[DSK]

Drats ... just checked my copy of Famous Blue Rain Coat .. no BOTRH!

I wonder ... once the procedure is almost complete and you tweak the toe-in, does toe-out (by the same number of degrees) provide the same benefits ...

[andyr]

Drats ... just checked my copy of Famous Blue Rain Coat .. no BOTRH!

I wonder ... once the procedure is almost complete and you tweak the toe-in, does toe-out (by the same number of degrees) provide the same benefits ...

Darren, you need the "25th Anniversary Edition" released in 2008.  It's on 45rpm vinyl ... I presume they also issued a CD?    Which of course won't sound anywhere near as good as the 45rpm LP!! 

Regards,

Andy

[jhm731]

Interesting info on speaker positioning:

http://www.genelec-ht.com/learning-center/faq/acoustical/bass/

[andyr]

Interesting info on speaker positioning:

http://www.genelec-ht.com/learning-center/faq/acoustical/bass/

Yes, interesting article ... but I wonder if the "facts" presented are in fact correct? 

Certainly there will be a dip in the response at the listening chair ... whose frequency depends on how far the acoustic centre of the bass driver is away from the front wall.

However, let's look at the green line on the frequency graph (which is supposedly the speaker's response in an anechoic chamber - ie. without room effects).  This shows a flat line down to 40hz ... where it starts to tail off.

Trouble is ... as far as I know (and, yes, I could certainly be misinformed!  ) bass drivers don't behave like that!     There is always a resonance peak at some low frequency ... this is the intrinsic driver LF resonant point.  I have used a dB meter to measure the frequency response of my bass drivers (I run a 3-way active system, so I can turn off the amps powering the other drivers) and the Maggie bass panels have a pronounced peak at about 58hz (which is 6dB or so above the average level).

So the green line for the Genelec speakers will not be flat to 40hz ... it should show the resonance peak of the Genelec bass driver.   

If we assume the bass driver resonance peak is at, say 60hz, then - given we are stuck with 1/4 wavelength cancellation at some frequency - it makes sense to position the acoustic centre of the bass driver at the distance which generates a null at the resonant frequency.

IE. for a bass driver which has a resonant frequency of 60hz ... this is 4.7 ft (1.43m).

Regards,

Andy

[richidoo]

I think I got the 1st speaker finished. It is in the spot where there is minimum difference between the volume of the bass notes. Actually there is one note that still stands out a little, and moving the speaker allowed the others to come up louder, not so much reducing the ringer. There were a couple spots along the way where the midrange really came to life, including the final spot.

Now working on the other speaker. dcstep says it will be close to same distance out from front wall, but I am going in 2mm steps like steve said because I love this so much I never want it to end...    I had to give up twice yesterday from frustration, too tied to concentrate or too hungry. Get a good night sleep and a full belly before you start this. Shut off the AC and Fridge to get total silence, if possible.

[dcstep]

You guys amaze and encourage me. I can't imagine doing this without having seen it done a couple of times by someone else. The persistence required is immense, even for the experienced. Keep after it... 

Dave

[AKSA]

I agree, Dave, this takes real FAITH, almost the religious kind!

Cheers,

Hugh

[Tliner]

Hi All,

Today, after about a 24 hour period of musical celibacy to allow the ears to settle down after days of rooting around with the system, I fired it up with the intention to have a pleasent session. I was nearly blown out of the room as I had set the volume to the usual position. Now after setting the speakers I have to use about 15-20% less volume for a relaxing session. When the volume is up a bit, nearly to the "old" volume setting the system now produces much more punch/dynamics than before "Master Setting".

rough notes made by my uncle on the subject of speaker placement dated 15-10-59.
It would appear that there is very little difference between his notes and Master Set principles. There is one very interesting comment that could give some light on why is it so.

" From experimenting with speaker box placement (stereo) there appears to be a correlation between speaker cone angle allowing the music 5to be opened up filling the room more or less evenly. The listener, if in an central listening position, observes the inside of a speaker cone, with the side to the centre of the room is on more or less perpendicular plane to the listener. I deduce that if the listener in the central position with the focal point of the speakers set 1-2 yards in front of the listener is subject to a wider dis bursion of sound waves rather than if the speakers were facing directly at the listener. This creates the illusion of a wide musical area similar to listening to a orchestra on a stage, IE, wall to wall sound in front of the listener without a dedicated focal point. It must be the angle of the speaker cone in relation to the listener that provides a detailed but wide listening area."

All very interesting. Another discussion point on speaker placement? 

Cheers,
Laurie.

[jhm731]

Hi All,

Today, after about a 24 hour period of musical celibacy to allow the ears to settle down after days of rooting around with the system, I fired it up with the intention to have a pleasent session. I was nearly blown out of the room as I had set the volume to the usual position. Now after setting the speakers I have to use about 15-20% less volume for a relaxing session. When the volume is up a bit, nearly to the "old" volume setting the system now produces much more punch/dynamics than before "Master Setting".

rough notes made by my uncle on the subject of speaker placement dated 15-10-59.
It would appear that there is very little difference between his notes and Master Set principles. There is one very interesting comment that could give some light on why is it so.

" From experimenting with speaker box placement (stereo) there appears to be a correlation between speaker cone angle allowing the music 5to be opened up filling the room more or less evenly. The listener, if in an central listening position, observes the inside of a speaker cone, with the side to the centre of the room is on more or less perpendicular plane to the listener. I deduce that if the listener in the central position with the focal point of the speakers set 1-2 yards in front of the listener is subject to a wider dis bursion of sound waves rather than if the speakers were facing directly at the listener. This creates the illusion of a wide musical area similar to listening to a orchestra on a stage, IE, wall to wall sound in front of the listener without a dedicated focal point. It must be the angle of the speaker cone in relation to the listener that provides a detailed but wide listening area."

All very interesting. Another discussion point on speaker placement? 

Cheers,
Laurie.

Laurie-

I'll bet if you had taken before and after measurements of your speakers, you'd find that  "Master Setting," IE- moving the speakers closer to the back wall, has elevated the bass response from 50hz to 200hz, just like you can see in Dave Stephens' measurements: http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1211754811.jpg.

Elevating the response in this region will create the feeling of "much more punch/dynamics."

I agree with your uncle that the amount of toe-in, helps create the illusion of a wide musical stage. IMO, speakers with
tweeters that have good off axis response and smaller diameter midrange drivers need less toe-in and will create a wide detailed listening area.

Two way stand mounted speakers excel at this.

I heard a pair of Magico Mini IIs yesterday.  Listening to Van Morrison's new Astral Weeks Live CD, they produced a hugh detailed soundstage with deep tight bass, positioned five feet off the back wall of a 16'w x 20'l x 10'h listening room.

Dan

[stvnharr]

Hello Again Everyone,
Interesting reading here, as I've been gone the past few days.  It seems that I have let the Genie out of the bottle.
Dave Stephens is the one who, without knowing it, gave the clue last December that allowed me to get a perfect Master Set done.  This so imbued me with confidence that I wrote up things as I did with the feeling that anyone can do this if I describe it perfectly.
But I see now that I have to "tweak" some things up.

First, I have a distinct advantage in that I have heard Master Set that was set by a real pro, and so I always knew where the journey should end up. And after numerous trials, I indeed knew when I "got it".  This is a HUGE advantage over blindly going thru the Master Set steps and hoping for something magical to happen. The difference between "getting it" and being close is tricky.  And if that wasn't enough, there is, or can be, great difficulty in hearing "that which is to be heard" while doing the Master Set steps.
So, I'll try to revisit a few things.

I like the binoculars adjustment comparison so I'll correlate to that.
Step 1, adjusting the two lenses to one head to get a single image.
This is the beginning step of having the speakers against the wall spead apart.  You want the speakers as far apart as reasonable, maintain a solid centered mono image, and still have them 3 feet or more from a side wall.  This all depends on room dimensions and such. While this hasn't come up in any discussion, I didn't really go over this in my writing. Keep the speakers out from the sidewall(s) at all costs. Listening to a mono recording here can help, if you have difficulty.

Step 2, adjusting the fixed lens.
This is setting the "anchor".  One thing that I haven't gotten into is "The Dead Zone", that the anchor speaker is set in.  This is the area where the sound all seems to come from the one speaker with both speakers playing.  My descriptions just go to finding the beginning of this area, and then to the smoothest bass spot.  But it might be a good idea to move the speaker out a few inches and find where the sound recouples with the speaker against the wall and moves to the center.  This is the outer limit of "The Dead Zone".  This area is only a few inches, 5 or 6 or so.  The most crucial part of setting the anchor speaker is that it be in this dead zone where the anchor is decoupled from the wall and the speaker up close to it. I wish I knew the physics of the dead zone, rather than this one effect, but I tend to think that this may be a very crucial part in why MS works so well.
In the Dead Zone, there are supposed to be 5 or 6 bass nodes, and these are what you are trying to find in order to smooth out the bass as best as possible.  I found it plenty hard to find just one spot, let alone search for more. I think that's for more "advanced" times. But it all happens in the Dead Zone.  It's easy to find the limits, and hard to find the spot(s). Oh, and I must add here, that only when the anchor speaker is in the Dead Zone, can the other speaker be disconnected.
BTW, I've mentioned making very small movements. When you focus binoculars you are adjusting with a constant turning adjusting lever. You can't really do that with moving a speaker, and every movement doesn't produce a difference. But it is important to keep movement small, though that does add a bit of tedium to the process.  I learned the hard way about making large movements, and have mentioned that.
Also, I might note that most conventional setup methods have the speakers out into the room farther than the Dead Zone.  And one of my very first thoughts at seeing a Master Set setup was that the speakers, VA Mahlers which are quite large, were quite close to the wall, and very close to the WAF flower pot zone.

Step 3, adjusting the adjustable lens.
This is getting the second speaker out from the wall to it's final setting.
Dave was good to note that in most rooms this second speaker will be out from the wall fairly close to the distance that the anchor speaker is.  It's only in the irregular rooms that I seem to have that there is really much difference. For the most part, people tend to have the speakers somewhat symetrically set in the room, giving things a "centered" look. Thus each speaker is going to be pressurizing a fairly similar amount of space, and it all may end up looking nearly indistinguishable from a previous set, although likely a bit closer in to the wall than before perhaps.
I think I have previously described the difficulties in finding the matching spot for this speaker.  Listen ONLY to the bass line, as the vocal line will just follow along.

Further points:
I have described MS as being good because it eliminates the sweet spot, and makes the sound virtually the same throughout the room. Being able to equally pressurize the room so that the sound is virtually the same everywhere is one way to check if you have the matching speaker in the proper place. If the sound moves when you move, there is NOT equal sound pressure everywhere in the room.

I can understand that this may not be seen as just a novelty and not anything to get excited about to a number of folks.  If you only listen by yourself most of the time, and sit in the same seat, and adjust for good sound in that one spot, other listening spots don't really matter.  Yup, all true. 
However, equal sound throughout the room is generally a good thing at a concert venue, and there is no reason for it not to be so in your personal concert venue listening room.

Also, I have described MS as being good because it removes the interspeaker distortions and phase cancellations, in other words, better sound.  Ya well, anyone who's played with moving their speakers just so, already has "better sound".  And as everyone knows, it's all a bit on the subjective side.  Yup, all true.

All I can sum up with is that when Master Set has been done well, it's a very satisfying way to listen to music, and to me, the best way.
One more thing to add is that when you have a well done Master Set that eliminates the distortions between the speakers you are also able to listen louder, listen longer, and never have listener fatigue.

[LM]

 aa Well I figure I’ve finished my fiddling with speaker positioning for now.  A bit like Laurie, I took a few days respite and thinking about what Dave (dcstep) suggested, started with my LH speaker first this time and found I was very happy with the base response at a point only about a few cm closer to the rear wall and laterally, pretty much the same as before.  Then I repeated the exercise of moving the RH speaker as discussed throughout this thread and finally played quite a bit with the toe in though again ending up again much where I started.  Again, less than a couple of cm total change for the RHS side but well worth the effort.

What worked best for me for final minor positioning and finding the best toe in, came from focussing on a vocalist – ideally central and close miked.  When the speakers were just about spot on, the central image seemed to suddenly lock in and wherever I went in the room, the vocalist stayed imaged perfectly in the centre and perhaps even a foot or so forward of previously.  It was Hugh that first noticed and pointed this out to me and the last sessions have been me refining this.  A cm or two out in positioning and the sound that may be quite nicely imaged when in the sweet spot, came much more from the speaker I was in front of when I moved laterally.  Whilst I have now ended up with what seems to be a very slightly narrower soundstage, it is far more tightly focussed and hence realistic and 3D (deeper) than before and I’ve eliminated what I had perceived previously as a slightly thin and recessed midrange response.

I had always read of needing fine adjustments to get speaker positioning just right but never knew how to take that final step.  Just so its clear to all, I have not been able to fully perform all the MS procedures as documented.  I am quite constrained in my available range of speaker positions for example and the speakers are almost certainly closer together than ideal under MS principles.  However, I've followed them as closely as possible and I’m much, much happier with my room set up now from using them as best I can so thanks again to Steve and everyone who has contributed this thread.

[stvnharr]

aa Well I figure I’ve finished my fiddling with speaker positioning for now.  A bit like Laurie, I took a few days respite and thinking about what Dave (dcstep) suggested, started with my LH speaker first this time and found I was very happy with the base response at a point only about a few cm closer to the rear wall and laterally, pretty much the same as before.  Then I repeated the exercise of moving the RH speaker as discussed throughout this thread and finally played quite a bit with the toe in though again ending up again much where I started.  Again, less than a couple of cm total change for the RHS side but well worth the effort.

What worked best for me for final minor positioning and finding the best toe in, came from focussing on a vocalist – ideally central and close miked.  When the speakers were just about spot on, the central image seemed to suddenly lock in and wherever I went in the room, the vocalist stayed imaged perfectly in the centre and perhaps even a foot or so forward of previously.  It was Hugh that first noticed and pointed this out to me and the last sessions have been me refining this.  A cm or two out in positioning and the sound that may be quite nicely imaged when in the sweet spot, came much more from the speaker I was in front of when I moved laterally.  Whilst I have now ended up with what seems to be a very slightly narrower soundstage, it is far more tightly focussed and hence realistic and 3D (deeper) than before and I’ve eliminated what I had perceived previously as a slightly thin and recessed midrange response.

I had always read of needing fine adjustments to get speaker positioning just right but never knew how to take that final step.  Just so its clear to all, I have not been able to fully perform all the MS procedures as documented.  I am quite constrained in my available range of speaker positions for example and the speakers are almost certainly closer together than ideal under MS principles.  However, I've followed them as closely as possible and I’m much, much happier with my room set up now from using them as best I can so thanks again to Steve and everyone who has contributed this thread.

Lyn,
Good that you have been able to improve things a bit. Afterall, that's what it's all ultimately about.

Steve

[AKSA]

Steve,

Thank you very much for your thorough explanation of Master Set.  I am most grateful!

See you on 27th......

Cheers,

Hugh

[stvnharr]

Steve,

Thank you very much for your thorough explanation of Master Set.  I am most grateful!

See you on 27th......

Cheers,

Hugh

Hugh,
My wishes for the best this week, and see you Friday.

Steve

[richidoo]

I learned a couple things but still not perfect yet.

In setting the anchor speaker, I was able to even out the bass in all but one frequency, the 4th of the key of the song, or "fa" on the scale. This note is tricky because the musicians emphasize this note so I can't listen for SPL difference, I must listen for clarity, lack of room resonance. This takes a bit to get used to. But No matter in the dead zone where I put the speaker It would not lose this resonance on that one note. I was tuning the anchor position the whole time with other speaker turned on. I was relieved to reread the directions said get it "as good as possible," not "get it perfect..."

I got the anchor speaker set, then found that I could not hear any difference in the 2nd speaker when I moved it through a 4 inch range 2mm at a time. 2" in front and 2" inches behind the anchor's distance from the front wall. It never "clicked" like it should, or maybe it was "clicked" through that whole range? I could not hear any change in the bass clarity or resonance. It was excellent claruty except for the one note on the scale, which happens a few times per chorus.

Next day I thought I would try listening to each speaker separately for kicks. I found that the resonant note was coming only from the 2nd speaker, not the anchor, which sounded smooth bass throughout. I had the thought that the one resonant bass note remaining in the 2nd speaker was caused by reflections between left and right walls, and the distances between that speaker and the left and right walls didn't change any distances when I moved the speaker parallel with those walls so moving in that axis would not fix the last resonance. I wanted to try movng the speakers to the left and right a little to see what happens. It took about 4cm of lateral movement of the 2nd speaker before the resonance finally disappeared and all bass notes were smooth, but then the speakers weren't centered in the room, no biggie.

At that point my friend who was here helping and who is not familiar with Master Set instructions thought to start moving things around to improve the toe, and soon the Set was history. But I did mark the spots on masking tape so returning to the original spots should be doable.

Before my friend arrived I had the anchor stil in place and the 2nd was place by tape measure at same distance out from front wall. Since I couldn't hear any difference with position change of 2nd, I figured that was good enough for me to listen for now. While maybe not perfect, I was still getting many of the benfits Steve has described. Much more intense detail and clarity. Better center image, better soundstaging, images within a couple inches of the tweeter would not stick to it. Walking around the room allowed the stage to remain whole, like walking along the back row of the concert hall. I even sat down on the floor 6 feet in front of the anchor speaker and the image remained. The toe setting was not perfect, so there is more work to do.   When my friend was here he rotated the speaker through 30 degrees while I was listening and I could not believe the variance of the tone. I never thought toe would have that huge of an effect. My midrange drivers are 4" and go up to 3.5kHz, so there is some beaming that will make toe adjustment somewhat sensitive.

I am using the short wall in my weird L shaped room, it is actually 16 feet wide, so I still have 10 foot separation with 3 feet each side outside the speakers. But the reflections from the sidewalls definitely have an effect on the Set. I think using a longer wall would make the Set easier as Steve has suggested. I think my last surviving resonant note would not have been there on long wall set. Eventually I will try the long wall. But since the room is an L, setting on the long wall means the speakers will fire into 42 foot long open area with all hard surfaces. The reflections back there are very distracting, so the short wall seems to be better overall.

One great thing that I noticed with my 1st attempt Master set was the sound of the room space had vanished. In such a large listening space, I have become hyper aware of room noise, like comb filtering, midrange echo, etc. The sound of a sheetrock large room is always there. But with Master Set, the room sound around me was greatly reduced. I had to really listen for it, which I don't do when listening to music. It no longer intruded into the music. I was also sitting about 3 feet closer to the front wall than normal with the Master Set.

Also interesting, even though the speakers were 2 feet closer to the front wall than my previous setup, the soundstage depth did not diminish very much. I think most of the soundstage depth I had before was actually room reflection ringing distortion, which made the depth seem deeper than it really is on the recording. It took some getting used to, but I liked it better. In master Set the depth seemed less echoish and more precise. Locating instruments in the back of the orchestra was much easier. The soundstage depth with master set seems about the same as a real concert when you are seated about 10 rows back. The illusion of depth is stronger and clearer, even though the perceived depth distance is not as deep, or should I say not as exagerated. These are subtle things, but orchestral recording have that info, it's nice to be able to optimize it just like tone and detail.
 
I am interested to know if you guys have ever moved the speakers left right during master set to kill a persistently 'plonky' note? My reasoning for the left/right movement is that if I were to have started the procedure with the speakers 4 inches closer to each other along the front wall then that mode would not have appeared, because moving them 4 inches closer removed the mode (but ruined the other benefits of the set.) Maybe moving speakers along the front wall in the first step to optimize bass quality in that axis would be worthwhile, as well as optimizing mono imaging. I didn't do either on my first attempt, because my previous setup was even closer to the side walls, so I just figured moving them a little closer together to get 3 feet on each side would be an improvement in center image due to closer placement. Next attempt I will listen for the solid mono center, and also for bass anomolies.  

Thanks for clarifying yet again the Master Set procedure Steve and everyone else too. Each time you write more, I learn something new and can understand a little better.

One more thing, My speakers are 300 pounds each, so moving them around while squatting down on the floor exercised muscles that I don't use often enough. I was a little sore the next day. Furniture sliders really helped even compared to the large flat bottom of the speakers. Expect a little soreness from all that shoving and pulling if you have heavy speakers.

I forgot to turn the fridge back on too. And I got busted!
Rich

[stvnharr]

Hi Rich,
Well, you are getting there!
Are you using Ballad of a Runaway Horse to do your Sets?

Some of my experiences with the second speaker have mirrored yours in that it can be hard to find a matching point.  I have also tried some lateral movement of this speaker during a set.  I'm no expert, but my experience has been that lateral movements need to be done at the very beginning, not during, a set. But that may not be so.  You had some success with this, so.......

You've got a large room. You might try moving the speakers a little closer together, like a foot, and still use the short wall. You can never be too far away from a side wall.  It's just that with a short wall set, the rear part of the room is bound to have reflections to muddy things up if you sit there.
I'm having difficulty picturing your L shaped room other than the dimensions of the "L" being 21 and 16. I take it that if you set up along the long wall, there is great irregularity in the relative sizes of the two parts from the center of the speakers.  Sounds like my first room for MS.

I've not written anything on "soundstage" per se.  With a good Master Set, all the sound will be between the two speakers. There really isn't any reflected sound to enlarge the sound into the usual full width of the room sound that you get when the speakers are way out in the room.  Lately I have been noticing that the sound all seems to be in the Dead Zone, very 3-D, but never really seeming to touch the wall behind the speakers. My guess is that this is part of the Dead Zone magic in that if the speakers are close in to the wall from the Dead Zone, the sound becomes very 2-D as the sound couples to the wall, and if the speakers are out beyond the Dead Zone, then the sound just reflects all around, including off the wall behind the speakers.
Your description of the sound seems to mirror mine pretty well.

Toe In, seems like everyone wants to play with toe in.  I don't play with toe in with my sets.  I never heard Rod mention toe in much, other than tweaking the second speaker with 1/16th inch movements of toe out from directly at the listener.  When setting the anchor speaker I keep the speaker toed in directly at me while moving it.  With the second speaker I also keep the speaker toed in directly to me at the listening position.  I've noticed that the speakers I've seen in the professional MS's are toed in quite a lot. I can't argue with the results.

Rich said,
"One great thing that I noticed with my 1st attempt Master set was the sound of the room space had vanished. In such a large listening space, I have become hyper aware of room noise, like comb filtering, midrange echo, etc. The sound of a sheetrock large room is always there. But with Master Set, the room sound around me was greatly reduced. I had to really listen for it, which I don't do when listening to music. It no longer intruded into the music. I was also sitting about 3 feet closer to the front wall than normal with the Master Set."
Yes, the above is one of the real benefits of a Master Set, and why the need for room treatment is greatly reduced.

Rich, as you found, persistence helps, and is near paramount for any kind of success.  Now you just need to listen for awhile.  Listening time will tell you if things are good, or need some tweaking.

Steve

[richidoo]

Thanks Mucho Steven! I can tell you really love this stuff!

Here's a floorplan of my listening area. This old drawing pictures speakers against the 22' long wall, pointing into the kitchen echo chamber. I moved the speakers to the fireplace wall recently, which sounds better with typical tape measure setup. Eventually I will try Master Set on the long wall again, but mght as well see what this wall can yield, as it suits the lifestyle concerns better. 

I did use the Cowgirl song.

Maybe the soundstage depth parameter is a good reason to explore the potential spots further out into the dead zone, giving a few more inches of depth. But I took the first spot and I liked the depth. It just isn't artificially deep sounding as it was before when baffles were 6 feet into the room.

I started with no toe, I enjoyed it OK, but a little brighter than what I'm used to. But you're right the toe for Master Set seems to be different than regular setup when you can tweak the soundstage with the toe. Speakers' specs are usually measured headon, so that should be the flattest unless speaker designer says toe it out. The midrange midbass was seriously intense. Fun but takes some getting used to. The whole impression of the 1st Master Set was intense. A 1932 recording of Schnabel Beethoven Sonata was riveting, easy to ignore the terrible recording noise.

You said, "I've noticed that the speakers I've seen in the professional MS's are toed in quite a lot. I can't argue with the results."

Do you mean pointing directly at the listener, or toed in even more (crossing in front of listener?)
Thanks
Rich

[jhm731]

Rich- Mahalo for posting the floorplan of your listening room, it makes these discussions of Master Set speaker placement a lot easier to understand.

Steve- how about posting a floorplan of your listening room with your Master Set placement and equipment?

Hugh- what happen to the picture of your listening room?

Dan


My Current set-up: Duetta w/U-byte cable->Aberdeen Tact RCS 2.2XP->Aberdeen Tact S2150->Volent VL-2s. Other digital sources: Theta Jade and AppleTV via an upgrade Genesis Digital Lens.

[stvnharr]

Thanks Mucho Steven! I can tell you really love this stuff!

Here's a floorplan of my listening area. This old drawing pictures speakers against the 22' long wall, pointing into the kitchen echo chamber. I moved the speakers to the fireplace wall recently, which sounds better with typical tape measure setup. Eventually I will try Master Set on the long wall again, but mght as well see what this wall can yield, as it suits the lifestyle concerns better. 

I did use the Cowgirl song.

Maybe the soundstage depth parameter is a good reason to explore the potential spots further out into the dead zone, giving a few more inches of depth. But I took the first spot and I liked the depth. It just isn't artificially deep sounding as it was before when baffles were 6 feet into the room.

I started with no toe, I enjoyed it OK, but a little brighter than what I'm used to. But you're right the toe for Master Set seems to be different than regular setup when you can tweak the soundstage with the toe. Speakers' specs are usually measured headon, so that should be the flattest unless speaker designer says toe it out. The midrange midbass was seriously intense. Fun but takes some getting used to. The whole impression of the 1st Master Set was intense. A 1932 recording of Schnabel Beethoven Sonata was riveting, easy to ignore the terrible recording noise.

You said, "I've noticed that the speakers I've seen in the professional MS's are toed in quite a lot. I can't argue with the results."

Do you mean pointing directly at the listener, or toed in even more (crossing in front of listener?)
Thanks
Rich

Rich,
The floor plan drawing was good.  I tend to think you'll get better results with audio gear placed as in the drawing and not where the fireplace is located. But for now, just listen to how it all is.

One suggestion that could help you a lot: And that is to try and hear a professionally set up Master Set.  Your best bet would be at a Sumiko dealer somewhere within a day's drive, hopefully closer, to where you live.  Hopefully they will have a MS setup in the store.  It really helps to have some kind of reference, and you just have to hear a good Master Set done perfectly.  The sound is different from any other way of putting speakers in the room.

Toe In: My toe in is directly at the listener from the original setup with the speakers against the wall.  I sit in that same seat throughout the setup. The anchor speaker is directly at me. The other speaker is slightly different as it is a couple inches closer to the wall.  I think I can see the inner side of the speaker.  Toe in is not ever adjusted in the anchor speaker.  You can toe out the other speaker slightly, but not much.  This works best.
In conventional setups, people play with toe in a lot.  I know I did.  But in Master Set you don't do it.

The Dead Zone is pretty small.  I don't think a different spot in it will affect 3-D very much.  Although I have to admit that I have had this same thought, and dismissed it.  I also thought about moving the speakers slightly farther apart to spread things a little more, and then got sensible and realized that a few inches wasn't going to make any real difference.

Steve

[stvnharr]

Rich- Mahalo for posting the floorplan of your listening room, it makes these discussions of Master Set speaker placement a lot easier to understand.

Steve- how about posting a floorplan of your listening room with your Master Set placement and equipment?

Hugh- what happen to the picture of your listening room?

Dan


My Current set-up: Duetta w/U-byte cable->Aberdeen Tact RCS 2.2XP->Aberdeen Tact S2150->Volent VL-2s. Other digital sources: Theta Jade and AppleTV via an upgrade Genesis Digital Lens.

Dan,
In lieu of a drawing or pics at the moment, I'll give a simple description.
Room is 14' X 13' X 10' tall.  There is a large bay window along one of the 13' walls.  There is a fireplace sticking out into the room along one of the 14' walls.  Everything is along the clear 14' wall. Speakers are 7' apart about 3 1/2' out from sidewall to center of woofer.
It's a small room for sure, and in conventional set has terrible sound with lots of reflections to muddy things up.
With MS, great sound with no reflections.

Steve

PS. I'll try to get some pics eventually posted.