new PC for $1K or less?

sts9fan · « **Reply #80 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 05:18 pm »

Quote

The points in favor of a slower/cheaper hardware connected to a really fast SDD really resonate with me.

Your system is only as fast as the slowest component.

whubbard · « **Reply #81 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 06:16 pm »

You system is only as fast as the hard drive...when it is accessing the hard drive.
All the other components are used pretty much 100% of the time.
Thats why I'm in a favor of what might be considered a 'slower' hard drive, but better other components, as overall performance will be better.

-West

bpape · « **Reply #82 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 06:22 pm »

All depends on what you're using it for.

The hard drive and CD/DVD drives are orders of magnitude slower than the rest of the system no matter what you do. A 7200 RPM drive with a big cache on it is usually plenty good. No real need most of the time to get into 10k RPM drives.

Bryan

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #83 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 10:14 pm »

When you are waiting on your computer, what is it typically doing? Take a look at that little LED that flickers. My bet, is that if you are waiting, it is for disk access. I don't wait for my computer when I'm typing in Word, or when I'm clicking a menu, or when I'm manipulating a picture in Photoshop. Even the processor/memory/mainboard Southbridge/Northbridge are capable of doing those things without delay. The only exception to this is with web browsing. The Internet connection is the bottleneck. But for the most part, what slows down use of my desktop computer is drive access time. I'm not sitting waiting for the processor to process data. I'm not waiting for my main memory access. Things that operate strictly in main memory are already fast. It is the hard drive primarily that slows down things at the human level. It is the access to large amounts of data that either the OS or your program needs to operate. If you speed up that process significantly, you speed up the user experience significantly because the delays of drive access are measured in seconds rather than milliseconds.

whubbard · « **Reply #84 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 10:36 pm »

Stereocilia,
Just my last .02 before you make a choice:
1) I would still stick to building it yourself.
2) I would keep a 'normal' HD not a SSD (what do we even call 'normal' HDs at this point, as SSDs are HDs...)

-West

stereocilia · « **Reply #85 on:** 16 Feb 2009, 01:51 am »

I'm leaning away from getting the SSD for this system FOR NOW, simply because I will most likely upgrade to a solid-state drive later when prices come down while performance and capacity go up. I wonder, should I get this case and power supply combo, and get everything else as West has suggested from Newegg?

http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=antec_sonata.html
$129

If I end up ordering the case and power supply from Newegg, I like the Antec 300 a little better than the Cooler Master, partly because the power supply is on the bottom of the case (if I'm looking at the pictures correctly)

The Case/Fan/Power supply from Newegg:
Antec 300 Case $59
120mm Fan (x2) $50
PowerSupply $40
We're up to about $150 already, so the package for $129 for a setup which is specifically designed with quietness as a primary goal seems good.

Does that seem sensible? Thanks again, everyone, for your input.

jqp · « **Reply #86 on:** 16 Feb 2009, 04:17 am »

120mm Fan (x2) $50 - seems to be too much for 2 120mm fans!

PowerSupply $40 - seems to be too little for a decent power supply( unless its on a great sale or a great rebate)!

here is a decent thread

http://www.devhardware.com/forums/power-supply-units-98/how-to-choose-a-power-supply-94217.html

whubbard · « **Reply #87 on:** 16 Feb 2009, 04:36 am »

120mm for quiet case fans can get pricey.

The 120mm that endpcnoise has are VERY loud!
Air Flow   39 / 56 / 79 CFM
Noise Level   25 / 28 / 30 dBA

vs.

the 120mm fan I had suggested:
Air Flow   38 CFM
Noise Level   9 dBA

But that comes at a price.

Also, the Antec 300 is not that same as the Antec III. It has a 140mm fan on top, which will probably be loud. At the end of the day, there really isn't going to be a difference in noise between the Antec III and the CoolerMaster. The Antec will really only get better if you are willing to pay $25 for the one 9dBA fan. The Antec III has the power supply on top too.

The CoolerMaster has one extra 80mm that will help cool the PC, and the one if suggested is pretty quiet. But, very little difference all around from the Antec III.

The Antec III from NewEgg comes with a power supply that will work fine, and it costs $109.99
N82E16811129024

It is EXACTLY what endpcnoise is trying to sell you. They just want to take another $20 from you pocket.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry if the above is complicated...
Essentially its as I've said before, pick a case that looks good. There really won't be a difference in sound.
I 'personally' feel the CoolerMaster will serve you better. But if you do pick the Antec III, realize you only need one 120mm Fan.
The stock 140mm fan in the Antec will most likely be loud. There is a nice $12 Aerocool fan that will be quieter (N82E16835129249). Combined with the quiet 120mm fan, that will be a good setup.

If you like the Antec 300, get it!
If you like the Antec III, get it! (but don't give endpcnoise the extra $20)
etc....

Just pick the case, figure out if it needs a power supply, then pick matching quiet fans.

-West

p.s. The $59.99 (-$20 Mail-in-Rebate) 400W Corsair Power Supply is GREAT! The Corsair supplies are known for there quality.

stereocilia · « **Reply #88 on:** 16 Feb 2009, 05:13 am »

West,
I was browsing case fan options, is there any reason not to use this combo? (I'll stick with your rec for the Cooler Master Case)

Scythe S-FLEX SFF21D 120mm Case Fan - Retail
Item #: N82E16835185004
8.7 dB
33.5 CFM
$12.99
and
the 80mm I think this is the one you suggested
SilenX IXP-54-09 80mm Case Fan - Retail
Item #: N82E16835191006

Tomorrow a local B&M "You-Do-It Electronics" is having a mega President's Day Sale, so I will look for a good monitor while I'm there. I'm not sure they sell computer monitors, but if not, I will go for the Samsung you suggested earlier. So...tomorrow I order!

jqp · « **Reply #89 on:** 16 Feb 2009, 05:14 am »

the Antec 300 is nice but may be too loud looking at your requirements - the noise would come more from the hard drives than any fans...especially as you add hard drives.

They say the Antec III 500 is quiet, and comes with a 500W EarthWatts PSU and costs $109 if you are going to go with Egghead. Nothing wrong with Coolermaster, as I said I also have the Centurion which is a monster, but very quiet and has lots of drive space!

You may not need multiple additional 120mm fans - you can measure your CPU temp and case temp via the BIOS screen to see if you need moire cooling - often you do not especialy with the new CPUs and Power Supplies. Also case fans can be turned down if they have controllers, assuming you don't meed that much cooling - this can decrease noise further.

whubbard · « **Reply #90 on:** 16 Feb 2009, 05:16 am »

Stereocilia,

There is nothing wrong with that Scythe Fan. It's perfect. I don't know why I didn't see it the first time....

-West

stereocilia · « **Reply #91 on:** 16 Feb 2009, 05:32 am »

Well, in searching through a bazillion parts I suppose one could be forgiven for letting one slightly better deal fall through the cracks.

stereocilia · « **Reply #92 on:** 17 Feb 2009, 12:18 am »

Order Placed from Newegg!

Just in time, too. I just got a "Shutdown due to thermal failure" or some such thing today for the first time ever. I'm not sure if it's because the side of the computer case was pushed up against the side of an armchair, but there was no obstruction to any vent and it was otherwise clear. Booted up fine right afterward.

Kind Thanks to everyone who contributed -- it's great to have such a rich variety of opinions (I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean it!), and I'll post here with a progress report.

stereocilia · « **Reply #93 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 04:28 am »

System build complete! I plugged everything in, and it worked. Well, okay, the first time I turned it on it took me five minutes to realize that I didn't plug the motherboard into the power supply in the two required locations. oops.

The only major problem I've encountered is that the fancy CPU cooler doesn't fit. It wasn't even close. The heatsinks around the chipset did not allow the mounting bracket to fit in place, so I just installed the stock Intel CPU cooler. I'll have to look at the exchange policy, but I doubt it can be returned. Hopefully, I didn't stress the board when attempting to get the cooler in place.

I was able to figure out how to install the MoBo into the case, no thanks to the case manual which was about as basic as it gets. For instance, "Install the motherboard using suitable screws." I assumed I couldn't just screw the motherboard down flush with the case, so I used the enclosed threaded brass lugs in the nine mounting locations, about which the manual made no mention. There is also no mention of where I should put the enclosed ferrite ring. For that matter, there was no mention of the fact that it should be enclosed, or that it is called a ferrite ring, I just happen to think I know that's what it's called. It is a really nice case, though.

I must say, this machine really fast! I'm pleased with the outcome so far, CPU cooler debacle notwithstanding. It's louder than I'd like, but not too bad -- I'm confident that can be resolved.

whubbard · « **Reply #94 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 04:35 am »

Glad to hear it.

I'm pretty sure that the cooler fits nicely with that board, let me look into it. Sorry if I goofed in that regard.
Also, the quieter 120mm will help too.

The ferrite ring is also probably meant to go on the power cord, but I really have no idea.

-West

People have made it fit multiple times before, here is what they say:
"Had trouble attatching my Zalman 9500 onto there. It basically doesn't fit, but you can get it to fit if you neglect the Zalman manual and rotate the clip lever around. It gets a little tight around that area though."

Make sure you clean the CPU and re-apply the good thermal grease.

jqp · « **Reply #95 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 06:34 am »

The retail CPU coolers are usually perfect unless you are attempting to overclock the CPU or you have a hot case.

Case manuals are usually vague, one reason is that there are so many different motherboards out there.

Most of the issues I have had with my builds seem to be related to the motherboard connection to the case - it can affect the seating of cards which can loosen up over time. So make sure you get as many risers under the board as you can, and that the board is properly aligned...

whubbard · « **Reply #96 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 06:40 am »

Quote from: jqp on 22 Feb 2009, 06:34 am

The retail CPU coolers are usually perfect unless you are attempting to overclock the CPU or you have a hot case.

Very True. However, in terms of having a quiet case, a big chuck of copper on top of you CPU allows the cooling fan to run at lower RPMs, as the CPU is being cooled 'passively'. Thats why I am going to use one in my quiet music computer build.

-West

stereocilia · « **Reply #97 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 03:36 pm »

I feel that the motherboard is aligned well with the case; all the cards and outputs line up perfectly.

As far as the fan goes, there is a lug on both sides of the frame to hold the clip, one is shorter than the other. The manual says to orient the frame in an impossible way, but it does fit in one out of four possible orientations. The clip will just barely sneak in between the chipset cooler and the frame, but it will not latch in because there is also a capacitor (or something) keeping the clip from dropping down far enough. It's frustratingly close. I used more force that I'm comfortable with to try to make it fit; then I stopped.

I'll have to look into buying a better-fitting fan for the sake of noise reduction. Not that it's loud by computer standards, but I just want that extra measure of quietness.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #98 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 04:31 am »

Quote from: Kevin Haskins on 13 Feb 2009, 06:12 pm

Hold tight and I'll give you my evaluation. I'll be ordering one of the Vertex drives as soon as they are released.

I have the Vostro 220 with the standard 250G 7200 RPM drive to compare it with. Brand new OS installation. If it doesn't speed up my everyday work I'll not hesitate to tell you it was money down the toilet.

Dell won't do anything. If your going to use one of them you are going to have to do some work for yourself. That doesn't sound like a problem on your side. I wouldn't recommend them to my mother or some other casual computer user simply because it takes some technical work to optimize the OS and the install for them.

Well.... I got tired of waiting for the Vertex. I ordered a pair of these:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10009698

I got one from the Egg and the other from the above link so I could take advantage of the rebates. Total cost for two drives was $216 which is pretty expensive for a 120G drive (the two are in RAID 0 so you end up with 120G effective drive space).

From a performance standpoint, I've never used a faster system. Applications load almost instantly. Photoshop, which would crank and grunt on my old system loads in about a second or two. I can do a virus scan, open applications and browse the web without any slowdown. I'm very happy with the results.

A quick benchmark. This was with the AVG Virus protection running in the background.

stereocilia · « **Reply #99 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 05:34 am »

I am really happy with this new system...blazing fast. Yet, it is as you say, any waiting stems from the HD. Still, everything basically loads fast enough that it's ready for me before I'm ready for it. I find myself needlessly waiting for something to happen which has already happened. At this point, I'm ready to get my brain out of the computer world and get back into the realm of audio.