I want an audiophile t/t - Should I get a Technics SL1210 or a belt drive?

mountaineagle · « **Reply #20 on:** 8 Jun 2009, 06:55 pm »

BobRex, Mike at VPI recommended the Cayin A-50T.

What do you think? Cant buy it in the UK but can get it direct from the German dealers of Cayin.

Scotthobby, Go for it. Bring the Family is a great album. Ry is over here shortly with Nick Lowe. Please keep me informed. You and John are the only guys running the Classic out at the moment. No-one in the UK to my knowledge.

Greg

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #21 on:** 8 Jun 2009, 07:29 pm »

I'm rarely short of opinions, Greg - I merely try to convey them while keeping others needs in mind. It's a bit of a tightrope...but I try

I think the VPI Classic purchase, as Scotthobby is finding I think, was a very fine purchase for me. The bass is now coming thru at 40 hours (there is hope, Scott

)

The unipivot is fiddly and I bemoan the loss of auto-return and replay. But, sonically, this is a gem of a turntable and I cannot recommend another than I am aware of today for the same money. I definitely now prefer it to my beloved JVC QL-Y66F...tho if I were in a different pay bracket, I'd be perfectly happy with that as my everyday forever, frankly

The flak I'm getting from some bub named 'JD' over at VinylEngine is simply stupid. He's got a hard-on for VPI and it's owner Harry Weisfeld...so he's unprepared to accept anything but a kick-in-the-groin to them as reviews go. He didn't like his VPI Aries...boohoo...we all have made some bad purchases in our lives before.

I figure it takes two to tango and the only thing in common with everything that has gone awry in my life is ME. So, I assume responsibility in some way for everything that happens in my life. Old J.D. prefers to shield himself from the what is most obvious - that HE is to blame for his failures, blunders, etc.

John

Quote from: mountaineagle on 8 Jun 2009, 06:32 pm

You seem to be getting some serious, and ridiculous, stick on vinyl engine John

Whether the Classic is, subjectively or objectively, 5% or 500% better than the Technics or JVC is, totally, irrelevant ...the only issue is whether, John, you feel it is a worthwhile purchase at the price or you wish you had bought something else or kept your money in your pocket?

If your not yet in a position to give an opinion, fair play,but if you think it is the best turntable up to $2500 then that is, surely, a result?

Greg

mountaineagle · « **Reply #22 on:** 8 Jun 2009, 07:50 pm »

John,

The loss of auto return and replay is a pain. With the myriad of upgrades and shiny nobs there are in hifi I am a bit puzzled as to why Harry cannot provide a cheap add-on to provide the same.

Some of the flak you were taking on vinyl engine was rude although as you say, like betting on the wrong horse, buying a deck you didn't like is always somebody else's fault

Greg

AudioSoul · « **Reply #23 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 12:05 am »

Do any of you guys think that you can design and build a better TT than Harry Weisfield. For all those (me included)
that have fiddled with TT's, modifying them, changing this and changing that, we could have purchased a much higher end TT with the money we spent. I know for tweekers it the fun involved, but, the OP doesn't strike me as guy that wants to go through all that. He is getting back into vinyl and wants to buy a TT he can have confidence that will give him solid performance. I am not even saying the TT has to be a VPI Classic just something better than a SL-1200 that he can live with (no doubts) no muss, no fuss

mountaineagle · « **Reply #24 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 11:45 am »

Audiosoul,

Exactly

lazydays · « **Reply #25 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 03:36 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 8 Jun 2009, 02:59 am

Quote from: DavidS on 8 Jun 2009, 12:35 am
A link I have been following about the modded 1200 started by Jeff who was a skeptic from Tone Audio. Sounds like it is in the same ballpark as the Classic - I am going to read another couple of months before taking a plunge.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=182894

It may well be in the same sonic league as the VPI Classic...but with all the added extras, it's now no longer giveaway priced.

I have a Technics SL-1200 Mk. II, with Origin Live armboard and have tried it with Origin Live Illustrious Mk. II (I would think at least the equal of the SME 309).

To it has been added KABUSA's outboard motor controller and strobe disabler...and the stock (gross!) feet have been bypassed to brass toes pointed down into a 3.5" maple block.

The rubber mat (double gross!) was tossed and a new Herbie's mat used.

Now, I have not directly compared it versus the VPI Classic....but the Technics sounds less polished than my JVC QL-Y66F ($450 on ebay....$30 in modelling clay added). As of Thursday of last week, with about 30 hours playtime on the VPI Classic....it slightly bests the JVC

So, despite liking the Technics SL-1200 for value in it's stock form....I have not heard the degree of benefit that Jeff/TONEPUB (who I consider a friend of mine) describes with all the add-ons. It merely sounds like a better SL-1200 and not worth the 5x more investment.

The stock SL-1200 is very fine value....but improves not enough with large wads of additional cash. The stock table, brass feet ($30/4), a new Herbies mat ($59), KAB damping trough ($149) and judicious use of constrained layer damping ($5.00 for a strip at Music Direct...trim your own little dots from that) is all I'd go. For maybe US$750...it'll sound fine. But at $2500+ with all the doo-dads...I'd take the VPI Classic hands down

The VPI Classic sounds terrific...but, not in any way 5x better than a (stock) Technics SL-1200 Mk. II.

Greg/mountaineagle - I've been traveling, had a death in the 'family' (our kitten ) this week and have been pummeled with great opportunities at my business...so I've been a bit slower to keep up with matters here at AC. I've been keeping the same topic at VinylEngine.com and it's been more active there.

John

I've owned three SL 1200's in the past and have one more in the family right now. They're OK, but won't run with the big dogs. By the time you buy an SL 1200II and do all the mods to it you spend a couple hundred dollars more and just never look back.
I don't buy a turntable to rebuild right out of the box, and don't think most folks do either. I buy one to listen to music with, and (with the exception of a cartridge) other than the usual level check and tone arm adjustments. Currently I own three tables, and all are belt drives. One of those belt drives I had to do some work to just to get it to sound right (you don't wanta know what I think about Chinese turntables!). One is a Music Hall, and I'm about as impressed with it as waking up in bed with my mother inlaw! The other is a piece of German engineering that is literally plug & play! I mean to say that once you have the arm aligned and the table leveled you just never touch it again. I think that's what 98% of the users out there are seeking. The only thing I've ever done to that table is to experiment a bit with different threads (also did this with the China Syndome).
But as I write this I've seriously been giving thought to selling two of them (I'm giving the #5 Music Hall away), and buying a Basis Debut or a VPI HRX (used of course). The only real problem I have with these two tables is that they are one arm orientated, and I have a need for two arms minimum (lots of mono jazz and enough Toscanini to last two lifetimes). Look for a major house cleaning late in the summer or early fall
gary

lazydays · « **Reply #26 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 03:41 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 8 Jun 2009, 07:29 pm

I'm rarely short of opinions, Greg - I merely try to convey them while keeping others needs in mind. It's a bit of a tightrope...but I try

I think the VPI Classic purchase, as Scotthobby is finding I think, was a very fine purchase for me. The bass is now coming thru at 40 hours (there is hope, Scott )

The unipivot is fiddly and I bemoan the loss of auto-return and replay. But, sonically, this is a gem of a turntable and I cannot recommend another than I am aware of today for the same money. I definitely now prefer it to my beloved JVC QL-Y66F...tho if I were in a different pay bracket, I'd be perfectly happy with that as my everyday forever, frankly

The flak I'm getting from some bub named 'JD' over at VinylEngine is simply stupid. He's got a hard-on for VPI and it's owner Harry Weisfeld...so he's unprepared to accept anything but a kick-in-the-groin to them as reviews go. He didn't like his VPI Aries...boohoo...we all have made some bad purchases in our lives before.

I figure it takes two to tango and the only thing in common with everything that has gone awry in my life is ME. So, I assume responsibility in some way for everything that happens in my life. Old J.D. prefers to shield himself from the what is most obvious - that HE is to blame for his failures, blunders, etc.

John

Quote from: mountaineagle on 8 Jun 2009, 06:32 pm
You seem to be getting some serious, and ridiculous, stick on vinyl engine John

Whether the Classic is, subjectively or objectively, 5% or 500% better than the Technics or JVC is, totally, irrelevant ...the only issue is whether, John, you feel it is a worthwhile purchase at the price or you wish you had bought something else or kept your money in your pocket?

If your not yet in a position to give an opinion, fair play,but if you think it is the best turntable up to $2500 then that is, surely, a result?

Greg

You know John that 80% of all turntables are not ever setup right! Most are setting on a sub standard base right from the start, and most all are great feed back antennas due to the setup. I often wonder what those same folks would think if they heard the turntable they are bitching about setup right from the start?
gary

lazydays · « **Reply #27 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 03:44 pm »

Quote from: AudioSoul on 9 Jun 2009, 12:05 am

Do any of you guys think that you can design and build a better TT than Harry Weisfield. For all those (me included)
that have fiddled with TT's, modifying them, changing this and changing that, we could have purchased a much higher end TT with the money we spent. I know for tweekers it the fun involved, but, the OP doesn't strike me as guy that wants to go through all that. He is getting back into vinyl and wants to buy a TT he can have confidence that will give him solid performance. I am not even saying the TT has to be a VPI Classic just something better than a SL-1200 that he can live with (no doubts) no muss, no fuss

personally I think my German turntable is right there with the very best VPI sells, and in many ways far superior. But that's not a knock against VPI (I do think the HRX is better than anything I have in many ways except for the electronics and their belt quality)
gary

doug s. · « **Reply #28 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 04:05 pm »

the vpi classic might be a great deal, for a new deck. but, i am a cheapskate. i would certainly buy something used for my $2500. and, if i wanted d/d, i could get something like a goldmund or a technics sp10 w/that budget.

if i wanted performance close to the vpi classic, (don't know for sure, i have never tried the vpi), i would get an empire put a good arm on it, mebbe tweak the chassis & platter w/some damping compound, and pocket the (not insubstantial) cash difference. i wouldn't sweat any possible sonic differences. i heard a 208 empire set up w/an rs-labs arm, and i know how excellent that was. (even the wintage wood grado arm that came w/that empire deck was superb.) ~$800 turntable/arm combo, (used), w/$200 lomc cartridge and $600 (used) fono stage, and it would see off any digital rig at any price. imo, of course. better than this is gilding the lily, imo.

per the prior vpi classic thread, my post there, re: shopping used:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65317.msg634647#msg634647

ymmv,

doug s.

mountaineagle · « **Reply #29 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 04:18 pm »

Gary,

Is your german turntable a Clearaudio and if so which one and with which arm and cartridge?

Doug, If I had your knowledge I would go down your road but I dont and you can make expensive mistakes learning.

Going to a dealer, tomorrow, with a mate to listen to a basic SL1210.

At the moment the options consist of the VPI Classic ( TheChairGuy & Scotthobby to continue to provide updates on their new decks ) with factory fitted Dynavector DV20-X MC and maybe the Dynavector P-75 MK II PSU & Cayin A-50T both of which have been recommended by Mike at VPI. Got a pair of Dynaudio Audience 52s but still waiting for you guys to either damn the 52s or suggest something else.

Greg

doug s. · « **Reply #30 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 05:18 pm »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 9 Jun 2009, 04:18 pm

...Doug, If I had your knowledge I would go down your road but I dont and you can make expensive mistakes learning......

greg, you do not need any knowledge at all to pick up a used empire on ebay for $200-$400, stick a cartridge in it and be done w/it. if you don't like it, simply toss it in the garbage, and you will still be out less cash then if you tried to re-sell a now-used vpi classic...

i will stop bothering you now, i promise!

doug s.

low.pfile · « **Reply #31 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 05:37 pm »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 9 Jun 2009, 04:18 pm

....Got a pair of Dynaudio Audience 52s but still waiting for you guys to either damn the 52s or suggest something else.
Greg

Greg, been following your thread. Since you are auditioning the TTs soon will you be able to bring your own Dyn's along?

I don't know your speakers but you could be mislead listening to the TT via something very different than your own speakers. Also you stated you want to make this your last TT purchase, what about speakers, are you willing to try something else?

have fun
ed

BobRex · « **Reply #32 on:** 9 Jun 2009, 06:10 pm »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 8 Jun 2009, 06:55 pm

BobRex, Mike at VPI recommended the Cayin A-50T.

What do you think? Cant buy it in the UK but can get it direct from the German dealers of Cayin.
Greg

Greg, What does the A-50T cost in Europe? There are a few similar amps that I'd also suggest looking at - the Almarro A318B is 18 watts (about the same as the Cayin in triode) and has the advantage of being true triode, not a pentode playing as a triode. I'd also look at the Pure Sound A30, it's very similar to the Cayin. Both of these are readily available in England. I'd listen to the amps connected to the Dynaudios (for the moment forget about the turntable, the amp/speaker interface is the most important part of a system. If you don't get this right, nothing else will matter. And from what I remember the Dynaudios are not the most sensitive speakers out there. Make sure you are happy with this combination before you commit to any amp or speaker.)

I'm not trying to talk you out of the Cayin, but you should make sure you like the sound of tubes driving the speakers before you commit to importing something.

lazydays · « **Reply #33 on:** 10 Jun 2009, 04:07 pm »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 9 Jun 2009, 04:18 pm

Gary,

Is your german turntable a Clearaudio and if so which one and with which arm and cartridge?

Doug, If I had your knowledge I would go down your road but I dont and you can make expensive mistakes learning.

Going to a dealer, tomorrow, with a mate to listen to a basic SL1210.

At the moment the options consist of the VPI Classic ( TheChairGuy & Scotthobby to continue to provide updates on their new decks ) with factory fitted Dynavector DV20-X MC and maybe the Dynavector P-75 MK II PSU & Cayin A-50T both of which have been recommended by Mike at VPI. Got a pair of Dynaudio Audience 52s but still waiting for you guys to either damn the 52s or suggest something else.

Greg

The German table is an Acoustic Signature Final Tool. It will take three tone arms, and is capable of uising two or three motors to drive it at the same time. Uses what many fell is the finest electronic drive ever built for a turntable. It in turn drives a stepping motor for the most accurate motor speeds you can obtain, plus the motor has an encoder to count pulses at the same time it also setsup the table speeds via the "steps" built into the motor itself. This is a very similar drive system to what is used in CNC machinery, and how they built and sold it for that kind of a price still amazes me. The China Syndrome also uses a stepping motor and a built in drive that's constant speed. No where near the quality. The Final Tool also uses a thread drive (note: I have since converted the China Syndrome over to a thread drive system for a good improvement). O rings vary in quality, and go bad quickly. I think flat belts are better than O rings (if they are ground). Both of these tables set on three points, and not four (three points always constitute a perfect plain while four points never will). The tone arm mount on both tables are pretty much infinitely adjustable, but have found the German table to have a better dampened arm mount (but not without a complaint). The Final Tool weighs in at about 40lb. while the Shanghi Special tips the scale at 24lb. The plater for the Final Tool weighs almost as much as the complete China Syndrome! Very well dampened, and seems to not be affected by low grade feed back like the other(s). Still I've made a couple small improvements here and there with the idea of cutting the feedback path from entering into the base of the table(s).
The platter on the Final Tool is solid Aluminum, where as the other is somekind of Formica. Both tables now sound well, but as I said before it took a little bit of work to get the Shanghi Special up to speed. The real hassel with the latter was the main bearing setup as well as feed back. I made a new spindle out of A2 that was ground to a micro of less than six, and then lapped, and after that polished to a mirror finish. The thrust bearing is now ceramic, and rides on a Rulon plug with a small dab of GN paste for lube. The spindle itself uses Mobile DTE 28 oil. Clearence for the spindle is under .001". With all that in mind the German table uses a carbide thrust bearing that has no lube. The bushing is oillite (I don't care what they say it's still an oillite bearing), and uses no lube. Thus no oil leaks!
Could these two tables be improved upon? Yes! I think that by using a different metal for the arm mounts (one is steel and the other is aluminum) I think you can make a hit on the feed back (low level feed back comming in thru the base and back up the arm from the arm mount). Also the actual design of the arm mount makes VTA a pain to setup. The distance under the arm mount needs to be opened up a little, and the mount be lowered (to the platter face) by about .25". I'd also like to see at least six (and real eight) identified dots on the outside of the platter to aid in the use of an electronic strobe should you desire to do a check (I did)
gary

mountaineagle · « **Reply #34 on:** 11 Jun 2009, 09:49 pm »

Doug,

I accept that an Empire is a star t/t but none of my mates or myself have ever heard of it over here in the UK and I just want an unproblematical deck that delivers.

I am, to be honest, getting increasingly confused.

Here in the UK Hifi World is about to further review a modded SL1210 which if it is favourable will really put the cat amongst the pigeons as whilst Technics moves thousands of units, no matter what, as we all know the relatively smaller companies like Linn, Rega & VPI, clearly, depend on the reviewers saying that belt drive is superior when I am getting the impression that such assertion may just be a fallacy perpetrated by such companies in collusion with the Hifi Press who would have nothing further to write about if SL1210 denotes game over?!

I am, presently, torn as Joe Public without any knowledge and becoming increasingly suspicious of the vested interests of not only those who sell belt drives but those who have been "conned" into buying them and therefore feel compelled to continue to say that the Emperor wears no clothes if only to justify their own frustrated purchase of belt drive and the bottomless hole they then dig into in spending even more money to create in what they bought what they thought they were buying in the first place and which appears to be a lesser being than a SL1210 which can be purchased at a fraction of the price.

Shoot me down if I have missed something and whilst I accept as TheChairGuy that 5% may be all you get from the Classic over the SL1210 ,again, we all know that the deck either delivers ..or does not...and I am waitjng for the final verdict from John and Scott...you've gone quiet Scott?

But where does that leave me?

If I get a Sound Hifi modded SL1210 with a Jelco SA250 arm and a AT OC9 ( or maybe the recently raved review of the Denon 103R? ) and do nothing else Sound Hifi will charge me ( correct me Dave Cawley if I am wrong ...I can buy the Timestep and other bits and bobs later can't I? ) ...?1487 ....whilst the VPI Classic with DV-20 X will cost me ?2470.

I dont mind paying the extra grand but when Graham Slee, himself(!), tells me to simply buy the basic SL1210 at ?450 and stick a AT 95 on for a few quid more and then buy a phono stage as that is what makes the difference.... what am I supposed to do???

Advice please as I would love to be convinced that the SL1210 will be the equal of the VPI Classic, esp, as the SL1210 fits in with my "non-tweaking" philosophy!....and yet if the VPI Classic will deliver that soul that I may be told that the SL1210 could never provide ...then a grand is nothing in exchange for such enjoyment.

Ed, Happy to listen to suggestions for other speakers. A lot of people have told me that the 52s were a wrong decision and they do sound plummy on the end of the Apollo+brio although I have read that the OC9 can be forward so maybe they would suit that cartridge and a naim pre-power?

BobRex, I have been quoted ?1120 for the A-50T in Europe which is a lot less than I was quoted to buy it in the US.

Gary, I feel embarrassed reading your kind response as I simply try to get up to speed to acquire at least a fraction of the knowledge that you guys display in every thread. Which means that I dont understand what your on about but please note that is due to my shortcomings and nothing else!

Listened to a basic SL1210 with a AT 91 cartridge earlier this week and played my mates 40 yr old scratched copy of Joni's...Blue...very musical ...or may be I wanted it to be?

Will be popping back with my Brio as it was heard through the Roksan Kandy 2 system which did sound a little syrupy.

Well, if your still with me...the quest goes on....

Greg

mountaineagle · « **Reply #35 on:** 11 Jun 2009, 09:53 pm »

THE ? SHOULD READ ?!

mountaineagle · « **Reply #36 on:** 11 Jun 2009, 09:54 pm »

Bizarre..I type pounds sterling and you guys read a question mark...

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #37 on:** 11 Jun 2009, 10:06 pm »

Greg,

I haven't gone silent. I've just been putting in long hours on the job and haven't had time to do much listening. Maybe a little tonight. I seriously doubt that any direct drive table can provide the depth, openness, soundstage, and natural reverberation as a good belt drive. I have owned both and listened to many others and consistently prefer a good belt. Where a direct sometimes has the edge is speed accuracy. Having said all that, there's a lot more to a turntable than its drive system. There's freedom from vibration (motor or external), lack of feedback, the tonearm and cartridge, the synergy of them all, the phono pre, the cables, and probably a dozen other things. Fwiw, the AT95 is a good, maybe great $50 cartridge. But it is a $50 cartridge and does not compete with the type of cartridge you should be considering. Keep thinking... you'll figure out what you need.

doug s. · « **Reply #38 on:** 12 Jun 2009, 12:24 am »

hi greg,

jeez, i musta been asleep at the wheel - i didn't realize you were in the uk.

GBB · « **Reply #39 on:** 12 Jun 2009, 03:05 pm »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 11 Jun 2009, 09:49 pm

Advice please as I would love to be convinced that the SL1210 will be the equal of the VPI Classic, esp, as the SL1210 fits in with my "non-tweaking" philosophy!....and yet if the VPI Classic will deliver that soul that I may be told that the SL1210 could never provide ...then a grand is nothing in exchange for such enjoyment.

Well, if your still with me...the quest goes on....

Greg

Greg,
As you've discovered, the Technics SL-1200 is a controversial turntable that seems to polarize audiophiles - some people love it and some people don't. There's been a lot of discussion on the web that highlights this trend. Here are a few examples:

The TNT folks reviewed the SL-1200 and found it to be a good turntable and a great value.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/technics_sl1200_e.html

This fellow (Marc Phillips, the Vinyl Anachronist) has been writing about the Technics for a few years and has not been a fan. He says that he's owned one for a few years and found that he rarely listened to it, preferring his belt drive Regas. Recently, he took another look and now says that with the right cartridge, it becomes listenable. Take a look here:
http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2008/vinyl_light.shtml

Not having listened to the SL-1200 for many years, so it may be presumptuous to offer my own opinion, but here goes anyway. If I were in your shoes and if I had the money, I'd definitely go for the VPI Classic. You've got The Chairguy's experience that it sounds better than his JVC which he likes better than the Technics. The vast published literature on the web shows that with enough tweaking (good cartridge plus various mods) you can get good sound from the Technics. But you don't sound like you want to go down that road. I suspect the VPI will be closer to a plug and play turntable that you can use for years and spend your valuable time listening as opposed to playing with the equipment.

---Gary