I want an audiophile t/t - Should I get a Technics SL1210 or a belt drive?

chrismercurio · « **Reply #40 on:** 12 Jun 2009, 03:20 pm »

I have a 1200 with a Clearaudio Maestro Wood. With the right cartridge, even with the stock arm, I don't think you give up a lot to the big dog tables. I have owned an SME 20, Clearaudio Champion, and Oracle table in the past so I have some perspective on what a top notch belt driven rig sounds like.

The best part, stable speed, trouble free operation, no belts, and it comes up to speed nearly instantly. I also don't have to worry about my wife using it. Changing belts, pulleys, etc..on belt drive tables sucks.

ricmon · « **Reply #41 on:** 12 Jun 2009, 05:01 pm »

You know John that 80% of all turntables are not ever setup right! Most are setting on a sub standard base right from the start, and most all are great feed back antennas due to the setup. I often wonder what those same folks would think if they heard the turntable they are bitching about setup right from the start?
gary
[/quote]

This is flat out 100% correct. All my tweekitis went out the window once I got my TT situated properly on a GOOOOOOD base. However, I think most TT users want their gear to fit nicely in the decorative scheme so the TT ends up on a good looking table/stand or shelf. To bad for them.

Ric

mountaineagle · « **Reply #42 on:** 12 Jun 2009, 05:16 pm »

Ric,

I am sure your right and as I am on a steep learning curve the less I can mess it up the better until I acquire some knowledge which is moving me back towards the VPI Classic as I also read Gary's note too.

I respect what Chris says about the 1200 and I suppose the proof of the pudding will be when I can listen to the VPI which will be when it is received at the Dealers. I will have some way to travel to listen to it but if it is worth it I will prob go for it.

Many years ago I just assumed my ears were getting old which I further assumed explained the two dimensional sound of cd to my ears. My gfriend's brother in law then played me an old Linn Sondek LP12 with no upgrades together with an old AR A60 Amp and big old Leak speakers and the voice of Joni Mitchell shone out of the speakers singing Blue.

I have never heard such soul and feeling in music playback since and when I hear it again I will buy that rig. Hopefully, it will be the VPI Classic which I am hoping might see me out.

Will wait for further updates from you Scott and also you TheChairGuy in order to persuade me not to go down the SL1210 route.

We shall see

Rock on...Greg

PS Got Buddy Guy on the Apollo at the mo just bought a recording of him live at his club at the Checkerboard Lounge Chicago in 1979 that was released in 2007.

lcrim · « **Reply #43 on:** 12 Jun 2009, 07:49 pm »

It wasn't very long ago that the Technics SL12XX series of turntables was accepted as one of the few true bargains in audio.
This forum was especially positive about Technics. A member that we haven't heard from in a while,"Psychic Animal" was an early admirer and supporter. I have an example that is over twenty years old with all the KAB mods, now mounting a very high end cartridge that I've compared favorably with the Audiophile approved names.
The OP began this thread by stating he received a recommendation from the phono section guy, Graham Slee to get a Technics as a first turntable. Mr. Slee, has made this recommendation to others, it is reported on other forums. Count me as one who is in agreement. Learn how to set up a TT and live w/ it on one that is easy to set up and live with. Like many others you may find you don't need to upgrade.
Snce I've been unemployed and become concerned about where I'm headed I have begun to remember that its the music and the peace it can bring thats important. John/TCG pointed out that the differences are percentage points.

AudioSoul · « **Reply #44 on:** 12 Jun 2009, 09:50 pm »

Quote from: chrismercurio on 12 Jun 2009, 03:20 pm

I have a 1200 with a Clearaudio Maestro Wood. With the right cartridge, even with the stock arm, I don't think you give up a lot to the big dog tables. I have owned an SME 20, Clearaudio Champion, and Oracle table in the past so I have some perspective on what a top notch belt driven rig sounds like.

The best part, stable speed, trouble free operation, no belts, and it comes up to speed nearly instantly. I also don't have to worry about my wife using it. Changing belts, pulleys, etc..on belt drive tables sucks.

After all this discussion, I pulled out my SL-1210 and put a Clearaudio Vituoso wood on it. I think the upper end Clearaudio carts are ideal for this TT. I always thought that the SL sounded a little dark, even with uprading the wireing with Cardas

low.pfile · « **Reply #45 on:** 12 Jun 2009, 11:55 pm »

Since mountaineagle's thread has now mentioned the SL12xx arm wiring, I thought he would benefit from related discussion on the New upgrade alternatives for the Technics SL12x0 thread at AG.com. The last few posts discuss the SL arm's wiring.

Personally, I was always curious about others' observations that the SL12x0 sounded "dark." I own an SL1210 MK5 with stock arm with KAB Cardas rewire and fluid damper trough. My first phono amp was a Gram Slee Amp2. I have on numerous occasions compared digital source to vinyl by switching input sources back and forth between my iTunes server/tube DAC/tube pre/Amp and the Technics (same album of course) and it is hard to distinguish (by me and others) which source is playing by tone alone. There is a clear difference in detail and nuance, but not in overall tone. If the Technics sounded dark I think it would be clearly heard, even slightly, during this comparison. BTW my KAB SL1210mk5 + Cart + mats was around $1300US. And I would consider that my entire system has medium/slightly above average resolution (full system details in link below)

I will not tell mountaineagle to run out and get a stock SL1200 and say "game over" While the stock SL is a strong reliable starter table, it is not the ultimate audio end game. Many alternatives here mentioned here will be a great addition to a system. I feel the KAB upgrades to the 1200 greatly improve it as would those by SoundHiFi--though still far from the End Game. The VPI Classic should be a strong consideration-I hope to hear John's (TCG) someday as we are local to one another.

My rationale for buying the KAB Technics was that it is no-nonsense, easy to understand mechanics, not finicky, and reasonably priced. I too wanted to set it up once and play music. I did and have been. No itch to upgrade the TT. I am trying different phono amps using the same AT 150MLX MM cart. the Pro-ject tube box se II is good but not overshadowing my Gram phono amp.

And lastly I asked about the speakers options earlier since they will be the ultimate transducer/filter for the source. I am not sure if your Dynaudios can/will convey all the differences in nuance raised in this discussion. FWIW, I am in the "speakers are top of the heap" camp in system hierarchy.

Keep trying out TTs and phono amps until you find your favorite.

Have fun,
Ed

Dave G · « **Reply #46 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 01:48 am »

Ed,

Very nice post. Thanks.

Dave

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #47 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 02:37 pm »

Another few spins on the VPI Classic and what I've found is this. Music is magical on this player. I usually read while I'm listening to music but I haven't been able to when playing records on the VPI. I get drawn into the music the way I did when I was young and it was all new to me. There is a 3-D dimensionality of the experience. The music comes from a space wider, deeper, and higher than any system I've ever owned.

The bass is still not quite there, but John says be patient, plus I will probably try a few different cables.

Dave, I know where you can see and listen to the VPI!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #48 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 02:52 pm »

Scott,

I have to agree...music is really quite good on this deck

Somehow or another, VPI has produced an unregulated, belt drive deck that sounds as confident/unwavering/un-fluttery as my ears have heard most direct drive decks to be.

It's achieved with a lower noise floor that allows for details I have not previously noticed with my DD decks to shine. Cymbols, triangles, high hats, right hand piano stokes - those upper midrange or treble range sounds - which were fluttering on my Thorens TD-316 and VPI HW-19 Mk. III (even with SDS) are not noticed now.

Perhaps it's played with a little less confidence than my JVC DD's...but, the difference is so slight to me that it is not taking away enjoyment from the music.

The bass does lock in as you continue to play it as does a slight phasey indistinctness. I've not been able to get DD decks to sound untethered in soundstaging....the HW-19 surely did that...and the Classic seems to be widening it's depth, width and height as the hours are piled on.

US$2500 in it's own right is a lotta' money....and I really am of the mind that between a good player like a Technics SL-1200 Mk. II and the best player in the world (whatever that is) is a difference of several percent only.

But, as committed audio/vinylphools here, we are smitten and keep seeking out that final 10% sonic improvement. The VPI Classic, even without periphery ring and SDS, would seem to span that 10% gap pretty well in my opinion.

It's a good deck - I've actually very pleased that I spent my finite funds on it. It's not 5x as good as the Technics SL-1200, but it's probably 5%......a fair value given the costs of other decks I'd think

Ed/low.phile....Bill 'Berndt' is having a listening party at his place in So. San Francisco on Tuesday, June 16 starting at 10AM. It's a small group that day as most are working: Bill, Tuan, Bill's wife Denise and the VPI Classic are there. I don't know how flexible your work is, but there's one way to hear it assembled with other committed vinylphools.

Ask Berndt for address, directions as it's his digs...but I'd think the invite from me is as good as one from him.

Regards, John

lazydays · « **Reply #49 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 04:35 pm »

Quote from: low.pfile on 12 Jun 2009, 11:55 pm

Since mountaineagle's thread has now mentioned the SL12xx arm wiring, I thought he would benefit from related discussion on the New upgrade alternatives for the Technics SL12x0 thread at AG.com. The last few posts discuss the SL arm's wiring.

Personally, I was always curious about others' observations that the SL12x0 sounded "dark." I own an SL1210 MK5 with stock arm with KAB Cardas rewire and fluid damper trough. My first phono amp was a Gram Slee Amp2. I have on numerous occasions compared digital source to vinyl by switching input sources back and forth between my iTunes server/tube DAC/tube pre/Amp and the Technics (same album of course) and it is hard to distinguish (by me and others) which source is playing by tone alone. There is a clear difference in detail and nuance, but not in overall tone. If the Technics sounded dark I think it would be clearly heard, even slightly, during this comparison. BTW my KAB SL1210mk5 + Cart + mats was around $1300US. And I would consider that my entire system has medium/slightly above average resolution (full system details in link below)

I will not tell mountaineagle to run out and get a stock SL1200 and say "game over" While the stock SL is a strong reliable starter table, it is not the ultimate audio end game. Many alternatives here mentioned here will be a great addition to a system. I feel the KAB upgrades to the 1200 greatly improve it as would those by SoundHiFi--though still far from the End Game. The VPI Classic should be a strong consideration-I hope to hear John's (TCG) someday as we are local to one another.

My rationale for buying the KAB Technics was that it is no-nonsense, easy to understand mechanics, not finicky, and reasonably priced. I too wanted to set it up once and play music. I did and have been. No itch to upgrade the TT. I am trying different phono amps using the same AT 150MLX MM cart. the Pro-ject tube box se II is good but not overshadowing my Gram phono amp.

And lastly I asked about the speakers options earlier since they will be the ultimate transducer/filter for the source. I am not sure if your Dynaudios can/will convey all the differences in nuance raised in this discussion. FWIW, I am in the "speakers are top of the heap" camp in system hierarchy.

Keep trying out TTs and phono amps until you find your favorite.

Have fun,
Ed

I've never felt the 1200 to be a dark sounding table. But as much as I liked it, I knew it was history as soon as I heard a Thorens with a good arm and cartridge. The one thing I noticed more than anything else was that the upper mids and highs were just much more open and transparent (even with the same cartridge). Later I discovered that the bass seemed to be somewhat more liquid and warmer (this can also be attributed to the softer suspension systems used in a lot of belt drive tables; thus reducing low level feed back.

Now if you gotta have a direct drive table; the first thing you gotta do is figure out a way to isolate the base from the shelf it sets on. Some guys like to use a sand box, and some guys go on from there (I happen to like the Ginko Cloud). I've still got a large Big Rock setting in my storage room, but don't see me using it again as it dosn't like 40lb. tables. The suspension system on most direct drive tables is somewhat stiff, and will act as an antenna picking up low level feedback. Then of course the plinth dosn't help the situation very much either. I've never been a fan of "S shaped" tonearms as most here already know, and have always thought the Technics arms to be a little heavy. So with that in mind I think one needs to be thinking about a different tonearm. Maybe a Rega? The platter on the direct drives is also something I never liked all that well, and now see that there are aftermarket platters out there for them. I think you can make a direct drive sound well, but not on the cheap of course. But on the otherhand I've always wanted to experiment with the marble plinthed Kenwoods just to see what can be done with them. Maybe in my next lifetime!
gary

mountaineagle · « **Reply #50 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 08:34 pm »

John,

Have fun at the party!

The last time I was in San Fran I was watching Magazine at the OLd Waldorf with Brian Wilson in he audience.....

By the way, what happened to Denis and Gnasher in their spaceship on my profile? The moderator seems to have zapped them?

Greg

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #51 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 10:00 pm »

Lazydays,

I used to own a Kenwood KD-500. It was two-dimensional sounding. Caveat emptor.

AudioSoul · « **Reply #52 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 10:20 pm »

Quote from: low.pfile on 12 Jun 2009, 11:55 pm

Since mountaineagle's thread has now mentioned the SL12xx arm wiring, I thought he would benefit from related discussion on the New upgrade alternatives for the Technics SL12x0 thread at AG.com. The last few posts discuss the SL arm's wiring.

Personally, I was always curious about others' observations that the SL12x0 sounded "dark." I own an SL1210 MK5 with stock arm with KAB Cardas rewire and fluid damper trough. My first phono amp was a Gram Slee Amp2. I have on numerous occasions compared digital source to vinyl by switching input sources back and forth between my iTunes server/tube DAC/tube pre/Amp and the Technics (same album of course) and it is hard to distinguish (by me and others) which source is playing by tone alone. There is a clear difference in detail and nuance, but not in overall tone. If the Technics sounded dark I think it would be clearly heard, even slightly, during this comparison. BTW my KAB SL1210mk5 + Cart + mats was around $1300US. And I would consider that my entire system has medium/slightly above average resolution (full system details in link below)

I will not tell mountaineagle to run out and get a stock SL1200 and say "game over" While the stock SL is a strong reliable starter table, it is not the ultimate audio end game. Many alternatives here mentioned here will be a great addition to a system. I feel the KAB upgrades to the 1200 greatly improve it as would those by SoundHiFi--though still far from the End Game. The VPI Classic should be a strong consideration-I hope to hear John's (TCG) someday as we are local to one another.

My rationale for buying the KAB Technics was that it is no-nonsense, easy to understand mechanics, not finicky, and reasonably priced. I too wanted to set it up once and play music. I did and have been. No itch to upgrade the TT. I am trying different phono amps using the same AT 150MLX MM cart. the Pro-ject tube box se II is good but not overshadowing my Gram phono amp.

And lastly I asked about the speakers options earlier since they will be the ultimate transducer/filter for the source. I am not sure if your Dynaudios can/will convey all the differences in nuance raised in this discussion. FWIW, I am in the "speakers are top of the heap" camp in system hierarchy.

Keep trying out TTs and phono amps until you find your favorite.

Have fun,
Ed

You are comparing to digital try a good belt drive TT. Then tell me the SL12** isnt dark

lazydays · « **Reply #53 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 05:46 pm »

Quote from: AudioSoul on 13 Jun 2009, 10:20 pm

Quote from: low.pfile on 12 Jun 2009, 11:55 pm
Since mountaineagle's thread has now mentioned the SL12xx arm wiring, I thought he would benefit from related discussion on the New upgrade alternatives for the Technics SL12x0 thread at AG.com. The last few posts discuss the SL arm's wiring.

Personally, I was always curious about others' observations that the SL12x0 sounded "dark." I own an SL1210 MK5 with stock arm with KAB Cardas rewire and fluid damper trough. My first phono amp was a Gram Slee Amp2. I have on numerous occasions compared digital source to vinyl by switching input sources back and forth between my iTunes server/tube DAC/tube pre/Amp and the Technics (same album of course) and it is hard to distinguish (by me and others) which source is playing by tone alone. There is a clear difference in detail and nuance, but not in overall tone. If the Technics sounded dark I think it would be clearly heard, even slightly, during this comparison. BTW my KAB SL1210mk5 + Cart + mats was around $1300US. And I would consider that my entire system has medium/slightly above average resolution (full system details in link below)

I will not tell mountaineagle to run out and get a stock SL1200 and say "game over" While the stock SL is a strong reliable starter table, it is not the ultimate audio end game. Many alternatives here mentioned here will be a great addition to a system. I feel the KAB upgrades to the 1200 greatly improve it as would those by SoundHiFi--though still far from the End Game. The VPI Classic should be a strong consideration-I hope to hear John's (TCG) someday as we are local to one another.

My rationale for buying the KAB Technics was that it is no-nonsense, easy to understand mechanics, not finicky, and reasonably priced. I too wanted to set it up once and play music. I did and have been. No itch to upgrade the TT. I am trying different phono amps using the same AT 150MLX MM cart. the Pro-ject tube box se II is good but not overshadowing my Gram phono amp.

And lastly I asked about the speakers options earlier since they will be the ultimate transducer/filter for the source. I am not sure if your Dynaudios can/will convey all the differences in nuance raised in this discussion. FWIW, I am in the "speakers are top of the heap" camp in system hierarchy.

Keep trying out TTs and phono amps until you find your favorite.

Have fun,
Ed
You are comparing to digital try a good belt drive TT. Then tell me the SL12** isnt dark
[/quot

In my opinion the direct drives are just not as musical and open as a good belt drive
gary

mountaineagle · « **Reply #54 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 07:01 pm »

Although I have a cheap system it's not too bad and the Apollo & Brio 3 seem to be well thought of and it may be that the 52s let it down but, unfortunately, none of my mates are audiophiles so I simply had to make a dealer decision and the speakers whilst a little "heavy" are a big box for the buck and sound reasonably precise since I put them on partington dreadnoughts & granite slabs through chord odyssey 2 cable compared with anything else I heard at the same price. However, I am not looking for precision I am looking for soul and, out of curiosity will take my little Brio off to the dealers this forthcoming week to listen to the SL1210 through some Epos M12i's.

The bottom line remains the VPI Classic and I am still waiting to hear it as I have not, presently, been invited to use Denis the Menace's space-ship to pop over to listen to John's

( have now replaced the profile void created by Denis's removal by that of the greatest footballer who has ever lived ) and San Fran is a long way from Manchester, England!

This is a very big decision for me as I have, somewhat, always regretted buying the 52s when the problem may not be them but a $2500 VPI is a mistake I cannot afford to make...

And talking of "dark" ....I have read that VPI... IS... when compared to Linn & Rega?

I am put off Linn by the hype and outrageous marketing policy of selling you 1/2 a deck and then trying to sell you the rest as an "upgrade" ( would you accept the 4th wheel on your new car as an "upgrade"?

) and Rega seems to be a league below the VPI Classic...

...anyway the quest goes on...roll on the VPI Classic as it heads my way over the Atlantic to the dealers.

Greg

doug s. · « **Reply #55 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 07:29 pm »

greg, i really think you need to rethink your priorities. you have ~$400 retail speakers, and are wanting to spend >$2500 on a turntable? i suggest reversing the prices there - get some ~$2500 (preferably used) speakers, and get a $400 turntable. i posted many ebay.co.uk auction links for you; i am not sure if you saw them; seems my posts are restricted until a moderator approves them?

in any ewent, something like a systemdek ll w/upgraded arm & motor, w/much better speakers, will give you a lot better overall performance than a $2500 turntable and your present speakers. as john/tcg said, a $500 deck will only be giving up a few percent in performance compared to the vpi classic. better $2500 speakers will offer a lot more improvement over your present speakers, than a few percent, imo...

linn turntables, btw, are wery nice, but i suggest you look for one used, awreddy upgraded. there's tons of 'em in the uk...

doug s.

analognut · « **Reply #56 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 01:48 am »

A friend of mine and very respected vinylphool over at Vinyl Asylum owns a Sota Millenia with SME V arm and Denon DL-103R cart.

With that being said, he recently informed me he's just purchased one of KAB USA's modded SL1200's and is using the stock Technics arm with his 103R. His opinion is the 1200 is very nearly equal to his Millenia in terms of "sounds good"! If the comparison between the roughly $1k Technics and the $8k Sota leaves you scratching your head, then you have a heck of a good reason for investing in the Technics. Simply calling it a very nice starter table appears to be a gross understatement! One of his loves about it is the rock-steady dead-on speed.

Dave G · « **Reply #57 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 02:13 am »

Quote from: mountaineagle

greatest footballer who has ever lived

Excuse my ignorance (I'm American), but is that Bobby Charlton?

Carry on.

Dave

mountaineagle · « **Reply #58 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 07:56 am »

Analognut,

What puts me off the SL1210, as discussed, and as John has said, is that by the time you have modded it the price is not far short of the VPI Classic which is my aim at the moment. I am in the UK and the "modder" over here is Sound Hifi who I am sure do a great job but if the VPI is rock solid both in terms of sound and build it will suit me as I am not interested in tweaking.

I appreciate that KAB mod costs less but there is no "modder" over here in the UK and I dont want to buy direct from the States if I can avoid it. No aversion to the US ...I just havent bought abroad before although I may have to, in future, if I want the vinyl I want.

I accept the advice of those on here that it may appear a bit daft to jump from nowt to a VPI Classic but I am not interested in upgrading and believe in the old adage ...buy once and buy well...if the Classic delivers when it eventually reaches my dealer I will prob go for it.

What would be interesting, and I accept tempting, is how good a SL1210, without any modification and the stock arm, sounds with a Denon DL-103R which has just beat the AT OC9 into 2nd place ( subjective, I know ) in this months Hifi News.

What really appeal to me about the SL1210 is the rock solid ( said it again! ) nature of the rig rather than balancing little counter-weights etc..and the fact that I can probably come back from the pub...fall over it and probably not do it too much damage...not being flippant..as such happened enough in my old vinyl days.
Dave,

No problem mate I probably wouldnt recognise Joe Dimaggio...

Its the great Denis Law who played in the same team as Bobby Charlton in the 60s...The greatest player I have ever seen ...and having a seat at Man U I have seen Maradona at our place and more recently Kaka and the sold Ronaldo.

Greg

Browntrout · « **Reply #59 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 08:51 am »

My advice would be to look at your source in relation to the rest of your setup. I do think however that a good turntable is the foundation of the system as a whole and I would rather know I am listening to a good cart to the best of it's abilities than a great cart that is being limited by a very questionable tonearm and turntable.
I would expect the unipivot that comes with the VPI to surpass the Rega most likely fitted to a modded Technics by a noticable degree, and the better the cart fitted the more noticable that would become.
Last but not least which would you rather look at for the next fifteen years?

P.S As for what magazines say about cartridges it's pretty much the same as someone else telling you what to wear. They might well get the fit correct but your taste is yours.