV).

That may help selecting phono-preamp combination...

Perhaps more important than a nominal gain is dynamic headroom.... but I shouldn't hijack the thread.

[toobluvr]

40dB of gain is 100X
60dB is 1000x

So, if a cart is specified as 5mV, 40dB of gain will result in 500mV (100x5mV).
On the other side, if it's 0.5mV, 60dB of gain will give again 500mV (1000x0.5mV).

That may help selecting phono-preamp combination...

Perhaps more important than a nominal gain is dynamic headroom.... but I shouldn't hijack the thread.

So Boris.....

going back to the OP's gain quandry......

Using the formula you gave, does this mean that using a .3 mV cartridge with the MC section is the equivalent (in terms of gain) of using a 3.0 mV cartridge with the MM section?

Something does not seem right.  The OP states that he is short of gain with his .3 cart.  It is hard to imagine that a system employing a 3.0 cartridge (a very common MM output) into a MM section would be short on gain. 

 

I use lesser cartridge outputs than that with my MM section and my volume control rarely gets beyond 12 noon.

[JohnR]

As the (original) OP, I don't have a gain quandary

With reference to woodsyi's post, you would have to know whether "80%" is the highest he ever needs it, in which case the gain seems fine.

[richidoo]

AT is a good recommendation. 440Ml, like Wayner suggests, or 150MLX is their top MM model. Boris looked up the specs and told me that ACLE is a perfect match for it.  It is classic AT - neutral sound, fast enough but still got some body, and good bass. I got one used on AC for 250.  Make sure you do a good alignment or you won't get your money's worth. It is really important to get it right.

[Wayner]

My MusicDirect catalog has a nifty cartridge comparison chart. Almost all MM cartridgres fall within 4 to 5.5 with the exception of Rega with one of them putting out 7mv. That's  one hot cartridge.(5mv seems to be the average).

For HOMC, many fall within 2 to 3.6mv.

For LOMC, most fall within .4 to .8mv, with the brand Lyra  at .22mv. (I'd say .5mv is the average)

Most MC phono preamps have adjustable output (and some have loading) levels, to compensate for the variable outputs across the board.

It's just interesting to see all of the different outputs.

Wayner

[toobluvr]

Correct Wayner...I mispoke.

I was thinking of cartridges in general when I said above that many MM carts are in the 3.0 neighborhood.

Anyways, whether cart is MC or MM is really kindof irrelevant.  The issue at hand is the output and gain.  I have 3 carts (both MM and MC) all outputting in the 2.5 to 3.5 range, and gain in my system with MM section is more than enough.

I would say gain / sensitivity in the rest of my system is average:

amp input sensitivity:   1.2 volts
spkr efficiency:    91 db
line stage gain:    20 db

[toobluvr]

As the (original) OP, I don't have a gain quandary

With reference to woodsyi's post, you would have to know whether "80%" is the highest he ever needs it, in which case the gain seems fine.

OOPS....sorry John.
Meant to say Woodsyi.
 

More coffee...quickly!
 

But sometimes you don't wanna be at 80% of volume.  Noise floor issues.

[woodsyi]

40dB of gain is 100X
60dB is 1000x

So, if a cart is specified as 5mV, 40dB of gain will result in 500mV (100x5mV).
On the other side, if it's 0.5mV, 60dB of gain will give again 500mV (1000x0.5mV).

That may help selecting phono-preamp combination...

Perhaps more important than a nominal gain is dynamic headroom.... but I shouldn't hijack the thread.

So Boris.....

going back to the OP's gain quandry......

Using the formula you gave, does this mean that using a .3 mV cartridge with the MC section is the equivalent (in terms of gain) of using a 3.0 mV cartridge with the MM section?

Something does not seem right.  The OP states that he is short of gain with his .3 cart.  It is hard to imagine that a system employing a 3.0 cartridge (a very common MM output) into a MM section would be short on gain. 

 

I use lesser cartridge outputs than that with my MM section and my volume control rarely gets beyond 12 noon.

Mystery is solved.  The gain control on the output on my linestage was turned down. 

I opened it back up and I am running around 45 %.  Out of curiosity, I switched my Io phono stage to 62 dB gain setting and compared.  It's running around 40% which is about right, I think. 

So there is no gain issue with the MC section for me.   

[Audiovista]

40dB of gain is 100X
60dB is 1000x

So, if a cart is specified as 5mV, 40dB of gain will result in 500mV (100x5mV).
On the other side, if it's 0.5mV, 60dB of gain will give again 500mV (1000x0.5mV).

That may help selecting phono-preamp combination...

Perhaps more important than a nominal gain is dynamic headroom.... but I shouldn't hijack the thread.

So Boris.....

going back to the OP's gain quandry......

Using the formula you gave, does this mean that using a .3 mV cartridge with the MC section is the equivalent (in terms of gain) of using a 3.0 mV cartridge with the MM section?

Something does not seem right.  The OP states that he is short of gain with his .3 cart.  It is hard to imagine that a system employing a 3.0 cartridge (a very common MM output) into a MM section would be short on gain. 

 

I use lesser cartridge outputs than that with my MM section and my volume control rarely gets beyond 12 noon.

John,

You are correct, 0.3mV with 60dB of gain and 3mV with 40dB of gain will both result in 300mV at the phono preamp output.

This assumes that cartridge manufacturers all use the same set of rules to specify the output (which may not be the case....just take a look at what amplifier manufacturers do with output power specs).

Variations in actual output volume will depend on sensitivity and gain of the stages that follow - line preamp, power amp, speakers, listening habits....

I'll make another post tonight to elaborate more on the Dynamic Headroom that I mentioned before and why I think it's more important than the gain itself (if one needs it to play louder, he can always open volume control more, but with the headroom it is not that easy...)

[toobluvr]

    

Thanks Woodsyi.

Good to know that my brain is working and the logic I applied in post #30 is sound......I think....kindof.   

Given Boris' post I knew that something just didn't stack up.

[toobluvr]

........

Variations in actual output volume will depend on sensitivity and gain of the stages that follow - line preamp, power amp, speakers, listening habits....

........

Based on the posts here, I notice that these parameters are often overlooked.  Comparisons are often made across systems based on cart output and phono section gain only, and other system specific items effecting gain and output (ie: line stage gain, amp and speaker sensitivity) are ignored.

You state it in a much more clear and succinct manner.  I have been referring to it as "overall system gain / sensitivity"  or "system gain / sensitivity profile".