[AKSA]

Laurie, Theo,

I can see the design compromises here.  Hmmm.  We may need to move away from Greek columns.

Geek columns, anyone?   

Hugh

[gerado]

Maybe a couple of these will help with easy adjustment as well

but its probably overshooting the mark


http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/04/trojan_xbox1.jpg

[Tliner]

ooh,
I recon you could hide a woofer or two in one of those, no worries!

[gerado]

Im stopping now
this thread is in danger of derailing to silliness 

[stvnharr]

Hi Steve,

I really appreciate your MS efforts. Since I have applied the MS approach of speaker alignment the sound from my VSonics is about as good as it gets in my room. If the room was cleared of the unusually large number of furniture pieces the bass would be much more dynamic. But the bass absorbing properties of the room room is more than overcome by the woofer. Recently, Hugh and I tested my VSonics alongside his in his room and there was nothing much between them if anything at all. The bass produced by both pairs of speakers was identical, much more than in my room.

When designing the VSonics the height of the tweeter was set after measuring the height of the ears from the floor of the average listener between 5' to 6' (1.5 meters to 1.85 meters tall) seated in/on the average couch etc while still retaining the vital internal dimensions. In the case of my wife who is a shorty, the tweeters fire over her head unless she sits on a stack of phone books. And I ain't gonna chop a few inches off the speakers to suit her! The VSonics can be raised by adding an additional plynth/s or standing them on spikes if desired. Now dealing with one who is constantly living in the rarefied atmosphere of great altitude it is suggested that the VSonics could be placed on a Greek column. There is usually a solution to suit every situation. It's all in the fine tuning to suit a particular situation!

Laurie

Laurie,
You should be quite surprised and pleased when you next visit Hugh.  It's quite a bit better than before.  You should notice the bass improvement immediately, and then there is everything else too.
I'll stay away from the Greek columns!!!!!!

Steve

[Tliner]

Steve,

I hope to hear the speaker placement at Hugh's very soon. I'm really looking forward to the experience.

Yesterday I caught the MS bug again and had a go at the speaker placement. The bass is much better than before, cleaner overall and the slam of a kick drum really punches. It's the double bass that really shines now. Particularly the natural resonance sound of the instrument is more apparent along with note decay which hangs on seemingly for ever 'till damped by the muso. With pipe organ notes under about 80hz (woofer off) the sound (resonance??) of the pipe apart from the actual note can be heard as well as the note. I would say that the listener is now receiving the notes without (or reduced) much timing delay which used not to be the case. Room reflections appear to be less of an influencing factor, hence a cleaner and more detailed sound overall. Yesterday evening with the window drapes closed the sound changed being even more detailed and precise. It goes to show just how much reflections (from  3 glass windows down one side wall and two more or less behind the speakers) influence the imaging. I suppose all the aligning took less than an hour.

For all you instrument reliant buffs a friend will be coming over in a few weeks with his latest and greatest room analysis gear to see what really goes on whith the Master Set alignment process. I'll report the findings.

Laurie

[netaron]

Laurie,

I am very much looking forward to your friends findings, I find this whole thing to be very interesting. I played around with my speakers and tried to follow some of the instructions, but did not go about it as Steve has prescribed. Regardless, I ended up with a very good compromise, but saving the Master Set for when I have the time and of course able to live with speakers almost in the middle of the living room.

Haron

[stvnharr]

Laurie,

I am very much looking forward to your friends findings, I find this whole thing to be very interesting. I played around with my speakers and tried to follow some of the instructions, but did not go about it as Steve has prescribed. Regardless, I ended up with a very good compromise, but saving the Master Set for when I have the time and of course able to live with speakers almost in the middle of the living room.

Haron

You really have to go about it step by step as described.  I have described a couple of shortcuts that can be done during the process, but I think it best to go through things the long way when you first attempt to do MS.  It's all a learning process as you go about doing it.

[stvnharr]

Steve,

I hope to hear the speaker placement at Hugh's very soon. I'm really looking forward to the experience.

Yesterday I caught the MS bug again and had a go at the speaker placement. The bass is much better than before, cleaner overall and the slam of a kick drum really punches. It's the double bass that really shines now. Particularly the natural resonance sound of the instrument is more apparent along with note decay which hangs on seemingly for ever 'till damped by the muso. With pipe organ notes under about 80hz (woofer off) the sound (resonance??) of the pipe apart from the actual note can be heard as well as the note. I would say that the listener is now receiving the notes without (or reduced) much timing delay which used not to be the case. Room reflections appear to be less of an influencing factor, hence a cleaner and more detailed sound overall. Yesterday evening with the window drapes closed the sound changed being even more detailed and precise. It goes to show just how much reflections (from  3 glass windows down one side wall and two more or less behind the speakers) influence the imaging. I suppose all the aligning took less than an hour.

For all you instrument reliant buffs a friend will be coming over in a few weeks with his latest and greatest room analysis gear to see what really goes on whith the Master Set alignment process. I'll report the findings.

Laurie

Laurie,
Are you getting an even sound when you move around your room?  When you have a matched setting, you have real eveness of sound in the room.
Glass windows like drapes for music!!!
One thing that I noticed when I heard MS for the very first time at RMAF 2007 was the very clean low bass from the VA Mozart speakers.  These just have a pair of 5 inch poly drivers for bass.  The bass was nearly as good as that from the VA Mahlers that have a pair of Eton 11 inch woofers for bass.  There was also a REL subwoofer in the room.  But the bass never really changed when the sub would get turned off.  Everyone always wanted to compare bass with the sub on and off, as no one thought the 5 inch drivers could make such good low bass.
Anyway, with a MS the speakers are quite close in to rear wall, and that always does help the bass.

Steve

[Tliner]

Steve,

Yes, the sound has about the same intensity anywhere in the room now, unless one is very close to the speakers, not the usual listening position. I played an old mono vinyl to check for even sound.
I have experienced over the years the effects of hard reflective and soft damped surfaces particularly side and end walls have on reproduced music. But I have found that when the speakers are aligned using MS any influence on the sound appears to become more apparent. And when an anomaly is identified it can in most cases be dealt with by one means or another. ie:- covering a reflective surface or removing some covering etc. I have also found that by trying to balance the reflective properties (left and right sides of a room) will assist in make the MS process easier. After all the MS speaker alignment process is a balancing act in a room full of many variables.

I have found that the bass never really changes with the woofer off, the intensity just diminishes. But having said that, in my situation with all the stuff in the room the bass is absorbed and the woofer just makes more bass. However, a considering the laws of physics a 12" driver will push more air than a 8" driver. In my case the woofer is tuned as a bass extender to the VSonics to round out the bottom end sound. A worked over 400W @ 8 ohms woofer amps provides the variable grunt. So I suppose that I can overcome limited bass dynamics on some CD's as well as a dead room.

As a result of the MS process the speakers are as close to the wall as possible, nearly hard against a pair of built in 35 YO KEF transmissionlines which are nearly the size of a small fridge.

Laurie

[jhm731]

here's another way:


http://www.higherfi.com/speaker_position.htm

[andyr]

Anyway, with a MS the speakers are quite close to the front wall ...

Steve

Aah, thanks for telling us that, Steve.     I had surmised that was the case from seeing Hugh's MS setup but no previous MS post from anyone had actually come out and said that!   

In which case, MS is not for dipoles - which like quite a lot of distance from the front wall, because of the back-wave reflection.  This is certainly the case for Maggies and electrostats ... and I would think for cone-based dipoles like Orions/NaOs also.

Regards,

Andy

[stvnharr]

here's another way:


http://www.higherfi.com/speaker_position.htm

Like a lot of ways of putting speakers in a room, this one will get you a "sweet spot" of sound, emphasis on spot.  Just be sure to sit perfectly still, as the sound is not evenly distributed in the room.

[jhm731]

here's another way:


http://www.higherfi.com/speaker_position.htm

Like a lot of ways of putting speakers in a room, this one will get you a "sweet spot" of sound, emphasis on spot.  Just be sure to sit perfectly still, as the sound is not evenly distributed in the room.

It's amazing how you can comment on methods you haven't tried.

The "sweet spot" size will depend on the speakers being used. Better off axis response, the larger the sweet spot.

[stvnharr]

here's another way:


http://www.higherfi.com/speaker_position.htm

Like a lot of ways of putting speakers in a room, this one will get you a "sweet spot" of sound, emphasis on spot.  Just be sure to sit perfectly still, as the sound is not evenly distributed in the room.

It's amazing how you can comment on methods you haven't tried.

The "sweet spot" size will depend on the speakers being used. Better off axis response, the larger the sweet spot.

Then perhaps you should restrict your comments to Master Set, as that is the topic of this thread.

[stvnharr]

Anyway, with a MS the speakers are quite close to the front wall ...

Steve

Aah, thanks for telling us that, Steve.     I had surmised that was the case from seeing Hugh's MS setup but no previous MS post from anyone had actually come out and said that!   

In which case, MS is not for dipoles - which like quite a lot of distance from the front wall, because of the back-wave reflection.  This is certainly the case for Maggies and electrostats ... and I would think for cone-based dipoles like Orions/NaOs also.

Regards,

Andy

Just surmising, but I think MS would work fairly well with and Orion.  Planars and electrostats are a different matter entirely.  Given that most Master Sets are done by a few Sumiko dealers, and Sumiko doesn't carry anything other than standard box speakers............................... ..

The MS steps are easily written, but difficult to carry out.  This is certainly proved so in my own experiences.  I just try to get as close as I can.  Having heard a professional MS, MS gives the most realistic electronic playback 2 channel experience I have heard.

Steve

[kyrill]

i read this thread like almost all threads here under Aspen with interest My OB speakers are however big and very heavy on top of a not so glide-able carpet over a marble floor.
to do the master alignment sounds cumber some

But ( does coincidence really exists? I met this thread about Teflon feet: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69497.0



Except that Herbies applications do work, they wil make adjusting the speakers sooo much easier.

I still must do it, but now i have hope of accomplishment

[AKSA]

Kyrill,

VERY good idea!! 

The ideal solution is to be able to move the speaker around AS YOU ARE SEATED, LISTENING.  Audio memory is so transitory that immediate reinforcement is needed here;  pulling a few strings would give you that.

It should not take too much imagination to rig up three pulleys and four strings to attach to the speaker pucks, and if they are teflon coated, then they will be almost as easy to move around on carpet as they are on timber, teflon is so slippery.

If the carpet is too deep, then place the speaker on a platform of cardboard sheet, and move it around with minimal friction.

The only tricky bit is the pulleys;  but if you attach them to heavy furniture legs it should be OK.

Cheers,

Hugh

[ginger]

Some light reading on the topic of speaker placement, rooms etc.
http://www.audioperfectionist.com/PDF%20files/journal2rh.pdf
The author is mainly talking about HTX Systems but some valuable hints.
Cheers,
Ian

[Listens2tubes]

Hi, I've been reading and planning to try this for a short while now. My setup makes moving speakers a bit tedious as the amps are in the basement and the speaker cables come up through the floor. But with some temporary re-arranging I'd spend an afternoon or month for better sound anytime. Just wondering if I'll be able to hear Master Set speakers at RMAF this October? If so I'll get lots of pix and ask too many questions aa If anyone else is going to be there we could pool resources and maybe get even more insite.