[Marcos]

I was recently bitten by the single-driver bug, to the point where I purchased a pair of Fritz 6" and a pair of his 4.5" Fostex speakers.  I guess it's a matter of how each work in the room, but I think I prefer the 4.5" drivers.  The sound seems more balanced and sweeter, although I haven't done extensive A/Bs.  I'm amazed at the balanced sound these little speakers put out.

In general, does the single-driver crowd prefer 4.5" or 6" speakers?  What are the pros and cons?  Thanks.

[chrisby]

loaded question, dude   

FWIW, count me in the "less than 6 can still get the job done" camp  (unless there's another reason my wife of 35yrs hasn't kicked me out yet?)

Yes, there is something magical about the 4.5" Fostex drivers - but don't overlook synergy with the amp and room - I think even a bigger factor at this class of driver than with the "big-boy" 6" & 8"s.   

I'm currently enjoying the heck out of a pair of EnABLed F120As in a stand mount vented box, with 300B SE, in a pretty teeny room (approx 220 ft^2).   

[JLM]

Several ways to look at this question, so I see no easy answer. 

Ed Schilling from The Horn fame has a compelling argument on his site for 4 inchers. 

But the physics involved say the 4 incher have a hard time generating much deep bass regardless of cabinet design, etc.

The smaller drivers don't have whizzers.  (This topic could generate a whole series of threads by itself.)  Again, those same physics say that a small whizzer shouldn't "beam" high frequencies as much as 4 inch driver without a whizzer. 

Fostex also has a F120A driver that goes deeper, less efficient, and uses an AlNiCo magnet but doesn't offer anything like it in a 6 or 6.5 inch size.  So this rather unique driver throws a hard curveball into this discussion.

6 inch drivers usually have whizzer cones, but roughly double Sd (surface area) to push more/deeper bass.  Physics (and specifications) show all else being equal that larger drivers are more efficient as well.

Fostex makes multiple drivers of the same size to suit different applications and taste.  If you're in a small room/setting or will be using a subwoofer a 4 inch driver could be ideal.  OTOH if your interest is primarily listening to small ensembles, a 6 inch could make a lot of sense.

So it often boils down to expectations.  Single drivers offer many advantages, but so far  there is no perfect speaker.  Expectations, application, and tastes are the keys to single driver bliss. 

[floobydust]

 As Jim and Chris pointed out... no easy answer. In general I tend to think even the best Fullrange driver will require additional support on the (lower) last octave or two, depending on personal tastes, musical preferences, etc. For me, I'd rather avoid all crossovers and multi-driver issues from the higher octaves and working down to what is reasonable based on the driver size.

 It's no secret that of all the Fostex drivers I've played around with, the F120A is my favorite. I was tempted to use a T90A with a 12-15KHz 6dB/octave crossover to "fill in" the last upper octaves (according to the frequency plot provided by Fostex). Now that I've listened to them a fair amount, I'm no longer inclined to do so. But.... (there's always one of these) being a smallish driver you're not going to get much below 50Hz from it.... maybe down to 45Hz but beyond that it's going to lose ground quickly.

 If you can live within these boundaries then it's one heck of a price performer... even if you can't you can augment the last octave with a good sub-woofer setup. IMHO, there's only two significant drawbacks with the F120A:

1- Sensitivity. At 89dB/Watt/1m you'll need more power than some of the similar-sized FE series, rated ~95dB/Watt/1m.

2- Maximum SPL. Being a small driver rated at 10 watts, you're not going to get high SPLs from it.

 Still, a really good SET amplifier will make them shine. I'm using a 2-watt 45 SET which is wonderful, but has it's (upper SPL) limits.

 Ideally, I think Chris has a nice setup using a 300B design which should easily deliver 8-10 watts.

 Regards, KM

[Bob_Brines]

First, right off of the bat -- YMMV.

Now. I have not found a 4" full-range speaker that does convincing bass any anything but VERY polite SPL. I personally personally wouldn't use a 4" driver alone for anything stronger that "a girl and a guitar". I would use a 4" driver as a mid-tweeter crossed over to a 10" or 12" driver in the 300Hz range. That said there are a lot of guys that are tickled pink with 4", even 3" single driver speakers.

I have built successful 6" single driver speakers. Moderately good bass to 40 Hz. Pretty good top end if not too far off axis. You can actually get 80dB at a reasonable distance.

I like 8" drivers. Solid bass into the 30's. Actually have some grunt in the upper bass that you need for rock. Top end is often weak. Many, at least those guys who haven't destroyed their ears at rock concerts, add tweeters rolled in above 6kHz. I consider this the sweet spot and all of my serious listening on a pair of 8"ers.

One man's opinion.

Bob

[Mr Content]

Size of room,........music played...........nearfield or not............its almost like  "how long is a piece of string" Your own personal tastes will in the end answer the question. I like the 4" driver, very intimite, very imeddiate, but for me the 6 " adds some flesh to the mix, as well as extra dynamics, but I use an 8" anyway, and I like it very much. Much more than the 4, or 6' drivers.

Mr C

[DaveC113]

First, right off of the bat -- YMMV.

Now. I have not found a 4" full-range speaker that does convincing bass any anything but VERY polite SPL. I personally personally wouldn't use a 4" driver alone for anything stronger that "a girl and a guitar". I would use a 4" driver as a mid-tweeter crossed over to a 10" or 12" driver in the 300Hz range. That said there are a lot of guys that are tickled pink with 4", even 3" single driver speakers.

I have built successful 6" single driver speakers. Moderately good bass to 40 Hz. Pretty good top end if not too far off axis. You can actually get 80dB at a reasonable distance.

I like 8" drivers. Solid bass into the 30's. Actually have some grunt in the upper bass that you need for rock. Top end is often weak. Many, at least those guys who haven't destroyed their ears at rock concerts, add tweeters rolled in above 6kHz. I consider this the sweet spot and all of my serious listening on a pair of 8"ers.

One man's opinion.

Bob

80 dB? I've measured 102 dB peaks (Dolby C) at 6' from my Omega XRS (4" bass reflex), the Horns can play significantly louder still.... The XRS also play down to 40 Hz with very good quality bass. That said, they're not going to rock the neighborhood, and I do use a sub x-overed at around 50 Hz... but they will play far more than "girl w/ guitar" music by themselves... and adding a x-over at 300 Hz seems like you'd be missing the point of using a single driver.

Dave

[doorman]

I've not measured the spl levels, but my BLH's with fe126's will go far louder than "girl & guitar" levels! Jazz fusion is my favorite genre, these play louder than a (former) pair of mltl's w/ 6" Fostex drivers, with  more articulate mid's IMHO.
That said I do use a sub, whereas with the mltl's I didn't really need one for most program material.
Happy Hunting!
 Don

[Len_Dreyer]

I have Tekton Design's Fostex FE167E 6" speakers. They took a very long time to break in and the sound changes dramatically.  So if your speakers are new, your not hearing all they can do.  I haven't heard the 4.5", but this Sunday I'm looking forward to listening to Horn Shoppe Horns for the first time.

[JLM]

A constant 80 dB is quite loud (what most audio get togethers play at).  Additional headroom must be available for peaks (roughly 10 dB for rock, 20 dB for jazz, and 30 dB for classical).  And the question of how loud at what distortion levels (some drivers do this better than others).  I've heard some of the original Horns play very loud, but they were distorting badly.

[chrisby]

Several ways to look at this question, so I see no easy answer. 

Ed Schilling from The Horn fame has a compelling argument on his site for 4 inchers. 

But the physics involved say the 4 incher have a hard time generating much deep bass regardless of cabinet design, etc.

 

brave move to mention Ed's well know affection for this size driver, and the word "physics" in the such close proximity   

The smaller drivers don't have whizzers.  (This topic could generate a whole series of threads by itself.)  Again, those same physics say that a small whizzer shouldn't "beam" high frequencies as much as 4 inch driver without a whizzer. 

Fostex also has a F120A driver that goes deeper, less efficient, and uses an AlNiCo magnet but doesn't offer anything like it in a 6 or 6.5 inch size.  So this rather unique driver throws a hard curveball into this discussion.

yup, this one is quite special - for approx half the cost, the FX120 looks rather promising as well, and has T/S parameters "close enough for rock 'n roll" that it should work well in similar enclosures

What's interesting and a bit frustrating about Fostex for non Japanese builders, is that they produce a series of very special drivers that we'll never get our hands on, including dream machines like the FE138ESR, etc.

http://www.eifl.co.jp/index/export/fostex/fullrange/fe1380es-r_L.jpg

Furthermore, as raw loudspeaker components for the DIYer represent a very small percentage of their total manufacturing capacity or product line, they feel no compunction to modify or discontinue drivers - sometimes to the consternation of small commercial builders. Any large scale OEM will have more leverage than even a well organized DIY buying group could ever hope to achieve.

The F200A is the next beast in the Fostex line currently theoretically available to the DIYer, but at $400US a piece, not likely to be widely played with.  Bud Purvine has some very interesting things to say about this driver, which doesn't include a whizzer.     

6 inch drivers usually have whizzer cones, but roughly double Sd (surface area) to push more/deeper bass.  Physics (and specifications) show all else being equal that larger drivers are more efficient as well.

Fostex makes multiple drivers of the same size to suit different applications and taste.  If you're in a small room/setting or will be using a subwoofer a 4 inch driver could be ideal.  OTOH if your interest is primarily listening to small ensembles, a 6 inch could make a lot of sense.

So it often boils down to expectations.  Single drivers offer many advantages, but so far  there is no perfect speaker.  Expectations, application, and tastes are the keys to single driver bliss. 

as Bob well stated, YMMV, and these free opinions are worth every penny

 

[Ed Schilling]

Well, any speaker can easily be driven into distortion. The image below is in the center of the room, Metallica (as usual) and the room is 17 X 18. The amp was the F1. There was not a hint of (audible) compression or distortion. The speakers are in the corners.

The Horns are corner horns and unless they are in corners they will not make the highest out puts. I demonstrate this all the time.

While the rear horn loading only helps the efficiency from 50 to a couple hundred hz catch up to the main output, remember,  having the whole speaker in the corner is a significant gain by itself. This is easy to prove to your self........simply stick your speakers in a corner and note the efficiency gain.

My speakers just happen to take advantage of that in that they are designed to use this effect. The result speaks for itself.

Having heard the Horns "play loudly but distorting badly" is easy to do, just use a small amp and clip it or pull them out in the middle of the room and crank them until they crackle. They also will play insanely loud WITHOUT distorting. Something that is a well known fact....the exact opposite of "little girls and guitars". Some TL's have a problem with high spls and this causes some people to think "all single drivers can't play Metal". A statement that that has sent many into fits of laughter while being beat senseless in the Pink Room.

Not a single person that has ever been here has thought my system needed to be able to play louder. And no one has ever said "too bad it can't play Metal and has to stick to little girls with guitars". Quite the opposite.

Unless you are going to rear horn load the driver and design for corner placement I'd not be using a 4 inch driver. But for other reasons I'd never use a 6 inch or larger driver either.

The driver doesn't make the speaker good and neither does the cabinet.....it's a system and there is more to it than the driver and the box.

Don hit the nail on the head.....his little speakers  (they are not mine) will play louder and cleaner than his MLTL 6's . Of course they will. And louder and cleaner than any 8 inch MLTL too I'm sure. MLTL, VP, TL or any "risky pipe scheme"  is not a good way to load a single driver in my opinion. Although I do like TL's for bass drivers.

Dave, I take it that you mean with the Horns in corners they will play significantly louder. Again, this is no surprise.....rear loaded corner horn vs. BR.....

The subject of this thread is flawed because there is no real answer.....a crappy speaker can be made from any driver on the planet.

A 2 way is much easier to design than a single driver system.

 Thanks for the mention guys.

Ed


Edit....Chris, it is....because so many forget about those pesky laws and how they work......try this....

Stereophile measurement of one speaker, not in corners.....94 db (old 108's)........add 3 db for the second speaker and channel of amplification (stereo remember).....so we are at a conservative 97 for the system.....but wait...the WHOLE SPEAKER is in 1/8 space....isn't that good for another 3db per speaker at least? Since we have 2 and 2 channels of amplification that puts the system efficiency around 103 db.... "by the math".

So......103 for one watt (per channel).....106 for 2 watts (per channel)......109 for 4 watts (per channel).........Pass X150 makes 150 watts continuous and 1000 watt peaks........so as you can see my "reference amp" for several years easily had the head room and the system easily had the efficiency to make 110 db peaks playing real music with low audible distortion. Way too many people forget the Horns are a corner horn and that  the speaker itself also benefits from the 1/8 space of the corner.

I actually did take a few physics courses. Which is why I build an exponential flared, rear loaded, corner horn. As far as I know the only way to shrink the mouth of a horn is to use the corners of the room. And I believe we agree that horn loading a driver increases it's efficiency within it's (the horn's) useful  range.  Physics and all that. The trick is making it all work.

The deep bass is better dealt with by using a "bass augmenter" than trying to make a single driver system do it....in my opinion.
And that applies to most mini monitors and small 2 way towers as well....again....in my opinion.



 

[Wind Chaser]

As for full range drivers, I like the 5" Jordan.  Good bass down to 40 Hz and even lower in the right enclosure.  Smoother and easier on the ear than any of the the Fostex drivers I have heard.  However they are considerably more money but well worth it in IMO. 

[rajacat]

Louis's 4" hemp drivers are substantially smoother and have greater range than the 4" Fostex 127s. I replaced the (4) Fostexs with the 4" hemps in my Omegas Dipoles about a year ago and certainly very elated with the improved sound quality. I'm getting a very expansive and holographic soundstage with nice localization of the players/instruments. aa Tasty organic tone and texture.

-Roy

[John Kalinowski]

I prefer the fe166e in nagaoka BLH. In  others cab designs fe166e is not so hot nagaoka has is down why mess with it?  FE126E is pretty good but is a bit limiting sure you can get SPL like Ed shows but the sound.... A bit forced to me unless used in smaller rooms or near field. Ive got 3 diferant fe126e speakers in my home today all have diferant sound quality and bass ranges. Heck for easy DIY put FE126E in a med OB sounds almost as good as in proper BLH. But as with all Things YMMV

[Ed Schilling]

John,
I am sure the 126's you have in house would sound "forced" at the levels I routinely play. I would also bet money they were not designed as corner horns either. There is a reason why I build a corner horn and not anything else.

All 126 based speakers are not the same. And few if any would I bother to build. Mainly because I did decades ago.

I will say this again for those that may not still get it......there is ONE way to get an increase in efficiency (over more than 1 octave) while lowering excursion....it is with a horn. There is ONLY one way to shrink the size of the mouth of a horn....by corner loading it. As far as I know not a single "common" BLH meets the requirements for a horn....NONE with a forward facing mouth have any where near the area needed to actually be a horn. And they aren't, and more importantly they don't perform like one either.

The increase in efficiency by having the speakers designed for use in the corners PLUS the fact the walls form just about a 50 hz mouth pretty much insure that comparisons to other " 126 blh's" is meaningless.

The Horns are a REAL corner horn (if used properly).................they are MUCH more efficient than any other 126 based speaker that is not. Period. Not only does the corner loading form the mouth it also increases efficiency across the band, just as it does with any speaker placed in the corners of a room. The trick is....this was taken into account in the overall response shaping. Simply sticking a speaker in a corner usually does not work well for speakers not designed for that purpose.

When NOT in corners they are NOT much different than any other improperly sized BLH. And the SPL max does decrease.....

For some reason the idea that all speakers using the same drivers should sound the same or similar is common among the uninformed (although sometimes experienced) DIY crowd. While it is possible that in many cases this is true it is far from a rule.

Dynaudio used to sell drivers to the DIY's....if anyone thinks you could DIY a factory Dynaudio speaker and have it sound like the real thing I have news for you......not hardly.

My speakers are BACK LOADED CORNER HORNS....if people are going to talk about the driver I use and my speaker  in the same sentence and then compare it to something else, then I would appreciate it if it was also being compared to a truly similar speaker..... a back loaded corner horn, for instance and not some other inferior loading (for a single driver speaker system).


But as I stated at the beginning.....I am sure the "other" 126 based speakers that most people try don't have a prayer of playing the clean SPL's the Horns will. There is no reason to think they could either......most are not horns and most for sure don't use the acoustic gain offered by the corners.

Anyone that wants to have me prove all this and is close by is welcome to stop by.....anytime. I do it all the time.

Lots of speakers will sound better than a 126 in an unsuitable cabinet. Unfortunately, this applies to most 126 "designs" that have popped up. The idea that one can apply common design techniques and methods to single driver designs is ridiculous. The result being a bunch of quirky, mediocre sounding speakers that would be better if they had been designed as a 2 way.

A speaker is a system not a collection of parts. Applying loadings that work for multi way systems to single driver systems is flawed in most cases.
Ed
BTW...I would not keep beating this dead horse except for the fact The Horns keep getting mentioned by name and compared to designs that are not remotely similar in performance and no one seems to understand why they are NOT "just a 126 blh". They are NOT "similar" to anything else as far as I know....And they will in fact play louder and cleaner than most FR designs regardless of driver size. Corner loading is a big deal...ask PWK.

126 in OB?  ....wipes eyes...

**Edit**....please don't read "tone" into my post. It was merely for explanation. My feelings are that a system must be able to play at high spl's if needed. This does not mean it needs to be with only a couple watts, but rather just have the ability to do it. Most single driver systems can't....regardless of amplifier power. The Horns can...with a 126. Most others with the same driver can't. A fact. And they are not corner horns either, now, are they?

[Graham Maynard]

That should become a permanent reference ........ G.

[DaveC113]

Ed, have you ever built a set of horns with larger drivers?

[Ed Schilling]

Dave,
I'm not really a "horn guy". I only used the loading to achieve my goals. For the most part I've not been a fan of horns. But I understand them and what they do and why. I could ramble about this for pages....it's not a simple thing. For the most part "real horns" other than corner horns are too large to be practical for almost everyone.

That said, in this case it was simply the only way to get what I wanted....still is. I prefer the sound of single driver speakers....I believe there is a "correct size"....I like to listen to "metal" every now and again...don't like big speakers taking up a lot of space making a visual impact.....The Horns exist because they fit my vision and desires and they are what they are simply because they are a realization of that vision.....they can't be anything else.

With what I have learned I can say that even if a suitable driver for them became unavailable I have a "back up plan" in place. They won't be better and they won't be worse......I can't explain how or why this is so and it's not important.....but my "vision" will still be intact.

I built primarily sealed and TL's..........then I realized it was the single driver sound I really liked but the trick was to have them be "normal speakers" with the ability to play very loud. Building single driver speakers that sounded good at sedate volume was easy.

We are "The Horn Shoppe" because we build "The Horns"......not because we are "horn experts". The name came because they were in between the speakers below kicking their ass the first time we (Mac and I) ever played them. We thought it funny at the time.......they were NOT built to "sell". But we (my buddy Mac and I) knew in 10 seconds they needed to be sold....somehow......and that my "vision had been realized". Dad had no idea what was in store for him and neither did I!

So the "technical" answer is no, but I did have these (this was the left one)...........

[DaveC113]

Let me re-phrase the question slightly... Have you ever built a set of "The Horns" using a 6" Fostex, or larger driver... a scaled-up version of what you currently make? Sorry for the confusion.

Dave