[doug s.]

And I don't mean to be disrespectful to our host the Chair Guy, but the diff between a table
in this league and an SL-1200 is like going from a Toyota Corolla to a Formula One car.
It doesn't mean the SL-1200 is not worthwhile, it's probably the best turntable value out there
today. If carefully setup can do amazing things.  But if you have a system capable of the
resolution that one of these tables can offer and you also have a pretty good record
collection, you will not be disappointed.

No disrespect felt, Jeff...rock on 

Candor and free form discussion about vinyl with politeness appropriate between relative strangers is all my fellow co-Fac Larry Crim and I can reasonably ask for.

Besides, I'm not by any means a staunch fanboy of the Technics...my co-Fac would fit that bill closer 

I just bought my 'next' TT today....a fully refurbed DUAL 701 in a new (heavier lumber) base. I was talked out of the 1229 Idler by Bill at FixMyDual as he said his preference over all others is the 701.  DC, Direct Drive (not quartz), 9 lb platter and semi-auto function sound worthy of $450.00 to me. 

The guy is an expert at DUAL's of the 60-early 80's. The 701 is homely, but may work better than it's cover may suggest:



John

not familiar w/the 701, but it's a good thing you were talked out of the 1229.  that was my first "real" turntable, bought as a young teenager - what a p.o.s. that was!  i replaced it after college w/a cheap used $50 plastic pioneer belt-drive deck that killed it.  only a few years later was i to enjoy really better decks, but i saw the handwriting on the wall...

doug s.

ps - i'd still take any empire deck over any dual deck, fwiw...   aa

[Wayner]

Me too!

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

Well, I'll see soon enough 

A 9 lb platter with Direct Drive (particularly if I can use the 2 lb outer platter clamp I have, too) should make this a potentially interesting deck to try.

As DUAL's of that era were....it's a suspended design (entire deck, including the tonearm, of course in this case).  The much heavier outer base should damp down rumble significantly...and the DUAL DC motor is near peerless even today. It has an innovative mechanical damping system for resonance built into the counterweight, too.

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/701.shtml

John

[BobRex]

I currently own three tables and gave away a Technics direct drive awhile back. Even the suspension on the direct drive was somewhat ridgid and the other three are non-suspended. What I've found thru the years is that one needs to isolate that table as best he can. So far the best I've found is a Ginko Cloud by a wide margin. Now with this in mind lets get back to the Sotas a minute. We all know they're a good quality table, but many of us don't realize that they have a very well designed suspension system. This makes the bass have a nice warm sound. It's pretty hard to get that out of a non-suspended table or even a direct drive.
    Dollar for dollar the best buy right now is the Marantz. I personally don't like the drive belts that VPI uses, and will never own another direct drive again. With that being said I do like most of the build quality of a VPI table. Now I've spent enough money thru the years on tables to buy a Sota Millenium with the vac option. For drive belts, I prefer string drives made from something that won't stretch (I currently am using a Kevlar / silk thread). But even now I have at least one or two more tricks up my sleeve.
gary

Out of curiosity, what have you compared the Ginko to?  To me the Silent Running platforms appear to be a more elegant solution, they at least offer levelling.  They can also be cheaper than the Ginkos.

So instead of string drives, have you considered mag tape ala Teres and Galibier?  Or, even the rim drive that VPI and Teres are now offering.  At this point my next table short list is the Sota Cosmos, Teres 265 w/ Verus drive, or the smaller TW table.  If i go with the Teres or TW I'll probably also get a Silent Running base for added isolation.  I've convinced my wife that it's time for a new table, so I should have something by the end of the year.

here's the list:
* a stock Atlantis rack (short one)
* standard steel pucks under the table
* brass pucks (slightly better)
* copper inert tungstin pucks (best I've found)
* solid copper pucks (not much difference between the above and this one
* ball bearing pucks with both steel and ceramic balls (not as good as the tungstin pucks)
* all the above pucks setting atop slabs of balsa wood (maybe a slight improvment yet)
* Big Rock ( was OK, but became a P.I.A. to level it all out and keep the motor aligned)
* hard maple (not as good as the Rock or the Cloud)
* Ginko Cloud
             * with standard steel pucks (better than all of the above
             * with tungstin pucks (not too much difference
             * beech wood plates under the pucks (noticably better, but not a huge improvment)
             * isolated the motor base
                         * brass plates (maybe a tiny bit better)
                         * aluminum plates (not as good)
                         * Sorbathane slab (really noticed a difference, and actually made the Denon D103 sound OK)
Also did some experiments with drive strings (they all are not the same). There were some noticable improvments here.
Next experiment will be to isolate the cartridge from the tone arm, and yet not change the tone arm mass too much if any.
gary

You tested quite a few items there...., but please realize that out of the entire list, only 2 are designed to isolate, the rest are couplers.  To isolate you either need some sort of compliance or some other method of dissipating motion (usually into heat.)
I'm not doubting that you heard a difference, I'm just saying that many of the differences weren't due to isolation.  Think of it this way, imagine replacing the shocks on your car with brass (or aluminum or cf) rods (cones).  Will the car still be isolated from the road shocks?  Now replace the tires with brass bands - how will the car ride?

I'm suprised at your comments on the SOTA.  Why do you attribute bass warmth to the suspension?

[lazydays]

OK lets take some of my experiments a little deeper in thought and why I went that way:
    I used to have access to some very nice vibration anylisis testing equipment, and with it on weekeds I did a lot of checking and rechecking. First of all it's near impossible to check a turntable itself, as it revolves way too slow for an accurate reading on any piece of equipment. But we had a special little program developed for us to check ball screw drives that was good down to about 15 rpm if you could run it for over two minutes. Yet this piece of equipment would register vibration of somekind even if it were not state of the art accurate. With this said, I'll kind guide you thru some of the ideas and directions I went, and why.
* It's very hard to test a turntable while playing anyform of music, and about the only things you can really test accurately are the motor and feet. With my turntables (well two of them)I was also able to set a probe up on the tone arm mounting brackets and top plate. But never the tonearn itself while playing music. What I really need is a good disc that has maybe three or four minutes of a certain frequency (say 50Hz, 200Hz, 1000Hz, and maybe 10KHz). This will allow the tester to be able to establish a better base to work from. One also needs t know that his turntable, arm, and stand are nothing more than a pickup for feed back even when not in use. Your house current will generate a 60Hz feedback thru the whole thing (this is what I used for a base test, and there is no good way to filter this out).

*First thing I checked was the motor by itself. Yes there was some feedback (or vibration from the motor itself) Then I took the turntable & motor drive by themselves without playing music. I did about a twenty minute test with this setup. Now I have another base line to compair with. The next test I did was with the CD player playing music (it's wise to have several CD's that offer different musical tones and volume level changes). I did put an LP on the turntable top here (why later). I then rechecked the motor, feet and also check the arm and mountings. I was alarmed at what I found! Another antenna for gathering vibrational forces (better said as vectors of sound). Checking two different tonearms (Graham and an SME) let me know they were vibrating almost all the time; even with the system completely shut down (remember the 60Hz thing?) So now we have to find the pathway this is getting into the table.
Still with all the above I now have several good base lines of data to compair notes with.

*a few weekends later I have to goto another seminar which requires the use of the testing equipment. All the while I made several new sets of pucks with the grand idea of decoupleing the force vectors from moving up thru the bast of the table. Some worked and some didn't as I spoke of before. One actually was worse. I first went with a set of aluminum pucks (6061-T6) that were ground flat. They were actually worse! I later added a piece of soft rubber to the bottom of them with some slight improvement, but then developed a motor alignment problem that the equipment detected instantly. I next went with solid copper pucks with a much greater improvement (brass was almost as good). A note here to let you all know that the thickness of the pucks was more than doubled. The reasoning behind the copper and the brass pucks was that the metals are somewhat resistant to vibrational forces when compaired to 1018 steel. Later I came into a six inch bar of copper inert tungstin (one of the most dense metals on the planet), and made six more pucks (gotta have them for the motor as well). Somewhat better results, and the tests showed this as well. But there was still feed back moving thru the arm and mount. I had a slab of Mallory metal to try, but it sorta dissapeared. So you can see the direct I was moving.

*Now we'll move into the Big Rock. I first set it up using plain old sand like you'd put in a kid's sand box. It worked pretty good according to the testing equipment and when compaired to the series of base line graphs. But I ran into other nonrelated problems that like to drove me nuts (the two tables weigh 30lb. and 42lb.). I had trouble aligning the motors with the platters, and found it to be a real pain to level. But once leveled I discovered a couple new problems.
The top floating piece was not heavy enough, so I corrected this with a new top about an inch thick. Really helped. I then removed the sand, and used washed sand like they sell in the pet shop. Sealed the box with caulk, and added the thicker top. Results were better, but not much better than before. It did sound a little better. Then on a whim I took a 6" hole saw and cut a piece out of the top to isolate the motor. This helped!, but also became a monster to align. The testing equipment found the motor rpm moving while trying to align itself. But with the one exception of building a third top for the box I lived with it for two years.

*with all the above I also had a cartridge problem that sorta stumped me. I switch from the Grado to a Denon D103, and the sound became sorta dull and thick (I wouldn't say lifeless).

*I now switch speakers to the new Odysseys, and things are not as good with the table. (I should note here that they will go down to an honet 30Hz and some think they'll do 25Hz). They really filled the room up with sound, and had bass that I never knew could be there (I'm not a bass nut)

*So now I happen to see an ad for a Ginko Cloud that made for the VPI HRX table, and bought it. Out goes the sand box! (besides it's pretty) Now I no longer have access to the testing equipment, but still have good base lines built up.
Well with the Ginko the Denon now sounds completely different in a better way. I checked the table base with a stethoscope, and could hear vibrations (but from where?) I was using the tungstin pucks, so I felt I couldn't do much better there. I then further isolated the motor with a home brew Sorbathane pad, and shimed the motor dead level again with the table. Now things really opened up. Even the bass got tighter, but the real improvment was in the highs.
Still I always knew the string was not right and was also acting like another antenna.

*Now one table came with cotten thread as a drive string, and the other used plain old monofilment fishing line (always knew this was junk). You could feel the string vibrating as it played a tune! Well I tried some other materials, and some worked well and others would sorta stretch and then catch back up. I needed something with little stretch and a very small knot while being very supple. Tried 12lb. flyline backing (gelspun for an even smaller line diameter), and it would have been ideal except that I just couldn't get a good small knot. Tried some of the high dollar low stretch fishing lines, but were toostiff for my liking. Then I decided to try real silk thread, but ran accross this Kevlar / silk combo. It worked with no felt vibration in it. Highs got a littler better yet, but no improvment in the bass. Like I said I have a couple more experiments up my sleeve yet to do.

     I understand what you are saying about isolation and decoupling, but I think you are trying to pick atoms from the air. It's all applied mechanics here, and your trying to stop vectors of force from moving. The pucks acted both as decouplers and isolation devices. All I know is that it works.
gary

** Almost forgot! It's common knowledge that suspended tables have softer and warmer bass than the ridgid tables like I use. Noticed that you spoke of the Teres tables. I've never seen one in the real so I won't comment on them, but they are a beautifull looker. Tape will stretch over time, and this is a common factor with taper recording. I just don't trust it or the joint to connect it (although it's probably OK)
glt

[2bigears]

  to my delight,my NEXT -TT will be a "Rega- P9",price was right,used but new condition.just needs a cart and not really sure what to load it with??.will face this tt off with the Technics 1210M5G.i gotta try this table as it comes with a nice price.the Raven i was lookin' at is 6k,2k for a good used arm and a k note for a good cart adds up faster than a blink of an eye.10,000.00 bucks is crazy money,kinda breaks the bank.the Rega has not a bad rep,good reviews on the most part.we will see 

[doug s.]

to my delight,my NEXT -TT will be a "Rega- P9",price was right,used but new condition.just needs a cart and not really sure what to load it with??.will face this tt off with the Technics 1210M5G.i gotta try this table as it comes with a nice price.the Raven i was lookin' at is 6k,2k for a good used arm and a k note for a good cart adds up faster than a blink of an eye.10,000.00 bucks is crazy money,kinda breaks the bank.the Rega has not a bad rep,good reviews on the most part.we will see 

a lateral move from what you have, imo.  a tweaked empire w/upgraded arm would be better than either.  let us know what you think w/the p9-sl1200 comparison...

doug s.

[TheChairGuy]

That'll be an interesting face-off...Rega's have good second hand values, so you'll be able to sell it off without much of a beating if it doesn't fare well in comparison.

The P9 has a well regulated power supply and the platter is light..if it can keep timing/speed issues well and is quieter than the Technics, you got a shot of liking it as the arm is very good on it. 

Either way, both decks no fuss kinda' devices (except that they are both manually operated).  Set up and go is a nice thing when you can find it with vinyl playback 

John

[2bigears]

   sideways is not what i want to hear . the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ??

[TheChairGuy]

  sideways is not what i want to hear . the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ??

2BE, the only thing that matters is how you like or relatively dislike it. You cannot always rely on others opinions as you are inherently different than anyone else.  You toss your hat into the ring and take you chances (but report back extensively so we can all learn from your mistake or good fortune  )

Rega's have a very good resale for good reason...folks like 'em.

Doug carefully prefaces his likes and dislikes with an 'imo'....and it really is an individual's decision as it's your money. 

A great arm on a decent deck should play well...and save you $7K in your Piggie Bank for a while.

Ciao, John

[2bigears]

   i hear-ya.it's not a bad gig to play with a couple g's.it's the 10 grand stuff that drives ya crazy.what do the Rega 9's like for carts ???? gotta line that up yet. thks 

[giantsteps]

 Wrong thread 


Frank

[doug s.]

  sideways is not what i want to hear . the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ??

rega will do a lot right.  which is why it will be as good as the technics.     sometime more money doesn't buy "better".     rega arms are bargains, i can't say i feel the same way about their turntables.  they are decent, but not world-beaters, even at their prices.  and yes - as the chairguy emphasizes - imo! 

empires are definitely better, imo - i had a bone-stock un-refurb'd empire 208, w/an rs-labs rs-a1 tonearm on it, (this tonearm doesn't really need to be mounted, i yust had mine sitting there...), and the sound was so close to my mkv-upgraded original oracle w/origin-live dc motor kit & o-l rb250 arm, it made me think more than twice...  i would have likely kept that arm, if i could have figured out a simple way to get an auto-lift device to work on it.  instead, i traded it straight across for an o-l silver taper, o-l's then-best arm, before they went hog-wild & came out w/their encounter line.  i sold the empire w/the surprisingly good wintage grado arm it came with...  since then, i have picked up an empire 498, which awaits a project to mount my o-l rb250 on to it....  the 498 is the rare empire w/the suspension of the later 598/698 empires & the heavier platter of the earlier ones...

here's a pic of the rs-labs arm:


re: my raving about the empires, all i can say is atma-sphere, a highly respected audio mfr, likes them so much, they offer an upgrade for the early models - supply your old empire & $2800, & they will give you this (tonearm extra, of course!):

http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/208.html


while i am sure it's great, i am also sure one can do the same for far less cash, w/simpler mods.  and, even bone-stock, they are nothing to sneeze at...

of course, as always, & especially in audio - ymmv!

doug s.

[2bigears]

thks guys.i really love plug and play,and this works with the Rega decks.i love 60% off with an as new current model machine.if i did go sideways,i will know soon.i do know one thing,the Rega would sell more easily before the 1210.does any cart jump out at ya to fit on the P9's ?? thks 

[lazydays]

 sideways is not what i want to hear . the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ??

setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary

[doug s.]

setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary

in your opinion?   

in my opinion that might be true - if the technics were not "set up right"...   

doug s.

[mcrespo71]

  sideways is not what i want to hear . the P9 sells for about 6 times the money the 1210 goes for.this can't be right.i quess it will be a shoot-out for a poor boy that just can't see spending 10 large on a deck.that Rega has to do something right ??

setup right the P9 will smoke the Technics anyday of the week!! And twice on Sunday!
gary

I'm not sure about smoking the Technics, since I haven't heard the 1210.  I have heard a P9 and it's absolutely a killer turntable.  It times as well as my Roksan Xerxes 20 and has enormous and tight bass.  I've heard it only with Dynavector cartridges- from the 17D2 to a Te Kaitora Rua (which I own).  I've heard  other P9 owners use it with the Dynavector XX2 to good results.  Bottom line, Dynavectors and Rega arms go very well together.

[2bigears]

   thks for the cart advice.i will need to buy one in the next few days.i don't know a whole lot on the tt front,but the 1210M5G sells for say 600 bucks while the P9 sells for nearly ten times that here in Canada,one add says 5750.00.[actually the same cost as a Raven].Ten times anything has to make some kind of difference  it also looks plug and play,good for tt guys starting out.  if anyone wants to sell a good cart to match,let me know....thks  Pat

[Wayner]

The thing that stops me from buying the big dollar deck is the cost to performance issue. I think I'm close to "great vinyl" now and if I spend the big bucks, could I possibly be anything less than disappointed?

I have always believed that a properly set up deck with proper tweakage will bring the biggest bang for the buck and if it doesn't, pass it along for someone else. Taking a hit in the bean for 5+K is not my idea of fun. I know I'm going to expect the deck to sound 10 times better than my Technics SL-1200 and quite frankly I'm sure it's not possible. Besides, so someone has a 10K deck and it's set up like an idiot did it. Will that trounce my el-cheapo SL? I really don't think so. So, in my head you have 4 equations to deal with:

1. Cheap TT set up like an idiot.
2. Cheap TT set up like a master did it.
3. Big Buck table set up like and idiot.

and 4th:

Big Buck table set up like the master did it.

On the one hand If 1 and 3 are compared, I think they will sound very similar. Bad.
If 2 and 4 are compared, I don't think we are going to have even a 10 to 15% improvement (if that can even be judged). The records that have scratches with both go tic-tic-tic. The records that are clean will both sound great.

Wayner

[TONEPUB]

It depends on a number of factors, do you have a system capable of resolving
the difference, and do you have a great phono preamp and cartridge to go along
with it?

If so, the P9 will reveal considerably more music than the SL1200.  I have one
here that we use as one of our reference and it's been set up as far as an SL1200
can be.

It's an awesome budget table and offers a ton of performance for the money.
I've heard plenty of the various mods and they offer more performance, again
at a good value, but comparing this table to the better decks like Sota, Oracle,
SME, the P9 and even the Continuum (which we had the opportunity to have
in the studio for three months), it's not even close.

We did a test, where everything else in the system was identical and we compared
turntable A to turntable B, with a Nagra VPS, which has two inputs and we used
a few MoFi albums that are the same title, but only one number apart.

The $5000 Dynavector XV-1s cartridge was used on both tables, so there
would be no question that the cartridge was what was holding either
of the tables back, nor would the rest of the system.

All tables were set up with the Acoustic Sounds Protractor, AS test
record, a Digital multimeter and an oscilloscope.  Each time we switched
tables, VTA, VTF, anti skate and azimuth were optimized.

The Continuum Criterion was used as Table B and we were able to
easliy switch back and forth between table A and B with the same
cart and the same record.

We started with the SL1200 and worked our way up to a Rega P3-24,
a VPI Scoutmaster, an Oracle Delphi V, the SOTA Nova, Rega P9,
SME 10 and then the Raven Two.  In the middle of things I had a friend
bring over a 1200 with most of the KAB mods.

Again the 1200 is incredibly good for the price, but just like the P3,
only offers up the basics when it comes to true high end sound reproduction.

If I had to compare it, I would compare the SL1200 to the Vandersteen 2Ce
in the sense that it does give you a ton of sound for a very reasonable price.

However, the nuances that are available in the big bucks stuff is not there.

That doesn't mean the SL1200 isn't a great deal, it is. And there are a lot
of happy 1200 (and Vandersteen) customers out there.

We also found out that the 1200, when close attention was payed to setup
was capable of a lot more sound than we intially thought, again showing
what a bargain this deck truly is.  It's just that most people aren't going to
go buy 1000 dollars worth of test equipment to dial in a 300 dollar table.

But if you already have this stuff around, much more can be pulled out
of this humble deck, as you can with the rega p3.  These two are probably
the best bang for the buck tables on the market today....

Well, that's the results of two weeks of screwing around in my life...