[hurdy_gurdyman]

edit: have not heard the cheaper Performance Grade SI

With around $1000 difference in price, one would naturally expect the Sterling Silver Iris's to sound better than the Performance grade Silver Iris's. The PSI's do great at their price point, and I personally believe they sound as good as many speakers costing much more, but they are not the do-all, be-all of speakers. The SSI's come much closer to being that, IMO. aa Of course, I may be biased... 

Dave

[dewar]

"me im wondering why the genius of a 15" + 1" design just flew past all speaker manufacturer's on the planet..? is there a reason why noone uses anything larger than 8" for midrange?"


I've been thinking about this and I think the answer is the same answer as to the question of why most speakers aren't open baffle designs. It didnt take me 4 years of economics study or 6 months or audio retail experience to realize that the vast majority of people are not adventurous enough to 'step outside the box'. And I'm not thinking of people on audio forums, which make up a tiny minority of the speaker buying public. By deviating from the general perception of what a loudspeaker should look (and sound) like, manufacturers largely limit their sales to a minority of informed or curios shoppers. No upstart could ever hope to get as big or successful as B&W or Dynaudio by producing only 15" OB coaxials, and successful is what most people want to be. Thankfully Mr Hawthorne has a day job, not to mention the curiosity and ears to venture from the trodden path.

[hurdy_gurdyman]

In addition to what Dewar has said, we need to go back in history. There have been many successful 15 in woofers/1 inch compression drivers. Electro-Voice, Jensen, Altec and others had these designs back in the 50's/60's and they were very successful at the time (some of them even used OB designs). Trends change, and the popular speakers using two way 8 inch or smaller drivers became popular, as well as three way's with modest sized midrange drivers. Other popular ideas came and went according to the trends at the time. "All things old are new again" seems to define the hi-fi industry. Tubes, especially older triode SET designs, are having a strong comeback but are not exactly mainstream yet. Horns, especially high frequency horns, are actually becoming mainstream again after a couple of decades in disfavor. Open baffle is having a comeback and has models in mainstream home theatre systems as well as conventional two way systems. Its no surprise that big two way coaxial drivers are actually having a comeback as well. Its not just Hawthorne Audio, either. There must be at least a dozen companies offering these now. Remember, no speaker design is perfect. They all have compromises. What one design does well means it does something else not so well.People have to choose what does it for them. The big coaxial in open baffle is "doing it" for a lot of folks who have ventured into this, folks who have tried much more expensive "conventional" designs. Nobody will be able to convince them to go back to conventional now.
It's too bad so many people put down non-conventional thinking and designs and try and talk people out of trying something new (or very old) just because it didn't "do it" for them. The hi-fi world is big enough for all types of designs and should just let the market decide.
I'm not trying to promote here, but I happen to know that of the hundreds of speakers that Hawthorne Audio has sold, the vast majority of their owners are very happy with their purchase and have no intentions of going back to conventional ways of thinking. They are now "out of the box", so to speak.

Dave

[gooberdude]

From HGD

"I'm not trying to promote here, but I happen to know that of the hundreds of speakers that Hawthorne Audio has sold, the vast majority of their owners are very happy with their purchase and have no intentions of going back to conventional ways of thinking. They are now "out of the box", so to speak."


Count me as 1 of those folks!



I do not feel any sort of 'my design is better than yours' attitude...but i do feel bad for boxed speaker owners.


They are only hearing 1/2 the music!!!     

[JLM]

I stopped by Hurdy Gurdy Dave's yesterday and had a chance to hear Sterling 15 and 10s (not quite ready for primetime).  Both pairs used the same tweeters, in fact Dave swapped them over between change over.  (Dave designs/builds the Hawthorne crossovers.)  Both were mounted are small rectangular baffles, not much bigger that the drivers, that were tilted back slightly.  Dave's living room is about 12 ft x 20 ft with typical furnishings.  Dave also has a dual Augie I.B. (infinite baffle) mounted in the living room ceiling. Differences:

The 15s sound fuller, with more bass extension, more "in your chest" presence, and slightly more efficient.  The large cap/inductor makes the Sterling 15 less conducive to the tinest flea amps, even though the numbers wouldn't reveal it.

The 10s lacked a bit of foundational bass (turning his infinite baffle subs on/off was rather subtle on "ordinarially heavy" bass music, but just enough to bug you if you're used to having it) but after warm up seemed better balanced (less treble roll off) and clearer. 

The choice between them is more a matter of taste than superiority (or cost as the difference in content will be quite small).  I enjoyed them (and conversation with Dave) enough to stay a bit too late.  Based on this session my personal order of preference would be 10s with I.B., 15s with I.B., 15s without I.B., and finally 10s without I.B.

Thanks again Dave for inviting me over!

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Jeff,

Next time at least give me a half an hours warning so I can vacuum up the husky hairs (shedding season right now) and clean off the flat surfaces that seem to accumulate "stuff". 

Had a good time, though.

Dave

[Bob in St. Louis]

That hair should provide excellent diffusion.

[Michael V]

The 15s sound fuller, with more bass extension, more "in your chest" presence, and slightly more efficient.  The large cap/inductor makes the Sterling 15 less conducive to the tinest flea amps, even though the numbers wouldn't reveal it.

The 10s lacked a bit of foundational bass (turning his infinite baffle subs on/off was rather subtle on "ordinarially heavy" bass music, but just enough to bug you if you're used to having it) but after warm up seemed better balanced (less treble roll off) and clearer. 

Interesting report,thanks for sharing.  You would say the 15" sounds rolled off?  Not surprisingly that's part of my impression of the Mundorf caps used in the crossover - very very, good overall, but a little dark.

Also, can you explain your comment about it not being tube-friendly?

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Also, can you explain your comment about it not being tube-friendly?

I can't speak for Jeff, but I think he was only referring to very tiny tube amps, such as little one watt SET's. I can see where some of these wouldn't quite get loud enough (on the SSI's) for some people, depending on musical tastes. I have no experience with these on any of the SI line. I do know of a couple people with different brands of 6 watt SEP's that claim they do fine. We need to hear from more people with SSI's and tiny SET's. I suspect it will vary with how much volume is enough...

Dave

[gooberdude]

I had a Decware SE84C+ for about 2 weeks.    In my 25' x 15' room, with my tastes, there's no way 2 wpc would suffice.   The little amp could not power the Sterlings to normal listening levels.   I use several difft sources, all of fairly low output around 1V.  This is a contributor to my experience for sure, however I was using a difft tube in the amp that made its output more to compensate for the 1V source output (per Steve Deckert's instructions)


I've considered saving up for a Decware Taboo....6 wpc might be the ticket.     


Currently though, 24wpc of push/pull tube-ness is perfect for my Sterlings.   I would not want any less...


It would be like buying a Ferrari 360 with a 4 cylinder installed   



As I was demo'ing the Decware I e-mailed Darrel Hawthorne to make sure I wasn't crazy.  He responded in kind stating
that its wild how the Sterlings beg to get turned up, and that ultimately he wants to procure a good 40 wpc of push/pull. 

I'm pretty sure Darrel wants to listen louder than me though!!   the phrase 'live concert levels' was involved   

[hurdy_gurdyman]

It would be very cool for Hawthorne Audio to come up with a medium power PP tube amp. I'd probably try and sell my TAD-60 and buy one. BTW, the TAD-60 drives both the 10 and 15 SSI's with authority. It's 45 watt/ch in ultra-linear mode, and even it's 22 watt/ch in Triode mode, is all any sane person would want in a normal living room setting. The Sterlings can handle more, but my living room can't. The room overloads before either speakers or amp shows any sign of distress (my ears overload, too).

I did use the SSI's with a six watt spud amp. I don't know if it would play loud enough for me or not, as it didn't have enough gain without a preamp to reach full power with my components. It did control the 15 SSI's well, though. Someday I'll have a tube preamp...

Dave

[Michael V]

I used a few different amps on my Silver Iris's.  I felt the 3.5W of a SE 2A3 was enough power for medium-sized listening rooms.  But sonically, I think PP or (gasp) solid state amps are a better match for the SI's.

[Dmason]

Geez, if you guys are needing that kind of juice to get it right with a high efficiency cone you must be rocking on. I would have thought that 2A3 would drive the daylights, under sane/average/typical conditions. 45 tube watts is A-LOT of watts...

I heard the Sterlings, and think Dave did a cracking job of mating a large-calibre cone to a small-calibre compression driver. It doesnt get much more difficult than that. I thought they sounded great.

There are buckets of good used PP amps on Audio-Gone.



And last, Dave, what kinda tube is a SIX watt spud amp using? 845?

[hurdy_gurdyman]

And last, Dave, what kinda tube is a SIX watt spud amp using? 845?

I went and looked it up. I seem to have been confused. The Spud has only 3 watts. http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/spud_kit.htm  It was the Decware Integrated that had 6 watts. I've heard SI's on each amp. The Decware had plenty of power, but the Spud needed a preamp in my system.

Aging seems to be affecting the memory, among other things... 

Dave

[Dmason]

Thanks, Dave,  ..that is hardly a memory issue; you are firing on more cylinders than most twenty year olds. I thought it was the little Jef Larsen amp... anyhoo, the Sterlings sounding stunning. Compliments to the chef...

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Thanks, Dave,  ..that is hardly a memory issue; you are firing on more cylinders than most twenty year olds. I thought it was the little Jef Larsen amp... anyhoo, the Sterlings sounding stunning. Compliments to the chef...

Dan,

A twenty year old don't even have all their cylinders yet to fire. That don't happen until after adolescence (about 30 or so).

Thanks for the compliment, but I can't take all, or even most, of the credit. Darrel H and the engineers at Eminence and Radian came up with the speaker, and Jerrod H helped a lot with the XO. It was a team effort.

Dave

[JLM]

Slow to get back in...

By saying that the Sterling 15 was not as flea amp friendly as the Silver 15, I was relaying what Dave told me.  But it makes sense based on the much larger crossover component sizes.  I strongly favor the amp being big enough to have a commanding grip on the speaker and these are large drivers, so I support the idea of say 20 wpc or more for them.

The Sterling 15 certainly is weighted towards the bass more than the Sterling 10, and yes even the graphs Dave showed me of the two would also support the impression that the 15 is rolled off at the high frequencies compared to the 10.

Keep in mind that most of the Decware amps are biased to a 2 - 4 ohm load, so output at a nominal 8 ohms (like the Hawthorne speakers) is even lower.  Those Decwares are good sounding flea amps, but still serve a very limited number of quality matched speakers.

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Slow to get back in...

By saying that the Sterling 15 was not as flea amp friendly as the Silver 15, I was relaying what Dave told me.  But it makes sense based on the much larger crossover component sizes.  I strongly favor the amp being big enough to have a commanding grip on the speaker and these are large drivers, so I support the idea of say 20 wpc or more for them.

Jeff,

I was mostly referring to a few emails I've received and some posts I've read where some people couldn't get quite enough power from a tiny flea amp (1-2 watts) for the 15 SSI's but didn't seem to have a problem with the 15 PSI's. I have no personal experience on along this line, though. I can only speculate, but the SSI has a very large inductor crossed for a low-pass around 380 Hz, while the PSI has a much smaller inductor used as a notch-filter crossed up around 2 kHz. The PSI is almost run like a fullrange driver with little in the signal path, while the SSI has a BIG inductor. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that this is what may cause the marginal power issue. Again, this will vary with what amp is being used and how loud someone likes their music. I know of a couple of people using the Vaughn Audio Carina on the SSI and think it's just fine. I think flea power results will vary according to individual needs.

The Sterling 15 certainly is weighted towards the bass more than the Sterling 10, and yes even the graphs Dave showed me of the two would also support the impression that the 15 is rolled off at the high frequencies compared to the 10.

I only showed you graphs of the 15 PSI and the 15 SSI, as I couldn't seem to find my 10 PSI graphs and I haven't printed any 10 SSI graphs yet. The 15 PSI does have less overall treble than than the 15 SSI does due to a dip starting in the 10-12 kHz area continuing up to around 16 kHz. Its enough to make a difference. One can't expect a $30 tweeter to have as good of treble as a $175 tweeter does. Both the 15 SSI and the 10 SSI have the same tweeter and the same treble extension.
The 15 drivers obviously have more bass than the 10 inch drivers.

Keep in mind that most of the Decware amps are biased to a 2 - 4 ohm load, so output at a nominal 8 ohms (like the Hawthorne speakers) is even lower.  Those Decwares are good sounding flea amps, but still serve a very limited number of quality matched speakers.

The Decware Integrated is made for a nominal 6 ohm load, I believe, not the 2-4 ohm load the smaller Select and similar models are. I haven't heard any of the SI's with the smaller Decware amps and suspect they would not be a particularly good match, though I can't say for sure without hearing them. I have heard Darrel's Decware Integrated (the older style) drive his PSI's. It rocked pretty good!

Dave

[JLM]

Thanks Dave, I get a headache with all those nomenclatures.      

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Thanks Dave, I get a headache with all those nomenclatures.      

We went through a lot of talking in a short time, so it's easy to get a bit confused.

Dave