Best sounding, Reasonably priced USB enabled DAC - HELP NEEDED

Lizard_King · « **on:** 7 Jun 2008, 04:51 pm »

Hello All,

I am desiring to use my PC (Win XP) to drive my system. I already have a great Modified Denon player and I keep a lot of music on my PC in lossless format. The SPDIF on my M-Audio sound card does not cut it, even when I tried a buddy's Bel Canto Dac3.

USB seems the way to go when you use a properly designed DAC with intelligent circuit topology. I will need to use a USB extender and then run 35-50 feet of Cat5 Ethernet cable. I am told this is good for up to 150 feet.

There are many DACS out there that have USB, but few IMHO that handle the USB interface properly. Two DACS that IMHO can do it right are the Benchmark DAC1 USB and the Bel Canto Dac3 . I am hopeful to use another DAC and I am contemplating a tubed based one though it it not definite that I want tube. I must convey, I am NOT a DYI guy.

Some designers like to convert from USB to SPDIF, others like to use USB and I2S and there are some who like to use Custom Software and drivers.

I have dome some research and here are some that I may consider using: Scott Nixon Tube DAC with USB (newest one when he releases it) Audio note kit 2.1, Hagerman Technology. Musical fidelity Xdac v8, Oritek Audio (when he designs with USB). Benchmark Dac 1 USB. Pacific Valve Brigatta, etc.

I really need your input and welcome to hear from anyone who has experience using this type of setup to please a fickle audiophile on a budget.

Thanks in Advance and I hope to hear from you soon.

Berndt · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Jun 2008, 06:37 pm »

FWIW, I just got a used ps audio digital link.
It has usb in and balanced out.
I got it used on the 'gon for 700$.
I like it.

boead · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Jun 2008, 10:20 pm »

Quote from: Lizard_King on 7 Jun 2008, 04:51 pm

I may consider using: Scott Nixon Tube DAC with USB (newest one when he releases it) Audio note kit 2.1, Hagerman Technology. Musical fidelity Xdac v8, Oritek Audio (when he designs with USB). Benchmark Dac 1 USB. Pacific Valve Brigatta, etc.

I just got back my SN USBTD. It was upgraded to the constant current supply spec by Scott. I also have his better power supply. Sounds very nice and favors well to stuff I have now and from what I can remember owning. Its relaxed and musical with most music I’ve thrown at it. 320k MP3’s and Waves using Foobar, Winamp and iTunes on a WinXP laptop. I use an NAS to store data on.
It has a nice soundstage, wide and airy. Not bright, not a big top-end extension but I like that. My iPod Touch is sharper with more upfront vocal, narrower soundstage, same depth but a less musical - still very nice. The Nixon excels in its bass and mid-bass. Its not a lean DAC, but its not thick, fat and tubby. Its got some warmth, weight and authority. I think bass is one its best characters, very nice vocals too. I think this DAC is VERY similar to a CAL Sigma-II I owned for some time.

Compared to my Arcam FMJ? There isn’t any really, the FMJ does everything better. It’s considered a rich warm solid state CDP by most. The Nixon is warmer and not as extended. The Arcam has a VERY large soundstage in all directions and detail that’s extraordinary.

I’ve tried a few tubes in the past and liked this early 80’s Yugo tube Scott sent me with it. He sent me a National Russian tube recently and I don’t like it as much. I have a PQ that wasn’t quite right in it a year or so ago; I haven’t tried it with the new circuit yet. I tried a classic Mullard but it gave off too much bloom.

The guy I bought My Scott Nixon from when on to buy a Benchmark and the Bel Canto and wrote me months later saying he wanted the Nixon again, asked if I was happy with it. 0

Remember, the USB cable have literally NO effect on the audio, unlike SPDIF cables. USB DAC’s are the way to go.

Upstateaudio · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Jun 2008, 11:03 pm »

Try the Musiland MD10 DAC. I am using it in a USB configuration but with a Squeezebox and am quite pleased with the sound. Its almost analog like.

wilsynet · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 Jun 2008, 01:37 am »

I'm using an old Apple Powerbook G4 for my source, but if you're using Windows XP, be sure to spring for the ASIO drivers.

I do not know if you can reasonably rely on a USB extender. USB DACs present themselves as USB audio class devices, and I believe put themselves in USB isochronous transfer mode which is sensitive to jitter, loss and latency. I understand that people say that USB is digital and is perfect, but if you look at the USB spec and you look at the USB Audio class spec, and you reference the great work being done by Wavelength Audio and Empirical Audio then you'll see very quickly that it's not true. The USB extender you have in mind may be best suited toward things like external hard drives but not at all suitable for USB audio class devices. Having said that, I have no experience with USB extenders (but I do have experience with writing systems software for networks and ... just because it's digital doesn't mean we don't lose things).

I'm somewhat sensitive to hard edges, and the hyper-resolving Benchmark DAC1 was simply too much for me to listen to for more than half an hour at a time before succumbing to fatigue. However, you might not be as sensitive as I am.

I have a RWA Signature 30.2 driving Zu Druids.

I've auditioned 3 USB DACs now: the Scott Nixon JFET USB, the UltraFi iRoc and the Wavelength Brick ASYNC. After several recommendations from fellow AC members regarding the AudioSector DAC, I also have that on the way and would be happy to post my impressions next week when it arrives.

I liked the SN product a lot, but I thought the UltraFi was clearly better (it's also quite a bit more expensive). The Wavelength Brick v2 (ASYNC) was easily the best of the bunch, but I didn't think it was sufficiently better than the UltraFi iRoc to justify the cost of selling the iRoc (and taking a loss) and then upgrading to the Brick. If I were buying a new USB DAC today, I would likely get the Wavelength Brick v2 and be done with it.

The SN sounds great, but the iRoc was more dynamic, more alive, more open. The Brick.v2 is like the iRoc, but has more authoritative and refined bass, and gets the tonality more right. I think all of the three products (SN, UltraFi, Wavelength) are good and I have nothing negative to say about them, just varying degrees of goodness.

I have not heard the MHDT Paridisea+ but it does seem to be well regarded, so you may want to add that to your short list too.

Lizard_King · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 Jun 2008, 03:02 am »

Hello and thanks for getting back to me. The Scott Nixon DAC looks nice, low cost with a single 6922 tube. I have some great 1970's Mullard tubes that I can use. I also have Alon 2 Mk2 speakers . I love them yet my room is narrow, the concrete floor, rug, 7 foot ceiling and large cutout to the kitchem rob my of all Bass and hurt my Lower midrage. I am thinking of getting Maplewood speakers plinths to get the to sound better? Do you have nay suggestions for me? How do yours sound in the bass?

Do you think the SN Dac can handle a long run USB/Cat5 cables run?

Quote from: boead on 7 Jun 2008, 10:20 pm

Quote from: Lizard_King on 7 Jun 2008, 04:51 pm
I may consider using: Scott Nixon Tube DAC with USB (newest one when he releases it) Audio note kit 2.1, Hagerman Technology. Musical fidelity Xdac v8, Oritek Audio (when he designs with USB). Benchmark Dac 1 USB. Pacific Valve Brigatta, etc.

I just got back my SN USBTD. It was upgraded to the constant current supply spec by Scott. I also have his better power supply. Sounds very nice and favors well to stuff I have now and from what I can remember owning. Its relaxed and musical with most music I’ve thrown at it. 320k MP3’s and Waves using Foobar, Winamp and iTunes on a WinXP laptop. I use an NAS to store data on.
It has a nice soundstage, wide and airy. Not bright, not a big top-end extension but I like that. My iPod Touch is sharper with more upfront vocal, narrower soundstage, same depth but a less musical - still very nice. The Nixon excels in its bass and mid-bass. Its not a lean DAC, but its not thick, fat and tubby. Its got some warmth, weight and authority. I think bass is one its best characters, very nice vocals too. I think this DAC is VERY similar to a CAL Sigma-II I owned for some time.

Compared to my Arcam FMJ? There isn’t any really, the FMJ does everything better. It’s considered a rich warm solid state CDP by most. The Nixon is warmer and not as extended. The Arcam has a VERY large soundstage in all directions and detail that’s extraordinary.

I’ve tried a few tubes in the past and liked this early 80’s Yugo tube Scott sent me with it. He sent me a National Russian tube recently and I don’t like it as much. I have a PQ that wasn’t quite right in it a year or so ago; I haven’t tried it with the new circuit yet. I tried a classic Mullard but it gave off too much bloom.

The guy I bought My Scott Nixon from when on to buy a Benchmark and the Bel Canto and wrote me months later saying he wanted the Nixon again, asked if I was happy with it. 0

Remember, the USB cable have literally NO effect on the audio, unlike SPDIF cables. USB DAC’s are the way to go.

Lizard_King · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Jun 2008, 03:05 am »

Hello and thanks, That looks to low end for me. From that same importer, the Briggata Dac is one I may think of.

Quote from: Upstateaudio on 7 Jun 2008, 11:03 pm

Try the Musiland MD10 DAC. I am using it in a USB configuration but with a Squeezebox and am quite pleased with the sound. Its almost analog like.

Lizard_King · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Jun 2008, 07:46 pm »

some more suggestions please????

mcullinan · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Jun 2008, 08:05 pm »

Stello DA-100 Signature DAC an excellent all around DAC. Great prat, dynamics, detail, soundstage, SLAM!!!!.
Its $895 I believe. Worth every penny.
Beats the Lavry which I had previous to it. Though thats more my preference and they just have different presentations

saisunil · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Jun 2008, 08:06 pm »

I have heard and read good thing about Ultra Fi's iRoc USB DAC:
http://www.thecableco.com/product.php?id=5325

I am new to computer audio as well and I am using the following setup:
Dell laptop (with external HD) -> Duet (with CI Audio PS) -> Empirical Design Digital Cable -> CI Audio DAC with CI Audio PS

how does it sound?
... now I am having wireless problems

I tried the DAC with the digital out of the TRL modded Sony 900 - so far the dac sounds quite good!

WGH · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Jun 2008, 08:22 pm »

Another option is to use a HagUSB
http://www.hagtech.com/hagusb.html

You can then have a long run of 75 ohm cable and use any DAC.

I run 25' of Blue Jeans 75 ohm cable --> HagUSB --> Scott Nixon TubeDAC with the 3XAC power supply. Sweet sounds but I want more definition. Tube rolling can change the character quite a bit. I'm just spoiled by what vinyl does.

Ridge Street Audio · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Jun 2008, 09:04 pm »

Hi Lizzard_King.

Saw this thread and had to chime in.

Having spent some time with the Ultra Fi iRoc USB DAC, I have to second saisunil's recommendation of this unit. I now own one. I posted Larry Moore of Ultra Fi to make sure I wasn't crossing any boundaries and just got a response back from him: You can purchase a new iRoc directly from Ultra Fi. He also has four upgrade trade-ins for $700.00 each. His info is:

Phone: (513) 697-1187
Email: theultrafi@mac.com
Web: www.ultrafiaudiodesigns.com

He also has a new USB DAC that is yet to be named. It's $3500.00 but it's KILLER! If you were at the recent AudioKarma Fest, Ultra Fi and RSAD shared a room together and the new USB DAC was part of the front end so, you may have heard it. Some considered the Ultra Fi/RSAD room best sound at the show for what that's worth. I'm very happy with the iRoc but having heard the new DAC I'll likely look into trading up at some point.

It would be a mistake not to at least talk with Larry. The man's a guru with tube amp and digital circuitry!

Hope that helps a bit.

Cheers!

Robert C. Schult
RSAD

rajacat · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Jun 2008, 09:51 pm »

http://cgi.ebay.com/TDA1545A-Non-OS-USB-TUBE-DAC-Paradisea_W0QQitemZ120273946062QQihZ002QQcategoryZ14978QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

mca · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jul 2008, 01:49 am »

http://positive-feedback.com/Issue38/mhdt_paradisea.htm

t-head · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Aug 2008, 08:14 pm »

Peter Daniel NOS USB DAC - phdaniel@sympatico.ca approx $380 assembled...

search on AC for Peter Daniel NOS USB DAC

t

JCarney · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Aug 2008, 08:44 pm »

I would second both the Musiland MD10, and the PS Audio DLIII. The DLIII is better then the MD10, but it's 3 times the price, and not three times as good. I had the DLIII here for an audition, and really could not find anything to nit pick. If you can find a used one, jump on it. The MD10 gets you about 80 to 85% of the DLIII IMO, and for $308 delivered, it's hard to beat. I must admit that I have only heard those two dacs, and the dac section of a Hagerman Ripper, so my experience is limited. I bought an MD10 from http://ifiaudio.com/home.html, and it arrived just fine, and the communication was good. I have no affiliation with IFI, just a happy customer.

Good Luck,
JCarney

whubbard · « **Reply #16 on:** 21 Aug 2008, 09:06 pm »

I have seen many of Peter Daniels posts on DIYaudio and I take him to be a very smart and helpful guy. So after seeing that he sold a DAC (I thought he just did the amps), I went ahead and purchased a S/PDIF DAC from him. I will post a review once I am done building it. I personally chose the DIY option, but he only charges $80 extra for assembly and mounting on a wooden board (Very reasonable!!)

-West

AmpDesigner333 · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Aug 2008, 01:37 am »

Quote from: Lizard_King on 7 Jun 2008, 04:51 pm

Hello All,

I am desiring to use my PC (Win XP) to drive my system. I already have a great Modified Denon player and I keep a lot of music on my PC in lossless format. The SPDIF on my M-Audio sound card does not cut it, even when I tried a buddy's Bel Canto Dac3.

USB seems the way to go when you use a properly designed DAC with intelligent circuit topology. I will need to use a USB extender and then run 35-50 feet of Cat5 Ethernet cable. I am told this is good for up to 150 feet.

There are many DACS out there that have USB, but few IMHO that handle the USB interface properly. Two DACS that IMHO can do it right are the Benchmark DAC1 USB and the Bel Canto Dac3 . I am hopeful to use another DAC and I am contemplating a tubed based one though it it not definite that I want tube. I must convey, I am NOT a DYI guy.

Some designers like to convert from USB to SPDIF, others like to use USB and I2S and there are some who like to use Custom Software and drivers.

I have dome some research and here are some that I may consider using: Scott Nixon Tube DAC with USB (newest one when he releases it) Audio note kit 2.1, Hagerman Technology. Musical fidelity Xdac v8, Oritek Audio (when he designs with USB). Benchmark Dac 1 USB. Pacific Valve Brigatta, etc.

I really need your input and welcome to hear from anyone who has experience using this type of setup to please a fickle audiophile on a budget.

Thanks in Advance and I hope to hear from you soon.

Look to the pro audio market for great quality, reasonably priced USB D/A, A/D, and S/PDIF interfaces. I have purchased many times from American Musical Supply (a.k.a. AMS). Here's their site:
http://www.americanmusical.com/

Search for "USB Audio Interfaces", or just start typing USB into the search box...

Don't worry about all the hype. Just look at the specs. Oscillators are much better these days, even in the cheap USB stuff, and even the sloppiest audio companies just use the reference designs of the chips which are done well. Just look at the specs...

DaveC113 · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Oct 2008, 04:24 am »

Quote from: AmpDesigner333 on 22 Aug 2008, 01:37 am

Look to the pro audio market for great quality, reasonably priced USB D/A, A/D, and S/PDIF interfaces. I have purchased many times from American Musical Supply (a.k.a. AMS). Here's their site:
http://www.americanmusical.com/

Search for "USB Audio Interfaces", or just start typing USB into the search box...

Don't worry about all the hype. Just look at the specs. Oscillators are much better these days, even in the cheap USB stuff, and even the sloppiest audio companies just use the reference designs of the chips which are done well. Just look at the specs...

Most of these seem to be for recording onto the computer (A>D), and not really purpose built DACs... I did see the Lowther room using an Emu DAC, which they said was a lot better than a Paradisea they tried. However, after looking into it, it seems mhdt built a poor usb converter, and a HagUSB or Trends UD10 USB>S/PDIF converter improved the sound. As the OP pointed out, few handle the USB interface properly.

SO,

I already have an Audio Alchemy DTI (re-clocker) > Audio Magic Silver I2S Cable > Audio Alchemy XDP DAC. This seems like a fairly good DAC, but I am looking for one that is built to properly interface with a computer via USB, and will be a significant step up in sound quality. A few I'm aware of:

RWA... at $2500 this would have to be significantly better than anything else I'm looking at. No switchable inputs, probably multiple input options though.

Bryston... $2000, but better deals available w/ a local shop's grand opening sale. This looks like a winner with switchable inputs and selectable upsampling. I'd like to be able to have a couple digital sources connected at the same time.

Ultra Fi iRoc... $1500, but a trade in for $700 seems like a great deal... with the new ones coming out now might be the time to take advantage. No switchable inputs so I can't use it with a cdp, usb only.

PS Audio DL III... $1000. Advantage of switchable inputs and selectable upsampling as well.

Wavelength Audio Brick... $1750. No switchable inputs, usb only.

I'm using Omega XRS speakers with a kt88/6550/el34 SET amp and 6922 tube preamp. I'm looking for a DAC that is clear and neutral, and will contribute to good imaging and soundstaging. I don't want a warm, fuzzy DAC, or a clinical, analytical DAC thats hard to listen to.

Any suggestions or opinions to narrow the field would be helpful. Used is fine... I may look for used versions of some of these DACs, or suggestions for used equipment up to about $1.5k would be ok too.

TIA,
Dave

wilsynet · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Oct 2008, 08:47 am »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 14 Oct 2008, 04:24 am

RWA... at $2500 this would have to be significantly better than anything else I'm looking at. No switchable inputs, probably multiple input options though.

It really is that good. IMHO, significantly better than anything else you're presently looking at. In terms of detail, presence, tonality, dynamics, overall balance, and a non-fatiguing, almost analogue like sound, the RWA DAC has it all in spades. The inputs are selectable: BNC (with included RCA adapter), TOSLINK, and USB. Switch is in the back.

The RWA USB implementation is far superior to the PSAudio Digital Link III which converts the USB to SPDIF and then finally to I2S. More conversion is not a good thing. As for the Bryston, I expect you'll find it a over-analytical. Regarding the iRoc which has a 3200 ohm output impedance, you'll find the 100 ohm output impedance of the RWA to result in very real benefits to dynamics. As for the Brick, it's tonally nice, but a bit too laid back.

There is a recent 6moons review of the Isabella (the preamp) with built-in DAC, and a good page devoted to the DAC section.

I'll also second the recommendation for the Peter Daniels AudioSector USB DAC. It represents an incredible bargain at ~$400, and is a personal favorite of mine amongst DACs below $2K.