[jhm731]

Interesting tool:

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html

[stvnharr]

Interesting tool:

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html

This is about as far away from Master Set as it gets.
BTW, there are also internet calculators for speaker crossover networks.  Would you want a speaker designed with one?

[jhm731]

Interesting tool:

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html

This is about as far away from Master Set as it gets.
BTW, there are also internet calculators for speaker crossover networks.  Would you want a speaker designed with one?

The tool allows you to enter your room dimensions and quickly see how bass response changes by moving the speakers.

Did you try it with your room dimensions?

My in room measurements confirm the tool's results.

Many speaker designers use computer crossover design tools as a starting point, and then fine tune the design.

IMO, until you produce some measurements verifying that your Master Set has smoothed out/optimized bass response below 300Hz,
your results may just be a subjective reaction to a pleasant frequency response coloration. 

PS- I see you joined REG's forum. Did you look at his Harbeth M40 set-up?  It's about as far away from Master Set as it gets.

[stvnharr]

Interesting tool:

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html

This is about as far away from Master Set as it gets.
BTW, there are also internet calculators for speaker crossover networks.  Would you want a speaker designed with one?

The tool allows you to enter your room dimensions and quickly see how bass response changes by moving the speakers.

Did you try it with your room dimensions?

My in room measurements confirm the tool's results.

Many speaker designers use computer crossover design tools as a starting point, and then fine tune the design.

IMO, until you produce some measurements verifying that your Master Set has smoothed out/optimized bass response below 300Hz,
your results may just be a subjective reaction to a pleasant frequency response coloration. 

PS- I see you joined REG's forum. Did you look at his Harbeth M40 set-up?  It's about as far away from Master Set as it gets.

Ya, I joined REG's forum in case someone wanted to ask about Master Set.  Not much activity, which isn't surprising.
REG has been a big Harbeth supporter for a long time.  I used Harbeth's exlusively in the 80's and 90's and always liked them.
I've also read some of his articles and they are good.

I think you may have misunderstood my comments on MS and bass, or else I did not explain well enough. One is moving the one speaker within a small window of a few inches trying to find a point or two of smoothest bass. It's subjective as it is done by ear. One is not changing anything really, just finding to find a small point of improvement that can hopefully be matched in the other speaker.

You will likely have a long wait for any measurement data. The idea is to just do it all by ear and keep it simple.  This doesn't appeal to a lot of folks.

[stvnharr]

Attention Melbourne area Aksafiles:
I have tweaked and reset Hugh's Master Set, and I think it's quite a bit better than previous.  I think it's now much closer to the professional Master Sets that I have heard at RMAF.  There's likely still room for small improvements, but we were down to pretty small adjustments the other evening, and I think we are within the big millimeter for now!

[AKSA]

It's DAMN good, folks.   

Steve did a great job bringing US knowhow to Oz, and I salute his efforts!   

Laurie, Darren, Theo, Russ, you guys gotta hear this!   

Marty has given it the thumbs up, loves it, but is limited by his own domestic setting, all too often a factor.

I'll have Todd Johnson from Canada here in a few days, too.

Cheers,

Hugh

[stvnharr]

Now that things have somewhat died down here, time for some catch up.

DIY Master Set is limited and difficult. This is not Professional Master Set, as done by those folks certified from Sumiko and the Sumiko seminars.  As such, DIY Master Set is muchly limited.  A visit to a store or person with a professional MS set is highly valuable, and I cannot emphasize this enough.

I've mentioned numerous tips, etc. during the course of this thread, but they are all scattered out.  Based on my experiences in the past week, I can do a quick summary of little tips.
If you have difficulty finding a bass smoothing point, just set the anchor speaker somewhere is the "decoupled-isolated" zone.  Matching with the second speaker will be difficult as there is now no bass smoothing point to find.  But, you can get something of a match by trying to find the point where the sound stays stable in the middle when you move around the room.  Or you can just sit off to the right, maybe even in line with the right speaker and try to set the second speaker so the voice in the BoaRH song is centered.  Just remember that when you move in the room and the voice moves with you, you DON'T have matched speakers.  A good point to start on this is to bring the second speaker out even with the anchor speaker, as in a conventional set, listen, look at the room, and move in small increments one way for an inch or two and listen for changes.  If nothing works then move speaker in opposite direction from the beginning point.  IF your room is fairly symettrical, you should find something within that range.  You can fine adjust a "matching point" here with some very small toe adjustments or lateral movements, 1 or 2 mm only at a time.  BE patient and diligent.

Now on to some questions and things that came up recently that I may/may not have answered well.
Toe in and lateral movements: I previously did not do them in the matching speaker set, but now I do, especially toe adjustments.
Rake angle: This is the MS term for tipping up the front of the speaker.  This will spread the distribution of sound out more evenly into the room and lessen any beaming effect that is stronger at the on-axis intersection point.  This is a final adjustment after everything else is done.  Keep it to no more than 5 degrees up, less is a little better.  It really can only be done if you have adjustable spikes under the speaker or stand.

Some terms: Evenness of frequency distribution came up.  This was new to me. I had considered this more of a function of the speaker off axis response curves more than anything.  BUT, if you get a real good Master Set with a good stable stereo image, there certainly is an evenness of frequency distribution.  It's kind of a result of the set.
Distance of listener to speaker as a determining factor: This is a primary consideration in conventional setups.  However, since there are two speakers and two ears, there is never equidistant measurement here.  The best that can be done is two equal pairs, and that exists at only one single point.  Any slight movement from that point, and there are 4 different distances from listener to speakers.  However, in general, if you just sit exactly in the middle of the two speakers the stereo image does center up pretty well, but off this axis the sound moves when you move.
With MS you match the two speakers to each other in the room and the distance of listener to the speaker becomes inconsequential. But only when they are matched, otherwise it is like everyone knows, a big factor.

Some other things: The question came up about having the speakers farther out into the room and trying to match them ala MS.  I experimented with this last week, and I couldn't do it.  I'll just leave it at that as otherwise I just go into the MS mumbo-jumbo.
Sidewall reflection: MS is a close to the rear wall with extreme toe in set. Simple geometry will tell you about sidewall reflection points in the room.  Setting up along the long wall of the room and well away from the side wall(s) of the room tends to keep sidewall reflections to a minimum.  Sure they still may be there. But the sound may arrive too late to be of much consequence.
Small movements: I've written lots on keeping it small. Last week all my final adjustments were of the 1mm kind. Little movement can make big differences, but not all movements make changes. This all requires a lot of patience.  Other setup methods do not emphasize these smallish movements.

Lastly, I have found Master Set to be the best musical playback sound that I have experienced.  This is what has driven me to learn, as best I can, how to do it. If you think MS is just all mumbo jumbo nonsense, well, nothing says you have to pursue it, even as an adventure. It does only require just your time and interest, and patience. Other than that it's all free, but you do have to have all three.

[netaron]

Hello Steve,

Your entire presentation of MS makes complete sense to me; besides, measurement equipment and the like always have their own drawbacks and all try to work in tandem to satisfy your ears. So why not let the ear be the judge in the first place.

Regardless, I have read more than I can absorb, and it's possible this may have been asked, but I will give it a shot. I did not notice any mention of running a mono signal, perhaps the preamp (if available) can be switched to mono, will this help?

Also, I have an older Stereo Review CD that has bass tones from I think 200hz to 15hz with the announcer actually announcing the different increments every 10 or 20 hz, can this be used?

One last question; did you and Hugh change listening positions up and down in addition to the obvious side to side movement of your listening position?

Thank you,

Haron

[gsm18439]

Steve

I have followed this thread closely. One thing that you have not mentioned in a lot of detail is the distance between speakers. How do you select the optimum spread? (Or is there an optimum spread?) How do you know when the speakers are too widely spaced or not far enough apart?

Thanks

Gary

[stvnharr]

Hello Steve,

Your entire presentation of MS makes complete sense to me; besides, measurement equipment and the like always have their own drawbacks and all try to work in tandem to satisfy your ears. So why not let the ear be the judge in the first place.

Regardless, I have read more than I can absorb, and it's possible this may have been asked, but I will give it a shot. I did not notice any mention of running a mono signal, perhaps the preamp (if available) can be switched to mono, will this help?

Also, I have an older Stereo Review CD that has bass tones from I think 200hz to 15hz with the announcer actually announcing the different increments every 10 or 20 hz, can this be used?

One last question; did you and Hugh change listening positions up and down in addition to the obvious side to side movement of your listening position?

Thank you,

Haron

Haron,
The bass line on BoaRH is sufficient for doing what needs doing with MS. While there are not that many bass notes, per se, there is a variety in how they come out to where you can get a small amount of smoothing in most cases if you are persistent.

Well, Hugh and I did not really do any up and down changes in positioning, per se.  However, Hugh is a fair bit taller than me, so we listened at different heights.  In fact, after doing the set, I did happen to notice that the sound while one stood up was much like that while being seated.
I think Hugh's set could be a bit better if we could find a way to tip up the speaker. The tweeter level of the speaker is a bit low, as the speaker is only 36 inches tall. But there's really no way to accomplish this at the moment.

Steve

[stvnharr]

Steve

I have followed this thread closely. One thing that you have not mentioned in a lot of detail is the distance between speakers. How do you select the optimum spread? (Or is there an optimum spread?) How do you know when the speakers are too widely spaced or not far enough apart?

Thanks

Gary

Gary,
When you start, the idea is to spread the speakers as far apart as reasonable in the room, and have a very solid mono center image, like adjusting the lenses of binoculars to your head. The farther apart you can have the speakers and still keep the voice centered will give the widest stereo image.  It's mostly determined by the room dimensions.  Keep in mind that it's critical to keep the speakers well away from the sidewalls.
You just adjust and adapt the spacing as the room allows.

Steve

[gsm18439]

Steve

Thanks. Your posts have been most helpful. FYI. . . My room is 14.5'x24'. Given the length of the long wall, it is easy to keep them far apart (approx 12') and 6' away from the side walls.

Gary

[stvnharr]

Steve

Thanks. Your posts have been most helpful. FYI. . . My room is 14.5'x24'. Given the length of the long wall, it is easy to keep them far apart (approx 12') and 6' away from the side walls.

Gary

Gary,
That's a nicely dimensioned room. You should be able to set up in a 12 foot triangle. Should be fabulous.

Steve

[Tliner]

Hi Steve,

I really appreciate your MS efforts. Since I have applied the MS approach of speaker alignment the sound from my VSonics is about as good as it gets in my room. If the room was cleared of the unusually large number of furniture pieces the bass would be much more dynamic. But the bass absorbing properties of the room room is more than overcome by the woofer. Recently, Hugh and I tested my VSonics alongside his in his room and there was nothing much between them if anything at all. The bass produced by both pairs of speakers was identical, much more than in my room.

When designing the VSonics the height of the tweeter was set after measuring the height of the ears from the floor of the average listener between 5' to 6' (1.5 meters to 1.85 meters tall) seated in/on the average couch etc while still retaining the vital internal dimensions. In the case of my wife who is a shorty, the tweeters fire over her head unless she sits on a stack of phone books. And I ain't gonna chop a few inches off the speakers to suit her! The VSonics can be raised by adding an additional plynth/s or standing them on spikes if desired. Now dealing with one who is constantly living in the rarefied atmosphere of great altitude it is suggested that the VSonics could be placed on a Greek column. There is usually a solution to suit every situation. It's all in the fine tuning to suit a particular situation!

Laurie

[gerado]

ahhh, but when it comes to Greek columns , Doric, Ionic or Corinthian?
 

[AKSA]

Theo,

I was thinking Jeffersonian?      See below for features   

Palladian design e.g. central core, symmetrical wings
Main floor slightly elevated above ground level
Red brick construction
White painted columns and trim
Octagons and octagonal forms
Chinese railings
Columns using Greek orders e.g. Tuscan, Doric, Ionic, Corinthian
Classical moldings


Hugh

[gerado]

Hugh,

real nice .....     if you are planning living all alone that is

[Tliner]

Don't like the way this thread is going. It will be too hard if not impossible for software to calculate all the possibilities of the sonic properties of Greek columns. And I don't like the idea of tuning a column by hand, chipping a bit off here and there to tune the things to the room. Moving them around with speakers on top to get the MS positioning correct, nah! Must be a better idea than using Greek columns.

Laurie. 

[netaron]

Steve,

Thank you for your prompt reply, this has been fun experimenting, hope to hit the sweet spot one of these days as I have so much to learn.

[AKSA]

Laurie, Theo,

We may need to move away from Greek columns.

Geek columns, anyone?   

Hugh