[orthobiz]

BTW
just got an audioadvisor catalog and the PS Audio GCPH is 699.

Paul

[ecramer]

So now that there is a couple of TT setups here does anybody think if we took one and set it up in Zybar / George system He would give up computer audio and move over to Dark Side. Or that we could even compete with the sound of His digital front end.

ED

[zybar]

So now that there is a couple of TT setups here does anybody think if we took one and set it up in Zybar / George system He would give up computer audio and move over to Dark Side. Or that we could even compete with the sound of His digital front end.

ED

Could it compete?  I am sure it could.

Would I give up computer based audio?  Not a chance!!

George

[mbakes]

I have both computer audio (SB Duet/Headamp Pico Dac) and my Serac tt.  I prefer the tt over any computer based audio setups I've had (Wavelength Cosecant, Apogee Duet to name a couple).  Having said that, I still like having the option of listening to almost a TB of lossless music at the push of a button.  Both setups complement each other.

[toobluvr]

Compared to a cdp.....and especially compared to computer based digital.....vinyl is severely inconvenient.

But my turntable right now is just killing all my cd players.....and I have some pretty good ones.  And I spent tons less than $5k for it.

Having said that, since I'm stuck in the stone age with one box cd players, I'm sure Zybar's digital front end is substantially better than mine.  So his digital vs analog comparison might be a lot closer.

[ecramer]

Compared to a cdp.....and especially compared to computer based digital.....vinyl is severely inconvenient.

But my turntable right now is just killing all my cd players.....and I have some pretty good ones.  And I spent tons less than $5k for it.

Having said that, since I'm stuck in the stone age with one box cd players, I'm sure Zybar's digital front end is substantially better than mine.  So his digital vs analog comparison might be a lot closer.

I agree with t you 100% Vinyl is more of an affair of the heart.  It really can be a PIA to setup and keep up and no where near as convenient as CBD is. But when i put on my copy of Peggy Lee's Black Coffee on my TT Magic just happens that is just not there when i play the cd.

ED
 

[zybar]

Compared to a cdp.....and especially compared to computer based digital.....vinyl is severely inconvenient.

But my turntable right now is just killing all my cd players.....and I have some pretty good ones.  And I spent tons less than $5k for it.

Having said that, since I'm stuck in the stone age with one box cd players, I'm sure Zybar's digital front end is substantially better than mine.  So his digital vs analog comparison might be a lot closer.

I agree with t you 100% Vinyl is more of an affair of the heart.  It really can be a PIA to setup and keep up and no where near as convenient as CBD is. But when i put on my copy of Peggy Lee's Black Coffee on my TT Magic just happens that is just not there when i play the cd.

ED
 

Ed,

Funny you mention Miss Lee...that is one of my reference albums and the magic absolutely happens for me in my system.  I feel totally immersed and connected at an emotion level when I play that album.

George

[TheChairGuy]

Having said that, since I'm stuck in the stone age with one box cd players, I'm sure Zybar's digital front end is substantially better than mine.  So his digital vs analog comparison might be a lot closer.

Maybe.  I cannot comment specifically on George's system as I have not heard it....but, the spread between $299 one box and $multi-thousand digital systems, to me, is not vast.  They are just nuances of betterment on the Redbook format.

That's more a compliment than anything else....most of it now sounds uniformly decent at any price, brand and any iteration of it.

Until you move to DVD-A or other higher-res source (I've said it before, but it's worth mentioning again...SACD sounds damn odd to my ears each time heard but I'm getting lonely in that sentiment as I have heard few others complain about it ), you're just choosing from among the prettiest, priciest or more convenient of the bunch with small upside gains.

For sure, one butts up against declining returns of the format itself with vinyl too after (perhaps) $1500 and a Technics SL-1200 or Rega P3 with a decent cartridge...but as mostly mechanical devices, there are wider ranges of efficacy among them

But a $5000, carefully chosen vinyl system would make anybody re-think their standard main source of front end software if they've been listening to any digital formats exclusively aa

John

[JoshK]

its been said already, but i prefer vinyl in some ways.  its the lack of availability in the music i like that it the drawback.  new lp releases are picking up but it still is not broad enough to cover my music purchases.

[ecramer]

Compared to a cdp.....and especially compared to computer based digital.....vinyl is severely inconvenient.

But my turntable right now is just killing all my cd players.....and I have some pretty good ones.  And I spent tons less than $5k for it.

Having said that, since I'm stuck in the stone age with one box cd players, I'm sure Zybar's digital front end is substantially better than mine.  So his digital vs analog comparison might be a lot closer.

I agree with t you 100% Vinyl is more of an affair of the heart.  It really can be a PIA to setup and keep up and no where near as convenient as CBD is. But when i put on my copy of Peggy Lee's Black Coffee on my TT Magic just happens that is just not there when i play the cd.

ED
 

Ed,

Funny you mention Miss Lee...that is one of my reference albums and the magic absolutely happens for me in my system.  I feel totally immersed and connected at an emotion level when I play that album.

George

I wonder if that means i need to work on my cdp / dac combo   I am pretty happy with digital front end at the moment.  Miss Lee is a treasure. I think i will just have to get her out and give her a spin.

ED

[zybar]

Maybe.  I cannot comment specifically on George's system as I have not heard it....but, the spread between $299 one box and $multi-thousand digital systems, to me, is not vast.  They are just nuances of betterment on the Redbook format.

That's more a compliment than anything else....most of it now sounds uniformly decent at any price, brand and any iteration of it.

Until you move to DVD-A or other higher-res source (I've said it before, but it's worth mentioning again...SACD sounds damn odd to my ears each time heard but I'm getting lonely in that sentiment as I have heard few others complain about it ), you're just choosing from among the prettiest, priciest or more convenient of the bunch with small upside gains.

For sure, one butts up against declining returns of the format itself with vinyl too after (perhaps) $1500 and a Technics SL-1200 or Rega P3 with a decent cartridge...but as mostly mechanical devices, there are wider ranges of efficacy among them

But a $5000, carefully chosen vinyl system would make anybody re-think their standard main source of front end software if they've been listening to any digital formats exclusively aa

John

John,

When you are comparing the differences between the $299 and multi-thousand digital front ends, are they in systems capable of highlighting the differences?  Are these systems you are familiar with?  Have you performed this type of comparison recently or are you using your prior experiences with your heavily modified digital gear?

While I won't debate your preferences for vinyl over digital, I simply have a very hard time believing you can't hear a significant improvement between a very inexpensive digital setup and one costing thousands.  You might not think it is worth it, or that it doesn't compare to vinyl, but you really can't hear the difference? 

Your last statement is also a little over the top and one I would challenge.  I don't think everybody would agree that the sonics from a $5k vinyl front end would be preferable to a $5k digital front end and would cause anybody to rethink what their main source is.  This is especially true if we bring in the areas of usability, ease, and availability of content and not just focus on musical performance.

It really is too bad that you are all the way across the country and not closer.  I would love for you to come over and hear my system and vice-versa.  A local friend has a pretty good analog setup (VPI Scoutmaster table, Manley Steelhead phono stage, I can't remember the cartridge he is using), maybe I can convince him to bring it over for a listen some time.  He is in the process of adding a Modwright Transporter (based on what he has heard at my place), so I can also do a pretty good comparison at his place as well.

This has been a great thread with lots of good recommendations and has also shown how we can all discuss things in a civil manner while not necessarily agreeing on all things.   

George

[doug s.]

i have about a $600 digital rig, and i have compared it to digital systems in the $2k-$8k range in highly revealing systems, both transport and computer based, and it easily has held its own.  i enjoy it a lot, and cannot imagine getting rid of digital in favor of analog, tho i prefer analog.  there's too much stuff not awailable on analog, and digital is so much more conwenient.  i cannot imagine upgrading my digital rig anymore, either, unless something comes along an order of magnitude better.  i don't see that happening any time soon.

ymmv,

doug s.

[toobluvr]

I wonder if that means i need to work on my cdp / dac combo   I am pretty happy with digital front end at the moment.  Miss Lee is a treasure. I think i will just have to get her out and give her a spin.

ED

I always have the same exact thought and nagging doubts!

I can listen to my digital front end(s) for hours on end, and think "this is great, can it really get that much better?"

Then I put an LP on and I know it can.  And I only spent a few hundred more for my vinyl setup......both formats bought used.

This does not necessarily mean that vinyl always beats digital.  Maybe it just means that I need to spend more on the digital before it surpasses the vinyl.

I dunno.....
 

My guess is that when comparing apples to apples....operating at a fixed price point to keep things fair.....that vinyl will beat digital.   My other guess is that digital can be superior, but only at a higher price point.

[doug s.]

toobluvr, i would hazard that a decent well-put-together $5k winyl rig will beat any digital rig at any price.  (assuming direct a-b of the same recording, both digital and winyl.)  if you shop used, i bet you could do it for $3k.  i also suspect that $1.5k would do it, least 95% of the time, if not 100%.  this, of course, is imo, and ymmv...   

doug s.

[TheChairGuy]

Again, toobluvr nails it again succinctly for me  (are you sure you're not me, John? )

George/zybar....my last statement about rethinking digital vs. vinyl was only that - a re-think.  Not necessarily would one toss an enjoyable digital system for an analog one.  Only, that it makes you re-think certain virtues.  For me, it's only sound quality..convenience of digital technologies is a given

If anything, the higher range systems have had more expensive digital front ends to assess things....and those with $299.00 to (arbitrary) $1000.00 price points (not that you cannot get pretty damn good sound out of $59 players either, these days!) one boxes have lesser ancillary equipment.  Nonetheless, the differences can be heard...but the inherent flaws of redbook still quite apparent. It just doesn't sound real, natural or resolving in any equipment I have heard next to even modestly priced vinyl with clean records.

I admit to hearing less varied digital systems of late as I have admittedly tossed redbook into the 'hopelessly flawed, but entirely enjoyable' format(s) pile now.  The same place I place DVD-A....with a slightly different fun factor granted to it.

To me, aside from convenience, a few $$$ thousand is better spent on a vinyl system than hoping to improve over a $299-$1000 one-box bought in the last 5 years or so (when nearly all DVD/CDP's have proven to sound pretty good)

Ciao, John

I always have the same exact thought and nagging doubts!

I can listen to my digital front end(s) for hours on end, and think "this is great, can it really get that much better?"

Then I put an LP on and I know it can.  And I only spent a few hundred more for my vinyl setup......both formats bought used.

This does not necessarily mean that vinyl always beats digital.  Maybe it just means that I need to spend more on the digital before it surpasses the vinyl.

I dunno.....
 

My guess is that when comparing apples to apples....operating at a fixed price point to keep things fair.....that vinyl will beat digital.   My other guess is that digital can be superior, but only at a higher price point.

[rajacat]

I use both vinyl and computer audio. To me this is the logical approach. Sometimes certain albums aren't available on both formats.  Sometimes vinyl sounds better and sometimes my modified SB and dac kick ass. The important thing is to keep an open mind/ears. I can understand why some vinyl heads with extensive record collections can get defensive about their chosen media but for someone who doesn't have an extensive investment in records I think a mixed approach is the best strategy. Even when 24/192 becomes commonplace and affordable there will still be hard core vinyl freaks who will turn up their noses at digital audio.

-Roy

[orthobiz]

Interesting thread. I've been hanging at stevehoffman.tv and much of this discussion is complicated by what exactly you're listening to.

So if you are buying CD's specially mastered at mapleshaderecords.com, made specifically to sound great for the sake of great sound, then you're probably gonna do well with your digital front end. But I'm not gonna listen to Carlo Pezzimenti & Aaron Cotton do an album called Diplogenesis.  I want to listen to the music of specific artists and specific performances, not of specific labels with special recording capabilities. I mean, I have the Sheffield Thelma Houston and Dave Grusin Direct-to-the-Lathe LP's but I haven't listened to them in 25 years.

Anyway, I read that pink label Capricorn LP Allman Bros Live at the Fillmore is the best and lo and behold that's what I have at home. But then on stevehoffman the “hottest” mastering job is with "GP" inscribed in the deadwax and mine has "DK." So I post about it and get a reply that mine is also considered great, just not the best. And these people replying know who GP and DK are! And sometimes it could even by GP or DK themselves posting. They're so over the top they make me feel normal!!!

And it all spills into the CD world. Which version, which label, etc. Remastering (you'd think) should make a positive difference, but a lot of times it's too bright, too this, too that. When they sent someone to the vault to get the original tape, it might not be the original. Sometimes the CD is done from needledrop vinyl???!

Time after time, seems like everything gets compared to the original vinyl version and no CD version has yet to compare. So, with me sitting on 1000+ records, I can use my vinyl rig(s) to enjoy them. I hate to admit that my Allman album is hissier than I remember it, but it has great dynamic range and pops and all is still totally engaging and enjoyable. So when the new Zappa Hot Rats came out on classicrecords.com, I put my old one on Bizarre records, kicked up my feet sat back and listened and smiled.

So, the real answer is you gotta, simply gotta have both: analog and digital. More often than not I'm dusting off my Rega Saturn CDP than my Linn Sondek. If you're a fan of music, it's not digital v. vinyl, it's digital AND vinyl.

Oops, think I'm a bit off-topic.

Paul

[GregC]

My bedroom setup consists of the following:

Shelter 901 Cartridge - $750
Origin Live kit table - $600
Origin Live Silver Mk 1 arm - $695 (TWL tweak)
Upgraded Origin Live Controller, D-200 motor, transformer - $1300
Bel Canto PHONO1 stage - $400

Much of my setup was purchased new so it cost more, but for $3745 I am extremely happpy with my setup.

[toobluvr]

Again, toobluvr nails it again succinctly for me  (are you sure you're not me, John? )

Welllll.....
We do have the same first name!

Separated at birth perhaps?

 

Signed:  "The other John"

[TheChairGuy]

...and I'm from Syosset, Long Island! (as I think you are, too - Long Island, that is)

The 'other' John

Welllll.....
We do have the same first name!

Separated at birth perhaps?

 

Signed:  "The other John"