Recommendations for 8 inch driver High Eff to 2000hz (?)

panomaniac · « **Reply #20 on:** 15 Dec 2008, 08:19 pm »

Yes I would agree. If you are into aggressive rock or similar, this isn't the speaker for you.
I'm not (spent too much time working in the biz) so this type of rig works for me. Vocals, lounge lizard stuff, chamber music, jazz, some orchestral, etc...

On my pro driver system my wife thought Metallica ruled. So did the rest of the neighborhood.

kyrill · « **Reply #21 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 12:14 pm »

I am still waitihg for my speakers to come from Germany. Xmas time is a bad time for shipping

Josh:
Lambda's TD6.5M i see are designed for: "These will cover a range from 300hz on up to 3KHz or higher very well, which was the ultimate goal."

I really want to try a 100/150hz-2khz driver

JoshK · « **Reply #22 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 02:31 pm »

Kyrill,

That is going to be a bit difficult to do with hi-eff. Its an outgrowth of Hoffman's iron law that small size (in this case driver size), hi-efficiency and low extention (100hz) can't all be achieved at the same time. You have to shave db/w's, go up to a 12-15" mid or move the xo points higher. If this is OB, then you can make the baffle super wide to extend the lower reach for a given driver.

Pro audio drivers are usually designed for maximum efficiency, thus their cones are made as light as possible, stiff paper, which exhibits some nasty breakups. That will make the 2khz point marginal. There isn't a lot of options between the standard audiophile type drivers and pro-audio drivers. Lambda is one of the options in the 'tween states.

The 6" Lambda might not meet your ideals, but maybe a future 8" will be better suited (they've hinted).

kyrill · « **Reply #23 on:** 2 Jan 2009, 09:22 pm »

ok THX

Scott F. · « **Reply #24 on:** 3 Jan 2009, 12:18 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 2 Jan 2009, 02:31 pm

That is going to be a bit difficult to do with hi-eff. Its an outgrowth of Hoffman's iron law that small size (in this case driver size), hi-efficiency and low extention (100hz) can't all be achieved at the same time.

Josh, I have to respectfully disagree with your theory. In real life, I'm crossing my Lowther PM2As at 125 and getting mid-bass a plenty.

Poll any of the GAS guys that have been by since I finished the OBs and they'll let you know they work. In fact, MeRev (Chris) is building an identical pair he likes the sound so much.

Kyrilk, if you want real HiE, think about the Lowther PM2A or the PM6A. Not only will you get to 2K, you'll get out to almost 14k. Of all the Lowthers I've listened to over the years, these two models are their best offerings . No 'honk', no 'shout', plenty of detail and extension. When mounted in a baffle like I've constructed and in a room where they can breathe, they throw a monstrous soundstage. Not to mention, you can drive them with any amp you choose to buy from SE 45's on up. Be prepared though, these things aren't cheap nor are they fun to listen to until they get fully broken in (500 hours as a bare minimum and 2K hours they loose the last of their bite).

JoshK · « **Reply #25 on:** 3 Jan 2009, 07:17 am »

Fair enough. How efficient is the results from 125 on up? Your baffle is actually decently large, but not huge.

bluesky · « **Reply #26 on:** 3 Jan 2009, 09:35 am »

Hi Everyone

I too wish to build some open baffles, sooner, rather than later, but this project still languishes as an idea! I recently asked the advice of someone who works in the audio industry about using some vintage bass drivers which can often be sourced fairly cheaply off Ebay. I read such conflicting opinions on this as well as many other aspect of our audio hobby.

This guys advice was the old drivers just stack up against modern ones and his reasoning was that there has been an awful lot of development put into drivers and surely this has improved the breed. Then other people state that the old drivers were tuned by ear whereas the modern ones are simply created by a computer program and subjective measurements and it is our ears that tell the true story.

Both arguments have merit and, I am no closer to deciding which way to jump, well not really true, the cost factor may be the most important aspect in these harsh economic times!

Bluesky

Scott F. · « **Reply #27 on:** 3 Jan 2009, 02:10 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 3 Jan 2009, 07:17 am

Fair enough. How efficient is the results from 125 on up? Your baffle is actually decently large, but not huge.

Hey Josh,

They actually perform extremely well at that crossover point. One thing though, I suspect if you use a one of the current production XOs and try to do a steep XO point (like 48db) on both the woofer and wide range driver you will end up with a hole in the sound. The XO that I use is a rebuilt vintage Pioneer SF-850. When I was running the 15" Goodmans, I was doing an 18db XO top and bottom. I've since swtched to a pair of 15" Altec 416s. With the Altecs, I think I prefer a 12db XO on the bottom and 18db on the top. That 12db give a gentle lift to the mid-bass filling in a very minor gap that I perceived by ear. I haven't had time to do 'proper' in room measurements. I may do that someday but to my ears and comparing to decent sounding traditional monkey coffins, that transition is pretty flat.

Based on my trials over the past couple of years playing with the Lowthers, you can get quality mid-bass by crossing the PM2A or PM6A as low as 125Hz on a baffle that measures approx. 53t x 16w. Just don't try to use too steep of a XO point. A gentler slope can sometimes prove to be your friend (assuming your drivers phasing and output at that XO point are reasonably complimentary).

JoshK · « **Reply #28 on:** 3 Jan 2009, 09:01 pm »

I think its true more generally, that the lower in freq the lower the slope makes integration easier. Steep slopes are better used between the tweeter and mid from what I can surmise.

Down low you have to really understand the power response, not just the on axis given how long the wavelengths are, since the room response has a big contribution. I think this is why the shallow slopes are easier. It makes the transition more gradual, especially with the power response of the two drivers is very different.

panomaniac · « **Reply #29 on:** 4 Jan 2009, 06:11 am »

Modern vs Vintage? There are gems and junk in both. At least with the modern drivers you might have a better idea of how they sound. And recoarse if you don't like them.

That said, I've been happy with the sound of vintage drivers as wideband midrange on OB. The trick is getting the good stuff.
I think if you stick to Saba, Grundig (I like) Philips, Telefunken, you'll be OK. And they won't break the bank. There are good vintage French drivers, too - but they are harder to find.

The good vintage stuff will not "Stack Up" to modern drivers if you want thumping bass and sizzly highs. But if you are using them for an OB midrange, you may just love them. =)

kyrill · « **Reply #30 on:** 4 Jan 2009, 11:34 am »

"you might just love them"

that is my hope
but i got them in the house now and boy they weight very light. The magnet is very small..

modern day magnets are much much bigger

but if they dont have to do bass under 100-125, and no highs over 2khz and i listen to
small combo's mainly almost never over 90dB (except Limp Bizkit on occasion

and are driven by
a superb transparent triode , it may work?

I hope so

panomaniac · « **Reply #31 on:** 4 Jan 2009, 06:47 pm »

Same for the vintage drivers I've used, at least Alnico. Not a big magnet. But the drivers were always in the low to mid 90s sensitive, so no problem.

I think you can take the mids higher than 2K. Like 4-6K. As long as the drivers don't have to do bass duty, you can rock out all you want.

Zero One · « **Reply #32 on:** 6 Jan 2009, 07:45 am »

Kyrill I am currently breaking in a set of Paudio 10 inch drivers, they are being used on OB with a pair of 12 inch woofers per side, it is very early in the piece to make many useful comments but I can tell you a few things that might help.

The crossover frequency for the tweeter has a big influence on the sound but overall the tweeter seems to work very nicely, but it needs to be controlled via an L Pad or perhaps bi-amped.

They can go fairly low, probably lower than most of the breed, but they need a fair amount of EQ ing in the 300 to 2000hz range ( ie reducing )

They are seriously efficient drivers and go incredibly loud, this is great except that on most tranny amps you will be using so little power that you will be the highest distortion area of the amps delivery for even moderately loud listening, in my case I had to put an L pad on the driver so the amp could be turned up and this made the sound much much better.

The efficiency is so high that any circuit noise will be quite obvious, so you need to pay attention to amp and pre-amp earthing etc.

Dynamics are of the "hit you over the head with a baseball bat type", they really can catch you out.

Mind you if you want to create sound levels akin to a real live rock concert leaving the L-pad off and firing away will certainly do it even with just a few watts.

The surrounds are truly stiff when new so these drivers will take a long time and a hefty workout to break in.

The high end is really pretty extended, but a super tweete or similarr can round things off nicely, in my case a motorola piezo cut in at 8000 or so, but you could get away with out it, it just adds that little bit of air.

Hope it helps
Zero One

kyrill · « **Reply #33 on:** 6 Jan 2009, 10:34 am »

Hi Zero one
I really would like to hear yr future follow ups on this driver. This I did not know:

Have tubeamps their highest distortion when playing their extremes in loudness? So
at very low and max outputs? ( i have a 22 watt triode PP amp)
which type is it? ( BM10cxa or on of the new SN series?)

this is Paudio's newest 8 inch ( SN II series)

is it OB applicable? ( sorry for the unclarity of the text)
I know OB designs prefer highish qts but is this true from 100hz and up?
IS the Vas parameter important? Would higher be more suitable for OB?

Zero One · « **Reply #34 on:** 6 Jan 2009, 12:51 pm »

Hello Kyrill

Mine are the 10CXA versions.

Tube amps would be highly suitable I would think, they tend to be cleaner at lower listening levels and 22 watts is way more than these drivers need, seriously even 5 watts (which I have also tried) is extremely loud.

I don't worry too much about what is supposed to work and what isn't, most set-ups can be made too work reasonably well in OB configs but yes these are suitable for open baffle use. Basically it is not really possible to get full range on an OB with one speaker, hence my use of a pair of 12 inch woofers per side.

A small driver (even efficient 4 inches) can work amazingly well on OBs with larger bass units, but the larger mid drivers will give much greater dynamics and that is really what these Paudios are about.

It is important to note however that when you use main drivers as efficient as the Paudios you are going to need either very efficient woofers or lots of sub amp power, otherwise the bass will be overwhelmed by everything else. The Paudios can go well beyond 2000hz even with the tweeter disconnected, so combining the tweeter with variable crossover and L pad gives a lot of room for tailoring the sound and keeping the crossover point out of the key audible frequency range.

I would advise you go for 15 inch woofers and a solid tranny amp for the bass with the tube amp for the mids.

It is of course possible to use a sealed sub unit for the bass (preferably two of them) but I would advise against a ported sub, it will be a very poor match in this set up.

Having tried all options though open baffle bass, (with appropriate equalization) is really the best way for real musical results, though this will work best in a larger room.

kyrill · « **Reply #35 on:** 6 Jan 2009, 01:31 pm »

Hi Z1 ; ) you underline my ideas. I have 4 ( 2x2 12" servo woofers from GR-Reaearch in OB fashion and use, want to use 2 Peerless HDS tweeters

I thought a tranny amp was a transformer output amp, so a tube?
but now i assume it is not.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #36 on:** 6 Jan 2009, 02:03 pm »

By tranny amp, I think he is referring to a transister amp, or Solid State for bass duties.

I use a dedicated sub amp for my 12's, and it really lets the b200 Visatons do their thing above 100Hz. I run 3wpc single ended EL84 amps, and never need more volume, and the 12's are sharing about 200w...

panomaniac · « **Reply #37 on:** 6 Jan 2009, 04:53 pm »

Hey Zero One.

Nice to know someone is using the 10" P.Audio. Sounds like it's working well for you.
My experience with the big 18" P.Audio coax is good. You're right about the dynamics!

Thanks for your post - very interesting!

kyrill · « **Reply #38 on:** 7 Jan 2009, 10:58 pm »

well
i put the Saba Greentones in their place and listened (via SB3 full Digital mod by Wayne plus his 3.3V mod, also Pat's s/pdif mod and powered by Payl Hynes pws + DEQX 3 and modded JAdis amps) the Saba's played from 125hz up to 2khz.

My first listening was Caroline Herring's Lantana CD and I was floored. The pace and rythm, the tone was so much better than the Focal Audiom 6wm. i really really enjoyed the music as a whole, i snapped my fingers, tapped with my toes
The magic is it musicality. It sounds tube like
than an hr later after more different numbers the lack of clarity started to bother me. It is not a transparent driver.

after 3 hrs listening i made the decision, no this is not my kind of driver. It makes wonderful music, but it does not resemble at all the reality of a live audition. layers of depth are missing, sharp focus is gone
with the 6WM i could hear singers sing 2x as a back voice behind their up front voice, with the Saba it became one voice

it is as if the damping of the driver is very low, too much ringing

A pity. But I can truly understand its magic. It sounds so refreshingly un-hifi, the magic is its tone and for not so transparent systems it would make a wonderful OB set up. It is also a very forgiving LS. I listened to older cd's which did have not much transparency to begin with and which i previously avoided with my former setup ( also in non OB set up) Now i could listen 3 numbers in a row, never happened before.

SO what now?

Danny from Gr-Research is very enthusiastic for the Paudio BM12-CXA.( http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=61023.0) But i hesitate for such a big speaker to do the mid range. I really like drivers which stop when the music signal stop. the lighter the driver the more this happens ( with a good strong magnet) So this explains my wish for an 8 inch driver

Shall i go for the SN-8MB from Paudio's new SN II series? http://www.paudiothailand.com/
I cannot listen beforehand.

ttan98 · « **Reply #39 on:** 8 Jan 2009, 01:51 am »

Just a note to be aware, P-Audio coaxial uses titanium diaghram, it tends to sound gritty if the x-over and equalization(if necessary)is not designed properly. I personally prefer non-titanium diaghram, eg, mylar, aluminium, etc.