[jhm731]

Rich- Mahalo for posting the floorplan of your listening room, it makes these discussions of Master Set speaker placement a lot easier to understand.

Steve- how about posting a floorplan of your listening room with your Master Set placement and equipment?

Hugh- what happen to the picture of your listening room?

Dan


My Current set-up: Duetta w/U-byte cable->Aberdeen Tact RCS 2.2XP->Aberdeen Tact S2150->Volent VL-2s. Other digital sources: Theta Jade and AppleTV via an upgrade Genesis Digital Lens.

Dan,
In lieu of a drawing or pics at the moment, I'll give a simple description.
Room is 14' X 13' X 10' tall.  There is a large bay window along one of the 13' walls.  There is a fireplace sticking out into the room along one of the 14' walls.  Everything is along the clear 14' wall. Speakers are 7' apart about 3 1/2' out from sidewall to center of woofer.
It's a small room for sure, and in conventional set has terrible sound with lots of reflections to muddy things up.
With MS, great sound with no reflections.

Steve

PS. I'll try to get some pics eventually posted.

Steve-

What speakers are you using and how far out are they from "the clear 14' wall,"  and how far off the back wall is your listening position?

Dan

PS- I'd still like to see a Master Set measurement that looks better than  Dave Stephens': http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1211754811.jpg.

-20db at 40hz doesn't make me want to move my speakers closer to the back wall.

[stvnharr]

Thanks Mucho Steven! I can tell you really love this stuff!

Here's a floorplan of my listening area. This old drawing pictures speakers against the 22' long wall, pointing into the kitchen echo chamber. I moved the speakers to the fireplace wall recently, which sounds better with typical tape measure setup. Eventually I will try Master Set on the long wall again, but mght as well see what this wall can yield, as it suits the lifestyle concerns better. 

Thanks
Rich

Rich,
I've had another look at your drawing now, and I have a different opinion than my short one earlier.  Basically this is that setting up on the fireplace wall is about the worst place to set up. While you are clearly getting some of the benefits of the speakers being in the Dead Zone, you have such an irregular area of space to fill from that position that I can see why you never really got much of a matching position with the second speaker.  But you obviously did okay.
I think you'll have a much better Master Set if you set up along the 22' wall.  I think there is less irregularity of space to fill there.  This is not too dissimilar to the situation I have in my other Master Set situations.
For now, just listen awhile.  When you get the energy to do it all over again, I might actually have a tip or two to help you out a bit.

Steve

[stvnharr]

Dan,
I don't mean to speak for Dave, but he has a rather compromised situation for the setup at his place. He's posted pics on audiogon of his setup, which I would think you have seen.  He would have far better measurements if he were set up along a long solid wall. And I'm sure he'd tell you that himself. I wouldn't put too much stock in the measurements.

My speakers here are Osborn Titan References.  The center of the woofer is approximately a couple feet out from the rear wall.  The anchor speaker is well in to the Dead Zone.  The other speaker is barely into the Dead Zone. 

I'm now going to add a little to this post, after some listening and thinking.  I did measure the anchor speaker, and it is just as I wrote above, just for the record.

I'm thinking that this idea of "The Dead Zone", and I'm not sure where I read that but I think it was in an audiogon post, is kind of a novel concept, but I think it is the secret to why MS sounds so good.  It's easy to find from the starting set, as you just move one speaker out until all sound is heard only from that speaker.  This is where that speaker decouples from the wall behind it, which the other speaker is coupled to by being up against it.  I read in a post, audiogon again I think, that one of the Sumiko experiments and seminars was about speakers close to room boundaries, and they found that a speaker close to, not necessarily up against, a wall essentially was coupled to that wall with the wall acting as a speaker baffle. Obviously you need to get the speaker out and away from that.  And that's fairly universal.
But when you move the speaker out too far, it then recouples with the other speaker, thru room effects (reflections?) I would guess.  This is also easy to find by just moving the one speaker out farther into the room from where it seems isolated.
As I mentioned earlier, I don't know the physics of it, but it seems that when a speaker is in this Dead Zone that neither the wall nor the room really affect things much.  When Rich mentioned that the room space seemed to disappear, that made me listen a little differently, and to think a little.

Dan, this might all just sound like gobbledegoop to you, but something is definitely going on in this small area of the room.  It would be different with every room/speaker combination, not really a set dimension, though in a fairly similar area in every room.

This is also why I think you need to go here speakers set up in MS.  Listening to an MS set is what got me going in the first place, not some words in a thread on a forum.  Hopefully there is a Sumiko dealer somewhere within a day's drive of your location.  A simple listen will do a whole lot more than any amount of words I might write.

Steve

[richidoo]

Thanks for the ideas. I will try the longer wall soon. Thanks for giving it some thought.

IMO, the frequency response curve of dcstep's room is too smoothed for accurate analysis of the bass frequencies. Those minor dips could be hiding powerful high Q modes which are easily audible. It's OK to average out the midrange comb-filtering, but not bass modes which need fixin. Actually, a +/- 10dB response, full range, without smoothing would actually be a quite excellent response for a home listening room. Most wives would disapprove of the appearance of a room with such a good frequency response. My wife calls it "the recording studio look." But she likes the speakers new position, back in "flower pot" territory 

Steven, somewhere in this thread or one of the other AC threads about Master Set, somebody mentioned that Wilson Audio Specialties uses a variation of the Master Set. I don't know if that's true because I've never seen a Wilson setup done. I have read that the Wilson technique involves listening to one's own singing while moving the head around to find a good spot, then fine tuning the speaker with music. In any case, I have heard Wilson WP7 setup according to their rules at the local Wilson/Audio research dealer. That session is still (2 years later) my peak audio experience to date. The system played everything perfectly. I never knew stereo could do that, or make me feel that way. It was a very wide setup along the long wall maybe 14 feet apart, very close to the front wall, very clear soundstaging and clarity. Musically very engaging, and emotional on everything from Elvis to Beethoven.  The room was covered in 1" thick FG panel, with mild bass treatment, but it was the setup that made the difference. How do I know? Because I brought my wife back a week later to show her what all this money we were spending on my new hifi hobby was supposed to be able to do. I was also very excited to hear that incredible sound again. We arrived and the right speaker was out of place. The night before they moved it out of the way so B&W speakers on the right wall could be demoed. The guy picked up the WP and placed it down on the tape marks, but the magic was gone. Whatever small difference happened let all the air out of the setup. When I asked the salesman why it doesn't sound the same as last week, he said, "I don't know nothing has changed." I thought to myself, "nothing except the right speaker position." But back then I didn't know that such a small variance could make such a huge difference. Anyway, it was a life changing experience that really dug my roots into this hobby. So I have been seeking that same sound in my own house, hopefully without paying $120k for all that superbrand gear. Speaker placement seems to be more of an ingredient in that magic that I previously thought. I will try to find a Sumiko dealer who does MS around here.

I did also try some warble tones to test the low bass response. It does not seem to have changed much in the deepest bass warbles, which just mush into one rumble, but that is function of the loose wooden construction of the home and suspended joist floor, not so much the speaker placement. Low notes at 20-30Hz are not as important as 50-100Hz where all the bass satisfaction is.  Maybe with a proper Master Set lowest notes would improve further.

I have the speakers aimed directly toward my listening spot now, it is very intense and satisfying, which is why I bought these speakers, to increase textural detail. But yesterday my 10yo son remarked from within the kitchen area when a well recorded baroque string recording came on the radio that it "really sounds good!" as if that were out of the ordinary. I laughed and took it as a compliment anyway, and give credit to the setup which is the only thing that has changed. So the midrange intensity travels around the whole space.
Rich

[stvnharr]

Hi Rich,
I do not know anything about Wilson's method of setting speakers.  And it's been quite awhile since I've heard any of them at all, since I seldom ever venture into an audio store anymore.  Rod Tomsen has been to Dave Wilson's house and said the sound it was pretty good.

At this point I think you would helped immensely if you were able to hear a proper Master Set.  It would give you a reference to aim at as you do things.  I'd have to say that that really did help me a lot, such that I really knew when I had found "IT".

Anyway, it sounds like you've got some good sound now, so just enjoy it a bit.  Moving things around takes a bit of energy to get going.

Steve

[jhm731]

somewhere in this thread or one of the other AC threads about Master Set, somebody mentioned that Wilson Audio Specialties uses a variation of the Master Set. I don't know if that's true because I've never seen a Wilson setup done. I have read that the Wilson technique involves listening to one's own singing while moving the head around to find a good spot, then fine tuning the speaker with music.

Rich

Rich-

Thought you might enjoy this thread which covers the installation of Wilson X-2s at TAS Editor Robert Harley's home:

http://www.avguide.com/forums/wilson-x-2-installation-rhs-house

The front of the X-2s are 43" off the back wall of RH's 14.5'w x 21'l x 9'h listening room.

The Wilson method involves listening and the use of a spectrum analyzer.

RH says:

"The bass of this system is the best I've heard, and not just in deep extension as one would expect from a large system. The articulation, dynamics, and definition are astounding. The integration with the room is the best I've heard."

Dan

PS- BTW, I don't put too much stock in dcstep's room measurements, but they're only Master Set measurements I've seen posted anywhere.

[richidoo]

Thanks for the link Dan, interesting! Good to know there is a systematic setup procedure they use, not just by ear. I'll try to find out more about it.

My Wilson dealer is also Sumiko dealer.

EDIT: Found these old articles about Wilson Audio Setup Procedure (wasp). No mention of RTA 10 years ago.
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/477/index6.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html

[stvnharr]

Thanks for the link Dan, interesting! Good to know there is a systematic setup procedure they use, not just by ear. I'll try to find out more about it.

My Wilson dealer is also Sumiko dealer.

EDIT: Found these old articles about Wilson Audio Setup Procedure (wasp). No mention of RTA 10 years ago.
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/477/index6.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html

A proper Master Set will give much better sound!

[jhm731]

Thanks for the link Dan, interesting! Good to know there is a systematic setup procedure they use, not just by ear. I'll try to find out more about it.

My Wilson dealer is also Sumiko dealer.

EDIT: Found these old articles about Wilson Audio Setup Procedure (wasp). No mention of RTA 10 years ago.
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/477/index6.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html

A proper Master Set will give much better sound!

Steve-

"A proper Master Set will give much better sound!"

How do you know?  Have you compared them?

Have you taken measurements to confirm that your Master Set has really smoothed your bass response and it's not just a pleasant Fletcher-Munson Curve enhancement?

I've heard the Wilson Maxx 2s at a dealer who was trained by Wilson.

The SQ of this Wilson set-up was outstanding.

Dan

[stvnharr]

Thanks for the link Dan, interesting! Good to know there is a systematic setup procedure they use, not just by ear. I'll try to find out more about it.

My Wilson dealer is also Sumiko dealer.

EDIT: Found these old articles about Wilson Audio Setup Procedure (wasp). No mention of RTA 10 years ago.
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/477/index6.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html

A proper Master Set will give much better sound!

Steve-

"A proper Master Set will give much better sound!"

How do you know?  Have you compared them?

Have you taken measurements to confirm that your Master Set has really smoothed your bass response and it's not just a pleasant Fletcher-Munson Curve enhancement?

I've heard the Wilson Maxx 2s at a dealer who was trained by Wilson.

The SQ of this Wilson set-up was outstanding.

Dan

Dan,
I'm pleased at your satisfaction with the Wilson method. 
All the Best,
Steve

[richidoo]

Sorry for the off topic.... I only intended to illustrate how important setup is based on my previous experience. The Sonus dealer doesn't have anything setup with Master Set.

[stvnharr]

Sorry for the off topic.... I only intended to illustrate how important setup is based on my previous experience. The Sonus dealer doesn't have anything setup with Master Set.

Rich,
I've just edited my post.
There's nothing wrong with discussion.
I'm not real sure how integrated the Sumiko dealers are with Master Set.  I think it varies.  Rod at Soundings is the one who has really run with it I think.  I've obviously been quite impressed with his results.
Eventually there is to be a DVD come out about doing Master Set.  It should be quite helpful, I would think. Maybe next RMAF, I dunno.

Steve
 

[jazdoc]

Gang,

Just spent the past 2 hours with the Master Set procedure.  Other than being suicidal if I ever hear "Ballad of a Runaway Horse" again, I am very pleased  . Tremendous improvement in the sound of my system and it cost nothing.  I'm particularly impressed how with the stability of the sound as I walk around the room.  Thanks to everyone on this thread  !

Mark

[stvnharr]

Gang,

Just spent the past 2 hours with the Master Set procedure.  Other than being suicidal if I ever hear "Ballad of a Runaway Horse" again, I am very pleased  . Tremendous improvement in the sound of my system and it cost nothing.  I'm particularly impressed how with the stability of the sound as I walk around the room.  Thanks to everyone on this thread  !

Mark

Mark,
Wow, what great news.
It's good to know that all the writing here has helped make something happen, and maybe will inspire other attempts to do this.

Steve

[stvnharr]

So nice to read Mark's comments above.
Yesterday I had to do some tweaking with my Set, for a variety of reasons, and played around with some things that I had not previously done.

Rich had brought up the subject of lateral movement in setting the second speaker.  I played a little with this as I needed to reset the second speaker.  I found that I couldn't move it laterally very much without shifting the sound too much either to or away from that speaker. Lateral movement though can be very important in the intial setup if the room is highly imbalanced in dimension and the centered image is off to one side or the other from dead center.

Another thing I did in resetting the second speaker was to move it out equal distance from rear wall as the anchor speaker. This put the centered sound off to the side of the anchor speaker, even when I sat in the centered position. Of course I already knew that the left side of the room is much larger than the right side and that the left speaker needed to be louder, thus closer to the rear wall, than the anchor, but this can be a good measurer of which way the second speaker needs to go. If the sound is pretty centered in this even distance set, then the second speaker likely won't have to be moved much, likely +- an inch. If the sound is well off to one side, then the corrective action is easier to decide.

I also played a bit with toe in.  I have a really small room, and toe in, or out, makes a big change.  I found the best sound with the speakers toed directly in at me when I sat at the triangle point of the initial set up.  If I would toe out the second speaker very much, it just shifted a lot of sound to that speaker, especially when I sat off to that side.
And remember, and as Mark stated above, the evenness of sound and frequency distribution within the room is what helps Master Set sound so good.

In the end, I ended up getting the speaker back in the previous position, within 1 mm or so.  I compared measurements before and after.  The matching point for the second speaker is indeed a small point.


Steve

[richidoo]

Thanks Mark and Steve for the feedback and new ideas.  I like that idea about centering the image with the 2nd speaker / room size. I have moved the speakers to the long wall and will do the Master set again this week. The right speaker is now 5 feet from the side wall, and the other is very far.
"Say a prayer for the Master Set boy." 

[stvnharr]

Thanks Mark and Steve for the feedback and new ideas.  I like that idea about centering the image with the 2nd speaker / room size. I have moved the speakers to the long wall and will do the Master set again this week. The right speaker is now 5 feet from the side wall, and the other is very far.
"Say a prayer for the Master Set boy." 

Rich,
Wow, you're a glutton for this.  I used to wait a week between set.
I think you'll have better luck along the long wall.
With your "unbalanced room", i.e. not a good rectangle, take some time in the initial setup to get a good centered mono image.  A mono recording or just a solo acoustic guitar recording will do. I did not put this in my writeups as most rooms are not as "unbalanced", as one of my rooms. And beware, this might take you a long time to get right, but it can be done.  I think in the end I had to have the speakers a bit closer together than I originally thought.
But every room and speaker interface is different.

Steve

[richidoo]

Yes, I did give it a week or two, ready for more torture. I forgot the words so I need to hear it again... haha

I like the room this way better anyway, the soundstage is huge with far away sidewalls. So I hope it can be tamed by MS. I told my wife I would be playing "that song" again, she was glad she would not be home tomorrow.

To clarify, the first step is basically to get the speakers as far apart as possible while still maintaining a solid mono center image, and 3+ft distance from sidewalls? This is done with speakers perpendicular to, and close against the front wall. Do I have that right? Thanks

Two great "mono" recordings that I love are Miles Davis 'Kind of Blue' which I have listened to since my father gave me the LP in 1977. so I know it very well. It seems like stereo, but actually it is a 3 track recording, Center, left and right, as is Sketches of Spain. They are both recorded live with plenty of spill into all the mics, so it sounds like a coherent stereophonic soundfield, but the images in the center are actually true mono, without panning effects. Miles' image on the center track is like granite and is great for setting width. It was state of the art for Columbia Records in 1956. The other is a true mono recording of Clifford Brown / Max Roach Quintet, Clifford playing 'I Don't stand a Ghost of a chance with You,' a great recording from Capital studio B in Hollywood from 1954, with the whole band dead center.
Rich

[56oval]

Hi Hugh.

All you need to do is add a TASS system    .How you been good I hope .

Cheers

Mal

[AKSA]

Hi Malcolm,

Ah, yes, how could we forget Surya?  I will never forget that night of technical description, with Jamie lighting his cigarettes as he chain smoked his way through the Melbourne Audio Club presentation at his shop.  It felt like the set of Alice in Wonderland......

All well, more designs coming onstream soon, love to see you here for a visit!

Cheers,

Hugh