[rydenfan]

The first place I would start with with a tube pre-amp. You have very revealing amp and speakers and for my personal tastes I would need a touch of warmth that tubes or a truly exceptional SS pre can add.

[95Dyna]

Kosta,

I had the same problem with my 14B SST and B&W 802N. The trebel was shocking. It was very harsh. Changing the power cord on my CDP made a significant difference. I believe the CDP was polluting the power going into the other components. The power cable filtered some of this out. Once I did this the system went from unbearable to listenable.

I then bought a PS Audio Power Plant Premier (PPP). The system went from listenable to excellent. All my equipment is plugged into it, including the Bryston. I know many conditioners cannot provide the current required to the Bryston but the PPP can. I have done some thorough testing to prove this to myself.

I reviewed a Classe amp with the B&W (either in this forum or the B&W forum). Please have a look at that for a comparision between Classe and Bryston.

Good luck.

Hi Amdan,

I don't want to hijack the thread but am interested in your PS Audio PPP experience and how you tested to determine it was providing all the current the 14B needed including peak demand requirements.  If you like you can PM me at misterbill357@msn.com so we don't take the thread off track.

Thanks,

Bill

[Sasha]

I am not sure what your definition of harshness is, but I can describe my experience.
It took me some time and money to figure out that I cannot stand B&W speakers in general, due to cone breakup frequencies emanating from those infamous midrange drivers, this is very apparent with female voices for example.
Having a relatively neutral amp like Bryston driving them does not help much, there is no way to avoid what is fundamental design flaw IMO (and opinion of many others).  Unfortunately the yellow Kevlar mid has become trade mark for B&W and it is very unlikely they will change it, B&W came up with a nice marketing term that describes this and B&W’s easily recognized sound signature: “controlled breakup”.
If you want to get rid of it, sell B&W and get well designed and built speakers.

[werd]

I am not sure what your definition of harshness is, but I can describe my experience.
It took me some time and money to figure out that I cannot stand B&W speakers in general, due to cone breakup frequencies emanating from those infamous midrange drivers, this is very apparent with female voices for example.
Having a relatively neutral amp like Bryston driving them does not help much, there is no way to avoid what is fundamental design flaw IMO (and opinion of many others).  Unfortunately the yellow Kevlar mid has become trade mark for B&W and it is very unlikely they will change it, B&W came up with a nice marketing term that describes this and B&W’s easily recognized sound signature: “controlled breakup”.
If you want to get rid of it, sell B&W and get well designed and built speakers.

they are actually very rigid and are designed specifically to eliminate speaker break-up. What u r hearing might be the kevlar style itself and u dont like it. New Generation Bryston are goin to clean up with B&W, especially with sst/2 series amps. I would really like to hear my set-up as is with an 800 series speaker.

[Philistine]

I am not sure what your definition of harshness is, but I can describe my experience.
It took me some time and money to figure out that I cannot stand B&W speakers in general, due to cone breakup frequencies emanating from those infamous midrange drivers, this is very apparent with female voices for example.
Having a relatively neutral amp like Bryston driving them does not help much, there is no way to avoid what is fundamental design flaw IMO (and opinion of many others).  Unfortunately the yellow Kevlar mid has become trade mark for B&W and it is very unlikely they will change it, B&W came up with a nice marketing term that describes this and B&W’s easily recognized sound signature: “controlled breakup”.
If you want to get rid of it, sell B&W and get well designed and built speakers.

I agree that B&W speakers are capable of making great music but they do have a distinctive 'house' sound.  The OP is happy with them and I believe he can get the performance he's looking for without the expense of replacing them. 

they are actually very rigid and are designed specifically to eliminate speaker break-up. What u r hearing might be the kevlar style itself and u dont like it. New Generation Bryston are goin to clean up with B&W, especially with sst/2 series amps. I would really like to hear my set-up as is with an 800 series speaker.

[Sasha]

There is no such driver with cone that exhibits no break-up, and B&W Kevlar midrange drivers are ringing like bells.
There is a very valid reason why PMC, ATC and majority of professional monitoring companies use heavily treated and damped textile/paper materials in midrange drivers for example.
Attempts to achieve near ideal piston behavior with materials such are Kevlar or carbon fibers for example come at heavy price, such drivers unquestionably ring, what can be controlled to some point with complex cross-overs what again comes at heavy price.
The end result is compromised performance, it is not a question of “style” but design, engineering and marketing.

[Philistine]

There is no such driver with cone that exhibits no break-up, and B&W Kevlar midrange drivers are ringing like bells.
There is a very valid reason why PMC, ATC and majority of professional monitoring companies use heavily treated and damped textile/paper materials in midrange drivers for example.
Attempts to achieve near ideal piston behavior with materials such are Kevlar or carbon fibers for example come at heavy price, such drivers unquestionably ring, what can be controlled to some point with complex cross-overs what again comes at heavy price.
The end result is compromised performance, it is not a question of “style” but design, engineering and marketing.

Kosta is looking for advice on how to get his Bryston amp singing how he likes with his B&W speakers, it's no benefit or help to him to come on his thread telling him he's made the wrong choice.  If you want to express your personal views on B&W speakers then it's better to open a new thread to debate this.  In the meantime many of us believe he can get great performance from his Bryston/B&W combination, and that's what we're trying to help him with and what this thread is about.

[Sasha]

There is no such driver with cone that exhibits no break-up, and B&W Kevlar midrange drivers are ringing like bells.
There is a very valid reason why PMC, ATC and majority of professional monitoring companies use heavily treated and damped textile/paper materials in midrange drivers for example.
Attempts to achieve near ideal piston behavior with materials such are Kevlar or carbon fibers for example come at heavy price, such drivers unquestionably ring, what can be controlled to some point with complex cross-overs what again comes at heavy price.
The end result is compromised performance, it is not a question of “style” but design, engineering and marketing.

Kosta is looking for advice on how to get his Bryston amp singing how he likes with his B&W speakers, it's no benefit or help to him to come on his thread telling him he's made the wrong choice.  If you want to express your personal views on B&W speakers then it's better to open a new thread to debate this.  In the meantime many of us believe he can get great performance from his Bryston/B&W combination, and that's what we're trying to help him with and what this thread is about.

I believe I help Kosta with my view of and my experience with B&W as much as anyone else, if not more, if in the end he comes to the same realization as I did, and saves a lot of money on his journey towards the sound he is satisfied with.
I owned B&W, I heard many of their models, with Bryson and other amplification.
You may like the sound of B&W and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as much as I am, and there is no reason for dismissing my views and my experience.

[werd]

There is no such driver with cone that exhibits no break-up, and B&W Kevlar midrange drivers are ringing like bells.
There is a very valid reason why PMC, ATC and majority of professional monitoring companies use heavily treated and damped textile/paper materials in midrange drivers for example.
Attempts to achieve near ideal piston behavior with materials such are Kevlar or carbon fibers for example come at heavy price, such drivers unquestionably ring, what can be controlled to some point with complex cross-overs what again comes at heavy price.
The end result is compromised performance, it is not a question of “style” but design, engineering and marketing.

The kevlar material is the most rigid material in cone driver u can get. Speaker break-up is a form of distortion and doesnt exibit a "ringing" sound. Again if u dont like the sound of kevlar thats cool, but B&W are notoriusily low on distortion. Also a very acquired taste.

Sasha post your gear, I am curious

[SF]

Well Kosta .... now that you have lived with the 14BSST and BP26 a bit longer, how is the sound? And what have you decided about the speaker cable?

[Sasha]

There is no such driver with cone that exhibits no break-up, and B&W Kevlar midrange drivers are ringing like bells.
There is a very valid reason why PMC, ATC and majority of professional monitoring companies use heavily treated and damped textile/paper materials in midrange drivers for example.
Attempts to achieve near ideal piston behavior with materials such are Kevlar or carbon fibers for example come at heavy price, such drivers unquestionably ring, what can be controlled to some point with complex cross-overs what again comes at heavy price.
The end result is compromised performance, it is not a question of “style” but design, engineering and marketing.

The kevlar material is the most rigid material in cone driver u can get. Speaker break-up is a form of distortion and doesnt exibit a "ringing" sound. Again if u dont like the sound of kevlar thats cool, but B&W are notoriusily low on distortion. Also a very acquired taste.

Sasha post your gear, I am curious

Gear is in transition now, last time the system was complete, it consisted of:
PMC IB2s – sold, will build speakers, parts on their way.
Bryston 7B SST
Bryston BP 26
Wadia 581i SE – sold, replaced with BDA-1 and PC transport
PC transport, Zalman fanless case with heat pipes and radiators, completely tuned up HW and SW-wise for single purpose of being digital source (e.g. I do not even do ripping on it but on a different system), Lynx sound card
For standard optical transport I am yet to determine what I will use
EquiTech balanced power conditioner
Interconnects VDH/Neutrik balanced whenever possible, otherwise AZ Matrix II and Silver Reference
AZ Satori Speaker cable – sold, replacement TBD
Bunch of DVD and universal players of various quality

P.S. I hear ringing in every B&W speaker, I get a headache within 15 minutes of listening to female singers on B&W.
Same is true for literally every speaker I heard that uses carbon fiber in midrange cones.
To higher or lesser extent I hear metallic kind of ringing on every speaker I heard that uses some sort of metal material in midrange cones, especially aluminum ones, cannot  miss it.
The only speakers of dynamic type I heard that are capable or reproducing uncolored midrange always use some sort of natural dampened materials, examples being PMC, ATC, Rockport to name a few.

[Philistine]

Sasha, this changes the question you had.
Originally you had issues with a 4BSST and 803D's, the 4BSST was replaced by a 14BSST and now the 803's are gone and a 7BSST is in the mix
You might want to restate your objective/question ?  Just a suggestion.

I've heard metal based drivers and currently own speakers with metal drivers, it is not the material but how the drivers are implemented in the total package. 

[Sasha]

Sasha, this changes the question you had.
Originally you had issues with a 4BSST and 803D's, the 4BSST was replaced by a 14BSST and now the 803's are gone and a 7BSST is in the mix
You might want to restate your objective/question ?  Just a suggestion.

I've heard metal based drivers and currently own speakers with metal drivers, it is not the material but how the drivers are implemented in the total package. 

There is some confusion, questions on Bryston and B&W did not come from me, it is Kosta asking.

[werd]

Sasha, this changes the question you had.
Originally you had issues with a 4BSST and 803D's, the 4BSST was replaced by a 14BSST and now the 803's are gone and a 7BSST is in the mix
You might want to restate your objective/question ?  Just a suggestion.

I've heard metal based drivers and currently own speakers with metal drivers, it is not the material but how the drivers are implemented in the total package. 

philistine i think u r confused a bit here. Sasha just jumped in and hasnt posted any remarks involving the brystons per se.

[Moon Doggy]

I love BRYSTON and want to love it more.  BUT  I love B&W 803D's too.  The combination is not bad but needs a tweak.

Here is what I have.

BP25p

BCD-1

4B SST  (will be upgrading to 14B SST this week)

B&W 803D's

14 gauge bi wire with 25 ft runs.


The sound is quite good of-course but I have heard better with the 803D's.  The speakers are rated at 500 RMS.  The sound I get tends to come out a bit to bright at the mids and tweets.  Bass could be a little deeper too.

I would love some input as to what to do.  I will consider upgrading to a BP26 if that would help.  Like I mentioned the 14B SST is coming soon but not sure about the improvements this could make over the 4b sst.

Thanks to all.


Kosta

Bryston amps are extremely clear and resolving. Problem is that B&W speaker's mids(esp. the FST driver) as well as the diamond tweeter have great clarity and resolution themselves. Overall this can lead to a harshness. It is certainly a case of too much of a good thing! Suggestions to soften up the sound and make it more laid back (besides a costly switch to Moon or Classe amps!):
1. Audioquest Q-Feet under your amps and CD player.
2. Room treatments really reduced harshness in my listening room-major improvement
3. a Torus PIU

Good Luck.
 Regards, James

[werd]

There is no such driver with cone that exhibits no break-up, and B&W Kevlar midrange drivers are ringing like bells.
There is a very valid reason why PMC, ATC and majority of professional monitoring companies use heavily treated and damped textile/paper materials in midrange drivers for example.
Attempts to achieve near ideal piston behavior with materials such are Kevlar or carbon fibers for example come at heavy price, such drivers unquestionably ring, what can be controlled to some point with complex cross-overs what again comes at heavy price.
The end result is compromised performance, it is not a question of “style” but design, engineering and marketing.

The kevlar material is the most rigid material in cone driver u can get. Speaker break-up is a form of distortion and doesnt exibit a "ringing" sound. Again if u dont like the sound of kevlar thats cool, but B&W are notoriusily low on distortion. Also a very acquired taste.

Sasha post your gear, I am curious

Gear is in transition now, last time the system was complete, it consisted of:
PMC IB2s – sold, will build speakers, parts on their way.
Bryston 7B SST
Bryston BP 26
Wadia 581i SE – sold, replaced with BDA-1 and PC transport
PC transport, Zalman fanless case with heat pipes and radiators, completely tuned up HW and SW-wise for single purpose of being digital source (e.g. I do not even do ripping on it but on a different system), Lynx sound card
For standard optical transport I am yet to determine what I will use
EquiTech balanced power conditioner
Interconnects VDH/Neutrik balanced whenever possible, otherwise AZ Matrix II and Silver Reference
AZ Satori Speaker cable – sold, replacement TBD
Bunch of DVD and universal players of various quality

P.S. I hear ringing in every B&W speaker, I get a headache within 15 minutes of listening to female singers on B&W.
Same is true for literally every speaker I heard that uses carbon fiber in midrange cones.
To higher or lesser extent I hear metallic kind of ringing on every speaker I heard that uses some sort of metal material in midrange cones, especially aluminum ones, cannot  miss it.
The only speakers of dynamic type I heard that are capable or reproducing uncolored midrange always use some sort of natural dampened materials, examples being PMC, ATC, Rockport to name a few.

Sasha, what did u think of the Satori speaker cable?                               

[Sasha]

There is no such driver with cone that exhibits no break-up, and B&W Kevlar midrange drivers are ringing like bells.
There is a very valid reason why PMC, ATC and majority of professional monitoring companies use heavily treated and damped textile/paper materials in midrange drivers for example.
Attempts to achieve near ideal piston behavior with materials such are Kevlar or carbon fibers for example come at heavy price, such drivers unquestionably ring, what can be controlled to some point with complex cross-overs what again comes at heavy price.
The end result is compromised performance, it is not a question of “style” but design, engineering and marketing.

The kevlar material is the most rigid material in cone driver u can get. Speaker break-up is a form of distortion and doesnt exibit a "ringing" sound. Again if u dont like the sound of kevlar thats cool, but B&W are notoriusily low on distortion. Also a very acquired taste.

Sasha post your gear, I am curious

Gear is in transition now, last time the system was complete, it consisted of:
PMC IB2s – sold, will build speakers, parts on their way.
Bryston 7B SST
Bryston BP 26
Wadia 581i SE – sold, replaced with BDA-1 and PC transport
PC transport, Zalman fanless case with heat pipes and radiators, completely tuned up HW and SW-wise for single purpose of being digital source (e.g. I do not even do ripping on it but on a different system), Lynx sound card
For standard optical transport I am yet to determine what I will use
EquiTech balanced power conditioner
Interconnects VDH/Neutrik balanced whenever possible, otherwise AZ Matrix II and Silver Reference
AZ Satori Speaker cable – sold, replacement TBD
Bunch of DVD and universal players of various quality

P.S. I hear ringing in every B&W speaker, I get a headache within 15 minutes of listening to female singers on B&W.
Same is true for literally every speaker I heard that uses carbon fiber in midrange cones.
To higher or lesser extent I hear metallic kind of ringing on every speaker I heard that uses some sort of metal material in midrange cones, especially aluminum ones, cannot  miss it.
The only speakers of dynamic type I heard that are capable or reproducing uncolored midrange always use some sort of natural dampened materials, examples being PMC, ATC, Rockport to name a few.

Sasha, what did u think of the Satori speaker cable?                               

Satori is nice when used with appropriate amp and speakers and you are romantic type of guy , not so nice when used with neutral components and your objective is the truth.
It is kind of dark with deep soundstage, somewhat colored.
I think you can do better for that kind of $ when seeking neutrality.
Kind of a sound you hear from let’s say McCormack DNA-250 in comparison to Bryston if you had a chance to hear presentation of both.

[werd]

There is no such driver with cone that exhibits no break-up, and B&W Kevlar midrange drivers are ringing like bells.
There is a very valid reason why PMC, ATC and majority of professional monitoring companies use heavily treated and damped textile/paper materials in midrange drivers for example.
Attempts to achieve near ideal piston behavior with materials such are Kevlar or carbon fibers for example come at heavy price, such drivers unquestionably ring, what can be controlled to some point with complex cross-overs what again comes at heavy price.
The end result is compromised performance, it is not a question of “style” but design, engineering and marketing.

The kevlar material is the most rigid material in cone driver u can get. Speaker break-up is a form of distortion and doesnt exibit a "ringing" sound. Again if u dont like the sound of kevlar thats cool, but B&W are notoriusily low on distortion. Also a very acquired taste.

Sasha post your gear, I am curious

Gear is in transition now, last time the system was complete, it consisted of:
PMC IB2s – sold, will build speakers, parts on their way.
Bryston 7B SST
Bryston BP 26
Wadia 581i SE – sold, replaced with BDA-1 and PC transport
PC transport, Zalman fanless case with heat pipes and radiators, completely tuned up HW and SW-wise for single purpose of being digital source (e.g. I do not even do ripping on it but on a different system), Lynx sound card
For standard optical transport I am yet to determine what I will use
EquiTech balanced power conditioner
Interconnects VDH/Neutrik balanced whenever possible, otherwise AZ Matrix II and Silver Reference
AZ Satori Speaker cable – sold, replacement TBD
Bunch of DVD and universal players of various quality

P.S. I hear ringing in every B&W speaker, I get a headache within 15 minutes of listening to female singers on B&W.
Same is true for literally every speaker I heard that uses carbon fiber in midrange cones.
To higher or lesser extent I hear metallic kind of ringing on every speaker I heard that uses some sort of metal material in midrange cones, especially aluminum ones, cannot  miss it.
The only speakers of dynamic type I heard that are capable or reproducing uncolored midrange always use some sort of natural dampened materials, examples being PMC, ATC, Rockport to name a few.

Sasha, what did u think of the Satori speaker cable?                               

Satori is nice when used with appropriate amp and speakers and you are romantic type of guy , not so nice when used with neutral components and your objective is the truth.
It is kind of dark with deep soundstage, somewhat colored.
I think you can do better for that kind of $ when seeking neutrality.
Kind of a sound you hear from let’s say McCormack DNA-250 in comparison to Bryston if you had a chance to hear presentation of both.

the reason i ask is because my AZ adagios use the satori for their internal wiring. I am considering running the same wire from my amp.


thanx

[Philistine]

This thread was all about Kosta and the help he needed getting his 4BSST to synergies with his 803's.
It's drifted off into all directions that have no relationship to this, if you have questions surely the correct etiquette is not to hijack his thread and either revert to PM's or start another thread elsewhere.

[werd]

This thread was all about Kosta and the help he needed getting his 4BSST to synergies with his 803's.
It's drifted off into all directions that have no relationship to this, if you have questions surely the correct etiquette is not to hijack his thread and either revert to PM's or start another thread elsewhere.

Excuse me.... at least we are reading the threads before we post. u went and told him to get another cd player and he's using a bcd-1. Keep your comments about how to conduct a thread to yourself.