USB cable

6rs · « **on:** 26 Oct 2008, 09:49 am »

I wonder, does the USB cable have any effect on sound? For example, is it worth using somewhat better quality cables? What is the maximal length? The issue seems controversial - as usual on one side are the audiophiles that claim to hear differences (Most of the time, I would count myself to this fraction). On the other sides are the supposedly technically informed that feel pity or even despise for those who imagine to hear something despite the lack of sound technical explanations.
What are your experiences?
Thanks a lot, Bruno

Actually, shortly after posting I found a useful thread that deals with the subject:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59448.0

kitten · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 01:21 pm »

Here's another interesting thread:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/node/209

I've not tried anything other that Vinnie's included cable myself...

6rs · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 06:13 pm »

Thanks for the link. I would like to check for myself whether USB cables could affect sound.
Ideally, I would like to make my own cable. However, I do not know what the important design principles would be. Alternatively, I could buy one, however, there is still too little choice. "Audiophile" USB cables seem to represents a new market niche will be filled by more manufacturers soon.

texendo · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 06:52 pm »

I tried different USB cables on a previous USB DAC (battery and cap modified Griffin USB DAC from Vinnie a couple years ago). These were simply no-name USBs that I had lying around from different computer hardware. They definitely sounded different. One was a little darker with more of meaty, punchy sound, while the other was a bit thinner sounding but had more sparkle. Mind you, these weren't "audiophile" cables but rather <$10 jobs. Was one better? To my tastes, yes, but they definitely made a difference.

satfrat · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 07:02 pm »

6rs,,, it's a definte yes depending on the USB cable. Some make a little difference, others can transform your system, and I'm making this statement strictly on what I've found using 3 different USB cables in my system. I am presently auditioning Locus Design's Axis USB cable and I don't see any way I can part with it after witnessing what this single cable has done for my Trend's UD-10.1 USB transport. I've also heard god things about Ridge Street Audio Design's USB cable.

I was on the fence also after replacing a Belkin Gold for a Kimber USB cable and didn't really notice any startling improvement. That has all changed for me within the last week as the Axis cable gets some miles on it. You will pay thru the a$$ for this cable but if you're not willing to make the sacrifice, whatevcer you do don't audition it. I say this with total honesty simply from what I've witnessed this last weekend from a simple Trend's unit. Those with better USB transporters/DAC's I would imagine will even be more impressed from the Axis. I plan on posting a thread on this subject after the Axis is totally broken in and I've done comparisons with the other cables. But I know my system pretty well and I'm doing things with it now in the higher volume region that would have been unbearable last week. For me, in my system, to say the Locus Design Axis USB cable has transformed my system would not be an understatement,, just pretty much dead on.

Cheers,
Robin

6rs · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 07:39 pm »

Thanks for your insights!

If I remember and understood correctly, the Isabella would require only the two signal lines. Could one just leave the lines providing voltage and ground unconnected? Or would one connect the mass to the shield? If yes: on both sides, or just one one side (but which)?

As the connectors are dirt cheap, one could buy the fanciest cryoed silk whatever silver wires and still stay under 200$ for a home-made design.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 02:19 am »

Quote from: 6rs on 26 Oct 2008, 07:39 pm

Thanks for your insights!

If I remember and understood correctly, the Isabella would require only the two signal lines. Could one just leave the lines providing voltage and ground unconnected? Or would one connect the mass to the shield? If yes: on both sides, or just one one side (but which)?

As the connectors are dirt cheap, one could buy the fanciest cryoed silk whatever silver wires and still stay under 200$ for a home-made design.

I think the signal wires are likely twisted and shielded, probably best to experiment with grounding the shield, also you might want to experiment with ferrite beads, the Kimber has them on both ends. I'd guess the USB power wire need not be used at all.

I have some 28g mil spec wire... silver plated copper w/ teflon, in a twisted pair with shielding and a teflon outer jacket... this would probably work well and is very inexpensive if you can find it online. I just worry that all the usb plug ends currently available are going to be junk.

cryoparts · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 02:35 am »

Thanks, check is in the mail!

Peace,

Lee

Quote from: satfrat on 26 Oct 2008, 07:02 pm

6rs,,, it's a definte yes depending on the USB cable. Some make a little difference, others can transform your system, and I'm making this statement strictly on what I've found using 3 different USB cables in my system. I am presently auditioning Locus Design's Axis USB cable and I don't see any way I can part with it after witnessing what this single cable has done for my Trend's UD-10.1 USB transport. I've also heard god things about Ridge Street Audio Design's USB cable.

I was on the fence also after replacing a Belkin Gold for a Kimber USB cable and didn't really notice any startling improvement. That has all changed for me within the last week as the Axis cable gets some miles on it. You will pay thru the a$$ for this cable but if you're not willing to make the sacrifice, whatevcer you do don't audition it. I say this with total honesty simply from what I've witnessed this last weekend from a simple Trend's unit. Those with better USB transporters/DAC's I would imagine will even be more impressed from the Axis. I plan on posting a thread on this subject after the Axis is totally broken in and I've done comparisons with the other cables. But I know my system pretty well and I'm doing things with it now in the higher volume region that would have been unbearable last week. For me, in my system, to say the Locus Design Axis USB cable has transformed my system would not be an understatement,, just pretty much dead on.

Cheers,
Robin

jrebman · « **Reply #8 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 04:05 pm »

Robin,

I just got one of Lee's Polestar USB cables to use with my Isabellina, and as soon as I get this laptop setup I plan to give it a try. Good to hear such nice things about it's bigger brother.

I will say that this Polestar cable is exquisitely built and just oozes quality when you hold it in your hand. If it sounds half as good as it feels, it should be killer.

-- Jim

Eadron · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Oct 2008, 01:45 pm »

Hi all,

been playing with Lee's Cryo-Parts USB cable for a week now and there is no doubt that it has brought good things to my system: more tonality, more beefier sound, more naturalness, more colour. It did remove digititus definitely, if there was some, especially at the upper end of freguency spectrum. I'd say it cleaned up the signal substantially

. Now I wonder how good an USB cable might Lee's Axis be? Thanks, Lee!

Jouni

cryoparts · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Oct 2008, 07:57 pm »

Vinnie, I hope it is OK that I comment here. If no, feel free to move the thread.

Quote from: Eadron on 29 Oct 2008, 01:45 pm

Hi all,

been playing with Lee's Cryo-Parts USB cable for a week now and there is no doubt that it has brought good things to my system: more tonality, more beefier sound, more naturalness, more colour. It did remove digititus definitely, if there was some, especially at the upper end of freguency spectrum. I'd say it cleaned up the signal substantially .

Thank you for the kind words! Enjoy!

Quote from: Eadron on 29 Oct 2008, 01:45 pm

Now I wonder how good an USB cable might Lee's Axis be? Thanks, Lee!

Jouni

Don't try it, you'll want it!

Peace,

Lee

6rs · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Oct 2008, 08:16 pm »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 27 Oct 2008, 02:19 am

I think the signal wires are likely twisted and shielded, probably best to experiment with grounding the shield, also you might want to experiment with ferrite beads, the Kimber has them on both ends. I'd guess the USB power wire need not be used at all.

I have some 28g mil spec wire... silver plated copper w/ teflon, in a twisted pair with shielding and a teflon outer jacket... this would probably work well and is very inexpensive if you can find it online. I just worry that all the usb plug ends currently available are going to be junk.

I'll give DIY a try. Ordered some 26 gauge Ag/Au wire, silk sleeves, a cotton core, and carbon shielding. As no power is needed for the Isabellina in the Isabella, shielding seems less of an issue.

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Oct 2008, 12:57 am »

Hi Lee,

No problem.

Hi 6rs,

You still need to wire the 5V and GND lines of the USB cable. The USB receiver chip still needs the 5V from the computer - only for the Host pin so it knows to wake up and start looking for the signal transfer to/from the computer. Otherwise, it will not see the Isabellina. The actual power for the USB receiver chip comes from linear regulated battery power. This is why you must turn ON the Isbella/Isabellina for the computer to see it. However, do you not need the shield (but it is good for noise rejection).

Also, BE CAREFUL with DIY'ing the USB cable - the USB receiver chip is sensitive and you want to make sure everything is connected properly - or damage can easily happen. It is also recommended that you use USB 2.0 (Hi Speed) cables for highest bandwidth, and make sure any DIY cables are constructed to these specifications. Again - be careful! It is not worth damaging your dac to try to hear differences between stock and DIY USB cables.

Finally - try to avoid static charge and touching the other end of the USB cable when it is plugged into the dac. Again, it is sensitive and it is best to first unplug the cable from the dac, and then from the computer (if you are going to take it out of the system). You also should connect the cable with the computer and dac powered off. Then first boot the computer, and then turn ON the dac. Do the opposite for powering down. Again, this is recommended to avoid any trouble. This is not a "hot swap" device like a USB flash drive or something like that - this is a "delicate instrument" and care must be taken.

Hope this helps

Best regards,

Vinnie

satfrat · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Oct 2008, 01:22 am »

Quote from: jrebman on 27 Oct 2008, 04:05 pm

Robin,

I just got one of Lee's Polestar USB cables to use with my Isabellina, and as soon as I get this laptop setup I plan to give it a try. Good to hear such nice things about it's bigger brother.

I will say that this Polestar cable is exquisitely built and just oozes quality when you hold it in your hand. If it sounds half as good as it feels, it should be killer.

-- Jim

Jim,I'm anxiously awaiting your thoughts on the Polestar cable. It's like 1/2 the cost of the Axis and I thought about trying that one out 1st but I heard so little difference between the Kimber and Belkin Gold plus the talk on Cryoparts entry level USB cable wasn't sounding all that great either. Considering Locus Design and Cryoparts are both Lee making these cables by hand, I wanted the best Lee had to offer. I am estatic I did,

Therefore I'll echo Lee's advise, don't try the Axis in your system unless you're willing to buy it. The Axis is that good

(IMHO). aa

Cheers,
Robin

satfrat · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Oct 2008, 01:24 am »

Quote from: Eadron on 29 Oct 2008, 01:45 pm

Hi all,

been playing with Lee's Cryo-Parts USB cable for a week now and there is no doubt that it has brought good things to my system: more tonality, more beefier sound, more naturalness, more colour. It did remove digititus definitely, if there was some, especially at the upper end of freguency spectrum. I'd say it cleaned up the signal substantially . Now I wonder how good an USB cable might Lee's Axis be? Thanks, Lee!

Jouni

Hi Jouni, simply read my last post so I won't have a duplicate post here.

Cheers,
Robin

6rs · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Oct 2008, 09:54 am »

Quote from: Vinnie R. on 30 Oct 2008, 12:57 am

Hi 6rs,

You still need to wire the 5V and GND lines of the USB cable. The USB receiver chip still needs the 5V from the computer - only for the Host pin so it knows to wake up and start looking for the signal transfer to/from the computer. Otherwise, it will not see the Isabellina. The actual power for the USB receiver chip comes from linear regulated battery power. This is why you must turn ON the Isbella/Isabellina for the computer to see it. However, do you not need the shield (but it is good for noise rejection).

Also, BE CAREFUL with DIY'ing the USB cable - the USB receiver chip is sensitive and you want to make sure everything is connected properly - or damage can easily happen. It is also recommended that you use USB 2.0 (Hi Speed) cables for highest bandwidth, and make sure any DIY cables are constructed to these specifications. Again - be careful! It is not worth damaging your dac to try to hear differences between stock and DIY USB cables.

Finally - try to avoid static charge and touching the other end of the USB cable when it is plugged into the dac. Again, it is sensitive and it is best to first unplug the cable from the dac, and then from the computer (if you are going to take it out of the system). You also should connect the cable with the computer and dac powered off. Then first boot the computer, and then turn ON the dac. Do the opposite for powering down. Again, this is recommended to avoid any trouble. This is not a "hot swap" device like a USB flash drive or something like that - this is a "delicate instrument" and care must be taken.

Hope this helps

Best regards,

Vinnie

Thank you very much for this information. Honestly, I was always hot-plugging the USB cable to the computer to date. I will refrain from doing so now.
Sometimes, my enthusiasm is greater than my knowledge - so I appreciate your comments. Considering all, it might be better to buy a pre-configured cable.

Bruno

cryoparts · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Nov 2008, 10:58 pm »

Quote from: Vinnie R. on 30 Oct 2008, 12:57 am

Also, BE CAREFUL with DIY'ing the USB cable - the USB receiver chip is sensitive and you want to make sure everything is connected properly - or damage can easily happen. It is also recommended that you use USB 2.0 (Hi Speed) cables for highest bandwidth, and make sure any DIY cables are constructed to these specifications. Again - be careful! It is not worth damaging your dac to try to hear differences between stock and DIY USB cables.

X2! Be careful if DIY'ing a USB cable.

Peace,

Lee

cryoparts · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Nov 2008, 11:43 pm »

Quote from: satfrat on 30 Oct 2008, 01:22 am

Jim,I'm anxiously awaiting your thoughts on the Polestar cable. It's like 1/2 the cost of the Axis and I thought about trying that one out 1st but I heard so little difference between the Kimber and Belkin Gold plus the talk on Cryoparts entry level USB cable wasn't sounding all that great either. Considering Locus Design and Cryoparts are both Lee making these cables by hand, I wanted the best Lee had to offer. I am estatic I did, Therefore I'll echo Lee's advise, don't try the Axis in your system unless you're willing to buy it. The Axis is that good (IMHO). aa
Cheers,
Robin

FYI--The CryoParts cable uses a cryo'd well made generic USB 2.0 cable as the core. I add carbon shielding, ERS, damp the ends and add a couple of tricks to it, but it does not use my custom core that the Axis and Polestar use. The CryoParts cable is designed to be a good performing, *inexpensive* cable, which I think it is, but it doesn't even compare to my Locus Design USB cables.

Of course all comments above are IMHO, IMO, IME, FWIW, ABC-123, etc...

Peace,

Lee

veloaudio · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Mar 2009, 10:06 pm »

up from page 2....

Anyone else have comments on a USB cables you have tried with your Isabellina?

kitten · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 Mar 2009, 03:26 am »

It seems an assumption that these cables will sound relatively better with better DACs. I'm not so sure. Given one of the main claims about the Axis is its separation of the data and voltage lines - well, the Isabellina DAC supplies its own voltage.

I'd be interested as well to hear whether anyone's actually used the Axis with Isebell(in)a and what the impressions are.

I'd give it a try myself but I can't find any indication of a no-questions return policy on the web site for the USB cables.

And for those who think the Axis is expensive, I see the latest cable, Nucleus, is twice as much again.