B&W 803D sound harsh with Bryston gear?

Kosta · « **on:** 6 Mar 2009, 05:21 am »

I love BRYSTON and want to love it more. BUT I love B&W 803D's too. The combination is not bad but needs a tweak.

Here is what I have.

BP25p

BCD-1

4B SST (will be upgrading to 14B SST this week)

B&W 803D's

14 gauge bi wire with 25 ft runs.

The sound is quite good of-course but I have heard better with the 803D's. The speakers are rated at 500 RMS. The sound I get tends to come out a bit to bright at the mids and tweets. Bass could be a little deeper too.

I would love some input as to what to do. I will consider upgrading to a BP26 if that would help. Like I mentioned the 14B SST is coming soon but not sure about the improvements this could make over the 4b sst.

Thanks to all.

Kosta

niels · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Mar 2009, 11:04 am »

How is your room? Dampened? Lively?
How are speakers setup?

werd · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Mar 2009, 03:53 pm »

Quote from: Kosta on 6 Mar 2009, 05:21 am

I love BRYSTON and want to love it more. BUT I love B&W 803D's too. The combination is not bad but needs a tweak.

Here is what I have.

BP25p

BCD-1

4B SST (will be upgrading to 14B SST this week)

B&W 803D's

14 gauge bi wire with 25 ft runs.

The sound is quite good of-course but I have heard better with the 803D's. The speakers are rated at 500 RMS. The sound I get tends to come out a bit to bright at the mids and tweets. Bass could be a little deeper too.

I would love some input as to what to do. I will consider upgrading to a BP26 if that would help. Like I mentioned the 14B SST is coming soon but not sure about the improvements this could make over the 4b sst.

Thanks to all.

Kosta

Hi Kosta, I heard the B&W's and its just not with bryston that it needs the same attention. Cabling is crucial with B&Ws, stay with copper. I am also a big fan of conditioning, If u r going to purchase conditioning using the 14bsst, use one that cleans in parallel and not inline to avoid nerfing dynamics and such.
Also the new sst/2 class of amps are analogue sounding and pretty much put to rest all the critiquing that bryston is too bright sounding.

I put my whole system together to counter the same exact problems u r facing. So check out my gear below. I spent alot on cabling and i am glad i did.
My monster cable avs2000 is a voltage stabilizer and i use it only occassionally as its full of microproccessors it also suffers from gate glare. But i still do like it.

Another inexpensive tweak i use are the certified data mouse pads under my dac but u can use it under your cd player as well. This is very inexpensive tweak and i think would help u considerably in countering those undesirable highs. I only use the mouse pads under one component because i find if i use more it quiets my system too much, they r only 6 bucks a piece and u need 2 for one component. U can buy them at london drugs in canada only.

the bp26 gives your more bloom than with the bp25 as i think the bp25 is too dry. By the way u can just upgrade your ps to a mps-2 and by the same rite own a bp-26. I did.....

Check out the products and ideas used by Steve Nugent (empirical audio) as everything he sells counters bad digital highs. I use his signal cables and he modded my sony s7700

I hope this helps and rest assure u can have a full bryston setup and still have a sound that rocks, ( makes a distorted electric guitar sound like its being played through a marshall stack and not through an 80's transistor guitar amp.)

werd · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Mar 2009, 04:45 pm »

actually the 14sst's are goin to make a huge difference for u. I think u r on the right track with that 14bsst, there r alot of people here that own that amp and r better suited to comment on that.

Glen B · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Mar 2009, 06:38 pm »

There's lots of discussion in the B&W and Classé clubs over at HT Guide Forum. It seems that most B&W owners are happy pairing their speakers with McIntosh and Classé amplification.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/

werd · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Mar 2009, 08:03 pm »

Quote from: Glen B on 6 Mar 2009, 06:38 pm

There's lots of discussion in the B&W and Classé clubs over at HT Guide Forum. It seems that most B&W owners are happy pairing their speakers with McIntosh and Classé amplification.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/

Hi Glen, B&W and Classe are very nice together, i remember hearing a classe integrated partnered with a cdm series speaker that was very musical. But i think Bryston's bad rap with B&W were at a time before they offered their own digital front end. And its very easy to screw up Bryston/B&W combo with a lousy front end. The audio community hasnt caught up with sst/2 and B&W combos yet, as i havent heard it either, but i tell ya Classe and Mcintosh are going to have some more competition with B&W. I currently own a speaker that is normally partnered with a Mcintosh or some other lower powered tube amp. My 4bsst/2 doesnt harbor any of the old traits that embolded classe and mcintosh owners to strut their stuff in the face of Bryston.
Its all about massive power reserves and analogue sounding highs now.

P.S
Dont get me wrong Classe rocks the house too.

Kosta · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Mar 2009, 08:14 pm »

I am getting the feeling I have to make a choice to replace all my bryston gear with Classe or sell my 803D's for something like PMC.

Not too pleased. Perhaps I should wait until I get the 14B SST next week and see if there is an improvement.

Maybe a Tube Pre AMP would help... What about the power supply to my BP25p to a MPS2?

Keep it coming guys.

Thanks.

KnowTalent · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Mar 2009, 08:18 pm »

having owned N803s for eight years and going from a 1090 Rotel (380wpc) to McIntosh MA6900 (200wpc) to McIntosh MC501 monoblocks (500+ wpc)
All I can say is the phase curves on the N series speakers tend to be quite harsh and therefore create more load on the speakers than the nominal impedance would suggest. There are phase curves out there....

It is my belief that you cannot over amplify the N series and many have complained of their sound because they ran a amp lacking in power.
With the MA6900 the 803s produced decent sound as long as I didn't try pushing the volume much higher than low to mid 80's db spl
When I switched to the monoblocks I could play them much louder without developing a contracting soundstage and harder edge to the music.

I would think an amp capable of 250 wpc (minimum) into 8 ohms, will drive the D's quite nicely..depending on the size of your listening room and the level at which you're accustomed to listening. Since the D's have the extra woofer vs. the older (now "S" model) 803 I would guess that 350 would be better and 500wpc most ideal....with the 28sst being Nirvana

Make sure the speaker is driven with adequate power before you make any rash decisions on "voicing" as an overworked amp, no matter what the brand, will sound like isht

Philistine · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Mar 2009, 12:55 am »

Kosta, I've been down the same path with the previous 803's and the 4BSST and, for some reason, found the combination to be lacking in low end 'grunt'. You should have better success in this area with the 14BSST, and not make any changes until this is in place and up and running. I tried a number of solutions to eliminate the high end harshness, the most successful being replacing the CD player.

Source has already been mentioned by other posters - could you share with us what you are currently using?
This may be a 'red-herring' but a transparent and revealing system will magnify any weaknesses in the source. If this is not the issue, and you are still dissatisfied after the 14BSST addition, then a tubed based preamp is worth exploring.

SF · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Mar 2009, 02:52 am »

Hi Kosta;

I initially had that problem with the 4BSST driving my 804S speakers. Two upgrades significantly changed that. I cut the speakers wires to as short as possible, and I put as much copper between the speakers and the amp. Currently I run Kimber 8TC (AWG=9) + Monster XPHP (AWG=12) + 2 runs of Monster XP (AWG=16) for a total of 10 feet each run in a biwire fashion. Just increasing the copper and cutting the distance by 1/2 significantly improved the bass and, therefore, softened the treble in a relative sense. The second upgrade was to change the 4BSST for a 14BSST, and that just made the treble so much smoother and sweater. You are already doing the latter. Try the cheap upgrade of adding more copper before you even think of switching to Classe, which I found too dark. And, do not forget your room.

Let us know how the 14BSST upgrade goes.

Kosta · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Mar 2009, 05:38 am »

I have upgraded from a 4B SST to a 14B SST C Series and also upgraded from a BP25 to BP26.

The results have been positive. The sound is coming out more controlled and tolerable. Not so harsh on the top end and a little more tighter bass.

I can say that I am happy for now and will try to play more of my cd collection to understand what just happened.

I am now in the market for speaker cable.... currently using Zuwax speaker cables.

Any thoughts?

Kosta

mclsound · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Mar 2009, 11:04 am »

hi,i did several b&w yryouts and the 802 sounded like cardboard with the 14bsst and bp26,the same with the krell gear......BUT!!!!!!......a Mark levinson preamp,macintosh source with the 501 monoblocks sounded good....
but since you have the 14 and 26 you should keep the PMC route in mind...true synergy
i had the pmc ib1 and 14..great sound.
john

SF · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Mar 2009, 01:47 pm »

Hi Kosta;
Everyone has a different way of approaching this topic. I will tell you mine, which is based on crunching numbers. Others would prefer side by side testing, but that's sometimes difficult. Others prefer to go as expensive as possible thinking more money means better quality -- which is probably true to some extent. But in my mind, the law of diminishing returns applies here. I based my decision on calculating power loss at high frequencies using 4 variables: R (DC resistance), L (Inductance), C (Capacitance), G (Shunt conductance). Power loss at low frequency is related to the diameter or gauge of the wire and inversely related to the length. With RLGC parameters in hand, lowest possible R is best. For High frequency, you need low inductance and low capcitance. G is usually very small to begin with (it measures power dissipation into ground line across the dielectric insultation) in most cables. For instance, the RLGC calculations of Kimber 8TC predicts better transmission of high frequencies than Monster cable, but the differences were small. For the actual numbers you can look up my most in the following thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65167.0. Cutting the length had an usually marked effect that surprised me. Most audiophiles say keep your interconnects long so that you are able to keep the amp-speaker cable as short as possible. The calculations confirm that. Of course, a flat frquency response is not the only parameter, but there is not much room to improve matters above Kimber 8TC. Having said that, a cable that has the same inductance as 8TC but lower capacitance would improve the upper end even more. But I only calculate a -0.3 dB power loss at 100Khz with a 5 meter run of 8TC. This number is even lower at 20kHz. At the lower end, you need a much larger gauge than your present 14 AWG. So if I were to chose, I would chose a big fat but short cable.

Philistine · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Mar 2009, 03:20 pm »

Kosta, If the thread is heading in the direction of cables do a forum search on Gregg Straley Reality Cables - a significant number of long term forum members have them. I did an AB of a many of the highly rated cables and agreed that they were by far the best (in my system) and not expensive.

http://www.realitycables.com/

However, I still consider getting your equipment right is the first solution and cabling is a final tweaking.

werd · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Mar 2009, 03:47 pm »

Quote from: Kosta on 11 Mar 2009, 05:38 am

I have upgraded from a 4B SST to a 14B SST C Series and also upgraded from a BP25 to BP26.

The results have been positive. The sound is coming out more controlled and tolerable. Not so harsh on the top end and a little more tighter bass.

I can say that I am happy for now and will try to play more of my cd collection to understand what just happened.

I am now in the market for speaker cable.... currently using Zuwax speaker cables.

Any thoughts?

Kosta

Hi kosta

Try doin some detective work and find out what the internal wiring on your B&W's. If the wiring is available onthe market it might be worthwhile to run the same wire right out of your amp to your speakers. I own a pair of Acoustic zen and the internal wiring are the AZ satori speaker wire. i dont use em but i certainly am considering it. The blue circle wire is good too and it help take the edge off my 4bsst.

SF · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Mar 2009, 04:11 pm »

Philistine has a very good point. Speaker cables have much less of an effect on your overall sound. Equipment and room acoustics are much more important. If the speaker is right by the amp, virtually any speaker wire would do, so long as it is of a large gauge. That's the reason Bryston sells their own speaker wire and according to Mr. Tanner uses the same cable for demonstrations. Their cable is stranded 9 gauge copper wire. A 1.5 m 12 AWG stranded Monster copper cable will have -0.03 dB power loss at 20kHz! Difficult to argue that getting a flatter frquency response is audible. However, I will concede that other people will notice differences in speaker cables, which would mean calculating RLGC frequency curves is not the appropriate tool to get a handle on how speaker wires sound to the human ear.

The impact of room acoustics is certainly greater than 0.03 dB, and is by far the toughest tweak to tackle.

Goodluck cable hunting. For expensive wires, check out Audiogon. 2nd hand cables are rougly half-price.

KnowTalent · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Mar 2009, 04:47 pm »

Quote from: SF on 11 Mar 2009, 04:11 pm

Philistine has a very good point. Speaker cables have much less of an effect on your overall sound. Equipment and room acoustics are much more important. If the speaker is right by the amp, virtually any speaker wire would do, so long as it is of a large gauge. That's the reason Bryston sells their own speaker wire and according to Mr. Tanner uses the same cable for demonstrations. Their cable is stranded 9 gauge copper wire. A 1.5 m 12 AWG stranded Monster copper cable will have -0.03 dB power loss at 20kHz! Difficult to argue that getting a flatter frquency response is audible. However, I will concede that other people will notice differences in speaker cables, which would mean calculating RLGC frequency curves is not the appropriate tool to get a handle on how speaker wires sound to the human ear.

The impact of room acoustics is certainly greater than 0.03 dB, and is by far the toughest tweak to tackle.

Goodluck cable hunting. For expensive wires, check out Audiogon. 2nd hand cables are rougly half-price.

If you can get your room down to a few 3db peaks/nulls then you're doing pretty good.
imo, from my experience, exotic wire is fine if you have money to burn otherwise stick with the likes of BJC until you have everything else sorted.

werd · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Mar 2009, 01:45 am »

Kosta try running your main source straight into the tape monitor on your pre. i think its the best input on that pre and might resolve some of your issues. i find all the other inputs a little brighter, it might be the 50 kohm input or the 10k ohm input on the tape monitor that makes the difference, i dont know. This is pure preference listening and u may not even like the tape. They sound great on both but i like the tape the best.

i am also force to run balanced into my amp(due to cable lenghts) when i use my tape monitor and that might be why also.

amdan · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Mar 2009, 06:11 am »

Kosta,

I had the same problem with my 14B SST and B&W 802N. The trebel was shocking. It was very harsh. Changing the power cord on my CDP made a significant difference. I believe the CDP was polluting the power going into the other components. The power cable filtered some of this out. Once I did this the system went from unbearable to listenable.

I then bought a PS Audio Power Plant Premier (PPP). The system went from listenable to excellent. All my equipment is plugged into it, including the Bryston. I know many conditioners cannot provide the current required to the Bryston but the PPP can. I have done some thorough testing to prove this to myself.

I reviewed a Classe amp with the B&W (either in this forum or the B&W forum). Please have a look at that for a comparision between Classe and Bryston.

Good luck.

Philistine · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 Mar 2009, 01:55 pm »

Kosta,

Here's a thread just started by a 4BSST owner who's just added a tubed preamp to his system.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=66000.msg606095;topicseen#new

The speakers he has are not 803's but Salk HT3's, I switched from 803's to HT3's. I do believe you can extrapolate his findings to the old 803's, but cannot comment on the 803D's. I know the poster, Chuck, as I auditioned the HT3's at his house - he also switched from 803's so we have something in common. At the same time I can vouch for the validity of his post as Chuck is a very critical listener!

NB
This is not meant to be a shill for HT3's, I still believe the 803 is a great speaker that is possibly the most undervalued in the B&W range and the 'sweet spot'.