[WGH]

It's too soon to comment on the change in sound and I just upgraded my amp and pre-amp a week ago so pretty much all proclamations of better sound don't mean a thing, but after installing the FT-3 caps the Cornet2 still works and sounds great, maybe better than great. The FT-3's certainly did no harm.

I have the Lansing chassis so adding 6 big Russian teflons was an interesting design challenge. I by-passed C208, C206, and C200, the biggest change was the C208 but following Tubes suggestion I did the B+ supply too.

Not wanting to drill into the circuit board for hold downs, see straps outside the case, or glue everything together, I came up with wood brackets that hold the caps securely when the bottom plate is installed. The bottom has been drilled for new screws that screw into the blocks locking everything in place.

Notice the caps have been shrink wrapped and also the soldered ends have heat shrink tubing so if they shift and touch the case nothing bad happens.

Here are some photos for your amusement.







Wayne

[tubesforever]

Wayne, the support blocks are nothing less than perfect!

I did not know if you could easily run these teflons on a half rack lansing case all from the component side of the board.  Some have soldered one side of the caps on the top surface and the others from the component side.   Your solution makes it look like children's play.  I am super impressed.

Let these cook for at least 25 hours and play them hard during this time.  The teflons will go from dynamic to constricted, then distorted, and finally after 25 hours or so you figure someone stole them from the casework.

After break in these teflons just step out of the way and the dynamics and highs sound like you just spent 6k dollars on your phono stage.

Here is a picture of the 0.47uf cap paralleled to a Mundorf SIO .47 uf cap.



While just a little short of 1.0 uf value this sounds very promising at this time.  Break in has not completed yet.  All I can tell you is that percussion is percussive and my apartment is shaking.

Thanks for the early comments!  I look forward to your full write up when you feel these things have settled in. 

Cheers!

[PatOMalley]

Those teflon's @ .1 do take over the mids. Very impressive at first. More dynamics, plenty of smooth detail. What went missing is the nice mids on the Jupiter caps. In came slick smooth fast detail, out went a little gritty grab-to. Spacial hi-fi increased but that visceral presence dropped back a bit. SO, I am dropping to .015 for the teflons as soon as they arrive which will return the pricey mids that I miss but I hope to retain that 'air' thing and well as extend dynamics by reaching down into the upper mids at least by a small bit. Tedious this stuff is. It is like the pea under the mattress.

I figure I paid enough for the sound of those beeswax caps; I want to hear them!

Now if you are going to bypass with the teflons @ .1uF you might as well get an inexpensive cap for the 1uF value. Obbligato's might be the best bang for the buck in that case, but then again the Obbligatos' are worthy. Rats. Aha! Bypass the Russian K40's with the Teflon and you have probably the most bang for buck possible. That would be two .47uF PIOs and one .1uF Teflon. What a picture that would make.

[WGH]

Tubes - looks like if you keep adding/changing caps you won't have a single cap attached to the main board. 

Last night I was still in the dynamic stage and loving it. Right now I have the Hagtech FryKleaner with iRIAA filter combo hooked up so hopefully I won't have to listen through the constricted and distorted stage.

Wayne

[flocchini]

Guys:

Help me out 
I remember reading that paralleling caps of similar values smears the sound. Comments  please. (Maybe it is just my memory.)

Also I think if you just lower the output cap it would raise the cutoff frequency. Would a .47 Teflon be OK? or at least worth the experiment?

Thanks in advance

Bob

[WGH]

flocchini - We are by-passing a 1uF cap with a .1uF cap, one tenth the value.

Do you mean replace the 1uF with a .47uF cap? Only JH knows that answer.

Wayne

[PatOMalley]

I removed the teflon capacitors from the =>Clarinet<= and the Jupiter caps are back in all their full midrange pomp. So I don't know yet what will happen with my Cornet2 and if the .1 teflon in that position works better but just removing it makes an improvement. I can say that the warm plop or boink of electric guitar without the teflon has more of that phat personality. Tap tap on damped cymbal is dryer and the weenie bells I heard earlier are much fainter.

.1uF is the midrange.
.001 is the 'supertweeter' range.
maybe the .015 will make it to the right top spot.
It did on the CDP.

How can you guys give up what must be rich mids on those Mundorf's?

[WGH]

How can you guys give up what must be rich mids on those Mundorf's?

I'm still doing the FryKleaner burn-in so the jury is still out in my case. Looking forward to your thoughts on the .015uF caps.

I have never heard a $$$$ phono pre-amp, so don't know if the phat sound is accurate or just pleasurable. My previous Anthem gear was definitely voiced to the warm side and everything was phat. With the AVA Insight amp and pre-amp things are a little leaner and I hear more what is going on. Good to know that I can change the Cornet2 back anytime I want to.

Maybe tubes will comment on the mid-range tonality of the other phono pre-amps he compared the Cornet2 to.

[dweekie]

Have you guys tried bypasses without the the main cap?  Many times, you will be surprised at how much you hear from a 0.01uf cap and even smaller ones.  Although not perfect, testing bypasses by themselves will give an audible measurement of what frequencies they are capable of passing.  It was an interesting experience for me, especially after reading about how such small caps affect only the smallest audible range.  Bypasses are very difficult to get a handle of, and the same values do not work across caps.  I wouldn't be surprised if 0.1uf works on the Mundorfs but not the Jupiters, and many even abhor any bypasses at all.  But since I haven't tried bypasses on either cap, I wouldn't know  :duh:

[PatOMalley]

WGH, who knows what accurate? Even the master tape is a step away replica. And what if this "accurate" was not pleasurable? I have RCA 12AU7s and Matsushita rectifier. Warm stuff.

dweekie, Just heard a story of a person who bypasses three caps from the same manufacturer but at different values. Must be a homogeneous coupling.  But starting with a 1uF that has the mids I like I only have one value left to change, the .01uF. I have read of going to .001 but that is dogwhistle time.

On the CDP I have 4.7uF + .1uF + .01uF. That seems to blend without seams and the topend is all tinkly air with the mids nice and phat. The bass is deep and controlled using that 4.7uF; I wonder can we add a 4.7uF to the output on the Clarinet?

[flocchini]

I was thinking more about using 2-.47 caps or 2 -.22 caps.

I did find one reference from Jim in response to using a 1 microF cap or 2 - .47 microF caps



hagtech
Facilitator

Posts: 1623




     
   
Cornet2 cap tweak. Help
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2005, 06:16:56 pm »
Quote
I'd go with just one of them.  As a coupling cap, 0.47uF is usually large enough.  Parallel caps of similar size or type can cause smearing of the sound.

jh
 Logged
Jim Hagerman
Hagerman Technology LLC - "making audio fun again"

I may have to try the .47 experiment

Best

Bob

[WGH]

Pat - I wasn't thinking about getting into a discussion about what is "accurate sound", a bad choice of phrasing on my part. I was thinking along the line that as the price increased into the mega-buck range the sound of the pre-amps would head toward neutral with small nuanced differences. But I could be wrong.

My speakers try to go to the dark side if I let them so the by-pass caps are an interesting change (definitely not a nuanced difference). I use a GE branded CBS 12AU7A and a CBS 5V4GA, which if I remember correctly gives more bass and a phat sound than any other combination I tried on my limited budget.

The cartridge I use is a Goldring 1042, it has thunderous bass when the record has it, a nice midrange, tinkly highs, and never mistracks in a low mass tonearm. The Goldring has a well balanced sound unlike the Alchemist that preceded it, which sounded tipped up no matter what I did.

Usually my pre-amps tone controls are by-passed and out of the circuit, but if an album sounds screechy or has anemic bass then I have no problem "fixing" the problem, I'm no purest.

Wayne

[flocchini]

My apologies for not being clear on my first post in this thread.

Currently in my Castanet I use  3.0 micro F Dynamicaps in the output. I bypass these with .1 micro F FT3s. I will experiment with a .47 micro F. In the B+ I use the stock cap with a .1 micro F cap.

In my Chime(octal) I have 1 micro F Cardas caps bypassed with .1 micro F FT3s. In the B+ I use Auricaps and .1 micro F FT3s.

In the Cornet2 (octal) 1 micro F Cardas with .1 micro F FT3s. Bypass as in the Chime.

I plan to change the .1 FT3 on the Chime output to .22 and then .47 (thanks Tubes)

On the Cornet2 I may try just a .47 FT3 as the output. My question was driven by the thought of using a .47 PIO and a .47 FT3. I probably won't be able to even hear smearing but I will do the experiments and report back.

Best and thanks

[tubesforever]

I guess I should try to be both direct and diplomatic.  If politician's can do it so can I. 

First, I know how Pat's speakers sound.  They are on the bright side of neutral.  Midrange is good but is recessed vs the midbass and highs.  This invites you to crank up the volume to get the vocals just right.  Then the bass and highs are hammering away.  This makes for a very engaging and exciting presentation.  The bass drivers are very fast and articulate and get down to 25hz or so.  The speakers are an easy load for any amp.  They are fairly efficient. 

BTW I could easily live with Pat's speakers.  They do nearly everything well plus they are expressive and dramatic. 

If I were to build my Hagerman's to match up to these speakers I would select pieces that eccentuate the vocals and have a deep round substantial bass.  This way I could turn them up without the tweeters frying my brain. 

The Jupiters are a great match up for his speaker.  Vocals are the very best I have heard with the Jupiters.  If you love vocals these things perform 10/10.  Low bass is outstanding and pleasantly round and plump like bass sounds in a natural setting. 

So the Jupiters are basically a dream come true for his speakers.  That is a good thing and confirms my opinion that system matching is paramount to enjoying your music to the fullest.

My Mundorf silver in oil caps have a wider and taller soundstage than the Jupiters.  They are much quieter.  In fact the DCR of the Mundorf caps is far quieter than other capacitors.  Sound comes from a blacker background.  The Mundorfs are more dynamic.  With teflons added you get even greater dynamics and a clearer high end.

With the Jupiters and teflons I was not hearing the same level of dynamics and that is why I am back to SIO this week.  I was also hearing a lot less width and height to the sound field.  The Jupiters were sounding more compressed and the highs were disappointing.

My next project is to use the Jupiter .62uf in parallel with the .47 teflon caps.  My hope is that the teflons will give me the dynamics and sound field I was missing with the 1.0/0.10 mix I had before.  If so I will have a perfect combination for my system.

For those wondering about smearing I will answer that in a different post.  This is a lot more difficult to discuss than I have time to apply to the topic at this time.

[PatOMalley]

Wait just a second Tubey-wan,

Even though the tweeters on the Paradigm's resolve horns so nice they are not what I would call a topended speaker. They have midrange focus and bass bass bass. But when you do add things like silver, etc it is easily caught and displayed by the Paradigms. They have impact presence far beyond imaging. They mostly resolve within the speakers extending outward only a foot or two at best. The teflons increase this aspect but the room I am in is far not the best.

No, it is the midrange of the teflons I don't care for. It is wide, high, dynamic, slick and smooth, detailed. But far thinner than the Jupiters, and I suppose the Mundorf's as well. I am going to put the Mundorf's in the Cornet2 un-by-passed. But I will bypass the Clarinet's Jupiters with .015 just to see if I can increase air by a few degrees. If it robs the mids again I will remove them.

It -is- a matter of taste I guess, but for me a full rich midrange is preferable to speed. Know that the topend never became shrill and I could increase volume with the FT-3. Actually increasing volume with the FT-3's was some fun as it really rips them out for the ride. But drop back and as the days go by "there is no love." I started to get like "ah, who cares" a bit. So back in went the Jupiter's and KayBang, the nuzzling midrange, the love baby, back with a rippling swinging ass.

That's why they make salt AND pepper.

Previously I had a c-j PV10BL that responded to cap changes resentfully but it did respond. The Clarinet changes it's colors quickly when changing caps. Dramatically so. You can really tune the preamp into what you want. It is nice to have that versatility. Hooray for Hagtech.

My notebook says that .1uF is the home of the midrange so only phat lives there. 1uF is bass foundry and using 4.7uF allows for bass that goes all the way down to hell. .015 is topend parking lot. .001 is where the dog whistles.
Finally, it may be that caps may fulfill these different jobs best in their category. Meaning foil for the bass, PIO or beeswax for the mids, and teflon for the topend.

Hay, what happened to all the Koolaid? It's all gone!

[tubesforever]

Pat,

It sounds like you and I are in full agreement.  The Jupiters are king in your system.  They compliment your speakers, your room and possibly other aspects of your system we have not discussed.

For instance we also have to look at amplifiers and cables.  In Indagrove's system up in Portland, my Bedini amp was warm and tube like while his McCormack DNA 0.5 amp was more forward and detailed. 

So teflons might make his system sound overly thin as well.   With my Bedini amps the teflons can do their magic without altering the overall sound qualities of the midrange. 

System matching is everything.

I like the Jupiters a great deal.  So by taking the uf down to .62 and adding the .47 teflon I might be able to get the dynamics I am after and the vocals and bass that the Jupiters do so well.

Don't over read the 0.10uf teflon as being a midrange and highs filter.  It is not.  It takes the 1.0 uf value of the final signal cap and raises it to 1.1 which would be within the +/- 10% value for that position. 

I am eager to hear your report about the sound of the 0.015 FT-1 caps.  I hope they will allow the Jupiter magic and just give you a little more air in the highs. 

[tubesforever]

Bob asked about paralleled caps smearing details and such....

Here is my take on things.  Every capacitor acts both electronically to balance a circuit design and it delivers sonic qualities as an audio filter of sorts. 

If you take a film cap of .47 and mix it with another of the same type and value as long as the leads are the same length you should be able to hear music clearly.

If you mix a .47 teflon with a .47 PIO or film cap you are likely to have things work out as well.  Mostly because the teflon is going to disappear sonically.

When I have mixed a teflon, a film and a PIO I have had really strange reverb effects.  What is happening is that you are overlaying the sonic filter of each cap one on top of the other.  In the end the sounds do not homogenize, they simply stand out.

I try whenever possible to have slightly different values between caps, and only mix caps when I feel it will not give me that reverb tank effect you hear on an electric guitar.  Anyone here who has played a guitar with a reverb tank knows exactly what I am saying! 

I think it is best to try to bypass with a cap that is 1/10th the value of the main cap.  That is why mixing a 1.0 dynamicap with a 0.10 teflon seems to just add the dynamics and clarity without creating a bunch of reverb. 

Just my 2 cents.  I suspect this is mostly going to be a try it to see how it sounds type of affair.  I doubt any one of us will know how teflons will sound in our systems until we actually strap them in and play them a while.

Luckily at this price, if you hate the teflons you can rest assured you only spent what you would on a night out on the town.

I really look forward to having a lot of feedback from a wide variety of folks.  As we build up more and more data we can find better ways to recommend passive parts that work in similar systems.

Cheers!

[BobM]

I used these Russian .1uF teflons as bypasses to the coupling caps on my Hagerman Trumpet. Pure magic there. A nice bit of air and space was found.

I also put them on my speaker tweeter crossover as bypasses to some Sonicap Gen I's. Very nice there for sure. But when I used them as bypasses in the crossover for the mid/bass it was no good at all. Lots of detail and speed, but I lost that midrange magic and warmth that was there before. Way too forward sounding too. So out they came and a Sonicap Gen II went back in as bypass for the mid/bass. Beautiful again.

I've used V-cap teflon/oils and Sonicap Platinums as input and output coupling caps in my preamp with great results. 200 hours of break in for those, for sure, but well worth it.

Enjoy,
Bob

[tubesforever]

Bob thanks for the information.  I am planning on using the 0.10uf 600v caps to bypass my tweeter caps as well--mainly based on your feedback on this topic.

I would love to hear the Sonicap Platinums some day.  I have heard the Gen I on a friend's Cornet 2 and it sounded superb. 

Pat!  I have an idea.  We need an EE to weigh in on this  (Jim....others.....).

Use a small hidden switch so you can move the FT-3 teflons in or out of the coupling cap.   DPDT would allow you to do this with one switch.   

OK Pat figures I am absolutely certifiable....he could be right about that .

Perhaps an EE could tell me if a switched cap where the switch is on the output side of the coupling cap would fill and store energy when switched off?  It would be great if you didn't have to "burn them in" every time you wanted to kick them over.

[flocchini]

Jim:

Thanks for the info on smearing. When the .47s arrive I plan to bypass my 3 micro F Dynamicaps in my Castanet with them.

I may also try this with the 1 micro F cardas caps in the Chime. I think a lower frequency cutoff will be OK.

I await the results of your Juppiter/.47 experiment. Other options may be the Sonicaps or the Mundorfs. Experiments this winter.

Thanks all

Bob