[stereocilia]

Thank you very much, this helps enormously.  What about Kevin's idea about a solid-state drive for the OS and major apps -- I'm intrigued by this idea.    I already have an external HD, and I could later add more/bigger as I rip more of my cd collection and add photos.  BTW it's a Seagate FreeAgent and it does have a SATA or USB, but I suppose I need a SATA cable to connect it to the new machine if I want to go that route.

[whubbard]

SSD = $$$ 

[Kevin Haskins]

Some SSD reading:

http://www.cdfreaks.com/reviews/OCZ-Technology-Apex-Series-SSD-review/conclusion.html

http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=290&Itemid=60&limit=1&limitstart=12

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=661&type=expert&pid=11


I'm holding out for the new Vertex which is going to be released soon.  

[Kevin Haskins]

SSD = $$$ 

The Apex in those reviews can be had for $179 for the 60G model.   I wouldn't use it as my only form of storage but for the OS and all the main applications that is plenty.     I'd argue that spending $180 on that drive would benefit you much more than spending it on a processor.    Main memory is important too, especially if you are using a 64 bit version of Vista but as long as you stick with the DDR2 memory it is REALLY cheap.   

Dell Vostro $420 + $250 on memory and 60G SSD = $670

Not what I'd call expensive.   That is what I'd call a low-midrange system.   What you get is boot times cut in half, applications load in a flash, your system doesn't slow to a crawl during virus scans and you can multitask without any slowdown.    That is a hell of a lot more important to me than a benchmark rating in some game I'll never play.

Note on the SSDs.   You will need to do some reading to optimize the install for SSD.   Windows is optimized around a hard disk so there are several features that need to be turned off to optimize the SSD.    If you install XP you have to format the drive correctly too.    There is information on the OCZ site to sort all of that out during install.     

[whubbard]

SDD aren't THAT good:
http://hothardware.com/News/OCZ_Core_Series_SSD_Vs_VelociRaptor_Sneak_Peek/

I personally have two Raptors in my main computer, but they're not cheap either.

I just don't think its worth $106 for the 60GB Ocz. Just stick with a big 7200 drive for now. SSD prices will drop in the comming year or two, and then they will really be worth it.

-West

[Kevin Haskins]

SDD aren't THAT good:
http://hothardware.com/News/OCZ_Core_Series_SSD_Vs_VelociRaptor_Sneak_Peek/

I personally have two Raptors in my main computer, but they're not cheap either.

I just don't think its worth $106 for the 60GB Ocz. Just stick with a big 7200 drive for now. SSD prices will drop in the comming year or two, and then they will really be worth it.

-West

I wouldn't buy one of the older Core Series.   I'd advocating the Apex or Vertex.   The Apex does about 110 MB/S on the writes in single disk form and up near 200MB/S in reads.     Don't get one of the first generation SSDs.   They have all kinds of problems. 

[whubbard]

The 60GB Vertex will run you about $270. I still think the price needs to come down a lot before its worth it. Just my .02

-West

[Kevin Haskins]

The 60GB Vertex will run you about $270. I still think the price needs to come down a lot before its worth it. Just my .02

-West

Actually, the Vertex hasn't been released yet.   It was originally going to be $249 retail for the 60G version but since then, OCZ has announced it is going to be lower.    I think it will end up being around $235 retail and the online vendors will discount it as normal. 

If you bought something available now it would make the most sense to use the Apex.   It is $179 from Newegg after rebate.   

[stereocilia]

Okay, I have some reading to do, for sure.  The points in favor of a slower/cheaper hardware connected to a really fast SDD really resonate with me.  I wonder if the Dell would have the flexibility to optimize the settings for an SDD, and does it void the warranty?  I'll probably get answers to those kinds of questions after I delve into to reading. 

[whubbard]

http://www.xpcgear.com/ocz-oczssd2-1vtx60g-vertex-ssd.html
http://www.provantage.com/ocz-technology-oczssd2-1vtx60g~7OCZT0CK.htm

There are a lot more vendors...It's out.
http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/flash_drives/ocz_vertex_series_sata_ii_2_5-ssd (OCZ says it's out)
Here's the Press Release with pricing from OCZ: http://www.ocztechnology.com/aboutocz/press/2008/320

Also,
Stereocilia, SSD is great, but it does not make your computer THAT much better for what you wish to do. Its just not worth the price. Programs may open 30% faster, (Word will load in 2 seconds instead of 3...etc), but once they are open you won't notice the difference. To me, that's just not worth it.

-West

[Kevin Haskins]

Hold tight and I'll give you my evaluation.   I'll be ordering one of the Vertex drives as soon as they are released.   

I have the Vostro 220 with the standard 250G 7200 RPM drive to compare it with.   Brand new OS installation.   If it doesn't speed up my everyday work I'll not hesitate to tell you it was money down the toilet.   

Dell won't do anything.   If your going to use one of them you are going to have to do some work for yourself.    That doesn't sound like a problem on your side.    I wouldn't recommend them to my mother or some other casual computer user simply because it takes some technical work to optimize the OS and the install for them.

[Jon L]

http://www.xpcgear.com/ocz-oczssd2-1vtx60g-vertex-ssd.html
http://www.provantage.com/ocz-technology-oczssd2-1vtx60g~7OCZT0CK.htm

Also,
Stereocilia, SSD is great, but it does not make your computer THAT much better for what you wish to do. Its just not worth the price. Programs may open 30% faster, (Word will load in 2 seconds instead of 3...etc), but once they are open you won't notice the difference. To me, that's just not worth it.

-West

Then there are folks, including some very respected people, who swear SSD makes PC audio actually *sound* better, which is why many audiophiles are jumping on to SSD.  I need to test this for myself when SSD prices come down, so don't shoot the messenger.

[Kevin Haskins]

http://www.xpcgear.com/ocz-oczssd2-1vtx60g-vertex-ssd.html
http://www.provantage.com/ocz-technology-oczssd2-1vtx60g~7OCZT0CK.htm

Also,
Stereocilia, SSD is great, but it does not make your computer THAT much better for what you wish to do. Its just not worth the price. Programs may open 30% faster, (Word will load in 2 seconds instead of 3...etc), but once they are open you won't notice the difference. To me, that's just not worth it.

-West

Then there are folks, including some very respected people, who swear SSD makes PC audio actually *sound* better, which is why many audiophiles are jumping on to SSD.  I need to test this for myself when SSD prices come down, so don't shoot the messenger.

I don't care about sound.   This is on my main workstation and I tend to have several programs open including Photoshop, UPS Worldship, Quickbooks, Firefox, Outlook, Word, etc......    For me, opening a program to check an order while on the phone is the key.   I want programs to open quickly so that I can search the database or transact quickly.    These are all hard drive access time & data throughput operations.     They don't take a ton of processor because the hard disk is the bottleneck.   

By all means you should buy plenty of RAM also.   For XP or Vista 32 you should max the system out with 4G.   If you get a 64 bit operating system I'd probably buy more.   I'm an XP user so that is what I focus on and 32 bit XP can only access up to 4G theoretically, less in reality because you have all the addresses used by system resources.     I use that extra RAM as a RAM disk for browser cache.     RAM is cheap (DDR2)...... load up your system no matter what you buy.

I'd also point out that what you buy, should depend on what you do.    Your applications and how you use the system should drive your hardware choices.    I see people frequently buying computers based upon specs.   Of course they don't know how those specs exactly relate to performance but it is assumed that a 3Ghz processor is faster than a 2 Ghz processor etc...    Well.... system performance depends upon the entire system.   A good analogy is cars.   If you have one car that has a 450HP engine and another that has a 300HP engine, it is fair assumption that the higher horsepower is going to be faster.    But the reality is that it is a lot more than just an engine that wins the race.    If the 450HP engine is in a Chevette, and the 300HP engine is in a Corvette and the course was a Formula One track, I'd have my money on the 300HP Corvette.     

Computers are the same way.   If you have an application that stresses processing power and it can run in the memory footprint of your RAM, the hard drive is going to be meaningless.    If you have a 200MB database, and you have to open it and manipulate those files your system will continually go to the disk for small reads & writes.    In that situation the SSD will be much faster than any hard disk simply because it doesn't have a physical head to move.    It is hundreds of times faster at random reads.     If you are just transferring a large file, the current state of the art HDs are pretty good.   They will quickly be surpassed by solid state drives though and for OS & main programs, having those programs on solid state drives is going to transform the user experience in a couple years.    Right now they are in their infancy and the software and other system parameters have yet to mesh for complete performance.    These things overload the bandwidth of the SATA controllers in RAID configurations and in 6-12 months they will be faster.     At that point, you need a faster interface in order to take advantage of their speed.   
  

[jqp]

I don't think you will personally notice a large difference between cases, it's just what you think looks better. The only real difference is that the Antec comes with an Antec PSU. I personally would rather have the Corsair supply. I would pick whichever case you think looks more appealing to your eye.

-West

Actually the Antec 300 comes without power supply - get 500+ watts

http://www.directron.com/threehundred.html

    *  No Power Supply included: To optimize performance of your Three Hundred, your choice of power supply is crucial. Antec strongly recommends choosing from our NeoPower or TruePower series.
    * 9 Drive Bays:
      -External: 3 x 5.25".
      -Internal: 6 x 3.5" for HDD.
    * Cooling System:
      -1 rear 120 x 25 mm TriCool Fan with 3-speed switch control.
      -1 top special 140 x 25 mm TriCool Fan with 3-speed switch control.
      -2 front (optional) 120 mm fans to cool the hard drives.
      -1 side (Optional) 120 x 25 mm Fan to cool graphic cards.
    * Washable air filters reduces dust build up in your system, which helps keep your system cooler.
    * Perforated front bezel for maximum air intake.
    * 7 expansion slots.
    * Top mounted I/O ports for easy access:
      -2 x USB 2.0
      -HDA & AC'97 Audio In and Out
    * Unit dimensions:
      -18" (H) x 18.3" (D) x 8.1" (W).
      -45.8 (H) x 46.5 (D) x 20.5 cm (W).

[Kevin Haskins]

The Dells come with small power supplies that are just big enough to run the system.   If you want to put in dual gaming video cards, RAID arrays and RAID controllers or do crazy power intensive applications, the Dell isn't the way to go.

If you need a computer for normal desktop use, the Dell does just fine.   You can put moderate gaming cards, memory upgrades etc.. but your not going to overclock them or get any of those hardware geek functions.     The are inexpensive systems well designed to their price point, nothing more.   

[whubbard]

I don't think you will personally notice a large difference between cases, it's just what you think looks better. The only real difference is that the Antec comes with an Antec PSU. I personally would rather have the Corsair supply. I would pick whichever case you think looks more appealing to your eye.

-West

Actually the Antec 300 comes without power supply - get 500+ watts

http://www.directron.com/threehundred.html

I was primarily just talking about from NewEgg...getting from multiple vendors will just increasing shipping costs...There is also nothing that special about the  Antec III that would make it worth that.

-West

[jqp]

 

One other thing to consider - you can have a company like Directron build and test your system for you for a nominal fee

You may choose customer-configured bare-bone systems by choosing your case, motherboard, CPU, CPU cooler, floppy drive, CD-ROM drive, video card, sound card, modem, and other components. Click here to see a worksheet to help you choose the components. Add the components to your shopping cart to figure out the total system price and add the $27 labor charge. We'll ship you a fully-assembled and tested barebone system. Great for resellers and first-time system builders. If you are a registered user of Directron.com, you may save your configurations in different shopping baskets for comparisons.

Use the $39 labor charge if you are also purchasing operating system and would like us to install and configure the OS for you.

http://www.directron.com/barebone.html

[whubbard]

Ah,
But the knowledge & experience is only gained if you do it yourself.

-West

[stereocilia]

Having a directron build a system I configure may be a good option, I'll take a close look on Sunday night and Monday.

[Kevin Haskins]

Here is a leaked benchmark on the new Vertex SSD.      Over twice what the Velociraptor is capable of doing.