[Geardaddy]

Kool guys.  Thanks for chiming in.   That review was interesting and confirms my belief that it is possible to create reference level listening with a computer-driven front end.  I still need to find a device that can work without a pre-amp without degrading the sound.  Whether a MAC sounds better than a PC (and with what operating system?) remains to be determined.  One central question that remains is what sound degradation does a CD player introduce that a HD does not and vis versa in terms of bit loss, jitter, etc.  Does streaming audio engender sound degradation?  Is it ultimately up to the DAC....as the following post from the MacForum would indicate:

Originally Posted by QuarterSwede 
Not so with an Airport Express if your using the optical out on it. It would be straight from your hard drive > wireless router > airport express > optical out > whatever high end receiver you have. It stays digital and unchanged until the DAC in the receiver converts it to an audio signal.

Assuming your CD is playing on the same receiver your Airport Express is: If you're hearing any difference between a CD and what's coming out through the optical out on an Airport Express, it's in your head. This is because it's exactly the same bits and bytes going through the same DAC and speakers.

CD > optical out = Hard drive > optical out

Exactly. In fact, to test this, they checksummed the result between the output from the back of a hi-end CD player digital output and the optical out on an AirPort express on a hi-fi forum I'm a member of, and the result was that there is no digital information lost at all when using the AirPort express. The weak chain was the DAC, which made it sound 'wooden' and slightly dull, limited bass extension and detail.

Sticking a decent DAC on the AirPort express will make it sound much better, and you could technically end up with a better sound than the CD player."
  [/b]

[mcgsxr]

I still need to find a device that can work without a pre-amp without degrading the sound.

I sold my tubed pre, highly modded DAC, and Monarchy SuperDIP after getting Bolder's mods to my SB3.  It runs directly into my power amp.  I run a single source (PC) system, I cannot play a cd anymore, in my main system, I would have to go upstairs and rip that music, in order to play it.

Doesn't phase me, I am totally sold on PC as front end, with this device, and lossless music stored outside the listening room - no noisy PC in the room etc.

[Geardaddy]

I sold my tubed pre, highly modded DAC, and Monarchy SuperDIP after getting Bolder's mods to my SB3.  It runs directly into my power amp.  I run a single source (PC) system, I cannot play a cd anymore, in my main system, I would have to go upstairs and rip that music, in order to play it.

Doesn't phase me, I am totally sold on PC as front end, with this device, and lossless music stored outside the listening room - no noisy PC in the room etc.

mcgsxr, that sounds sweet and is where I am headed.  I am tired of fiddling with CDs....

[Geardaddy]

mcgsxr , kool pics in your gallery.  Where are the shots with the translucent lake water from?

[mcgsxr]

Northern Ontario - http://www.ontarioparks.com/english/kill.html

[Geardaddy]

Very kool.  Here is a comparative review of various Squeezebox mods and CDPs, etc:

95bcwh07-29-06, 01:49 AM
All,
For the past one week I had been listening critically to two different modifications of Squeezebox: Bolder's modded SB2 and Redwine Audio modded 's SB3, I also compared them to 3 very highly regarded CD player, this thread summarizes my impression. I cannot stress enough that my conclusion are based on my "subjective" listening, I have no measurement to prove anything. Difference people will certainly prefers different sounds and may end up with difference conclusion. I prefers transparent and neutral sounding. Generall I find tube sound a little too "blurry" for me. So I hope you won't be surprise with my finding after knowing my preference.

My list of equipments:

speakers: Salk HT3
Amplifier: Bryston 4B-SST
Preamp/DAC: Tact 2.0S with Aberdeen PS and DAC

The two squeezebox I am comparing are:
- Bolder Modded SB2 with full mod, with Silver Slipstream Bybee Purifiers added to digital AND analog outs. Sonicap Gen 2 and Platinum bypass caps added to analog outs
- RWA fully mod SB3 (as described on RWA most current website)

Bolder's company also sent in two power supplies:
- The Ultimate PS Bolder Power Supply, built in Silver Par-Metal case with Jensen capacitors and new transformer and voltage regulator circuit with Silver internal wiring and 4) Bybee Purifiers
- Bolder Modded Elpac PS

Friends of mine also brought 3 CD players:
- Ayre CX-7
- Cary 303/300
- Rega Jupiter

And I am comparing the following setup:

#1 Bolder's Ultimate PS + Bolder modded SB2 analog out into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#2 Bolder's Ultimate PS + Bolder modded SB2 digital out into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#3 Bolder's Elpac PS + Bolder modded SB2 analog out into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#4 Bolder's Elpac PS + Bolder modded SB2 digital out into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#5 RWA modded SB3 analog out into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#6 RWA modded SB3 digital out into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#7 Ayre CX-7 analog out (Single Ended) into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#8 Ayre CX-7 digital out (AES/EBU) into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#9 Cary 303/300 analog out (Single Ended) into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#10 Cary 303/300 digital out (AES/EBU) into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#11 Rega Jupiter analog out (Single Ended) into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3
#12 Rega Jupiter digital out (S/PDIF) into Tact 2.0S into Bryston 4B-SST into HT3

Whenever Tact 2.0S was used, I set it to "bypass" mode.

The analog interconnect used in all setups was Bolder's custom-designed IC made from single crystal, solid core, cryo-treated, Silver wire. It has a Silver shield, terminated with Gold Bullet Plugs.

The digital IC between Bolder's SB2/Rega Jupiter and Tact is Bolder designed digital cable with WBT NextGen connectors (RCA to RCA).

The digital IC between RWA modded SB3 and Tact is the same digital cable designed by Bolder but with BNC to RCA termination.

Nordost VALHALLA AES/EBU digital IC were used between Ayre/Cary and Tact 2.0S.

The power cords for the Ultimate PS and for the Bolder's SB2 are all provided by Waynes.

The power cord for the Bryston 4B-SST is Bolder designed with built in Bybee.

The power cord for Tact 2.0S are Bolder's Nitro.

Bolder sent me too many cables and I might be confused with exactly what they're made of, but at least I tried my best to use the same cables for all setups. In general I find that difference in sound caused by cable are much more subtle than that caused by speakers, CDP, preamp and amp.

My reference cuts are:
- Eva Cassidy's "Fields of Gold" from the album "Live at Blues Alley"
- Arild Andersen's "Lines" from the album "The Triangle"
- Eric clapton's "Hey Hey" from the album "Unplugged"
- Johnny Hartman's "My one and only love" from the album "John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman"
- Donnell Jones's "Shorty (Got her eyes on me)" from the album "Where I wanna be"
- Toni Braxton's "Let it flow" from the album "Ultimate Toni Braxton"
- Rebecca Pidgeon's "Spanish Harlem" from the album "The Raven"

I do not have a "golden ear", the difference between each setup was quite subtle, I really had to listen to each for quite some time and switch between each of them using the same song over and over again. To my humble ears, here's the ranking (starting from the best):


1st place: Setup #1 Bolder SB2 with Ultimate PS analog out
2nd place: Setup #2 Bolder SB2 with Ultimate PS digital out
3rd place: Setup #4 Bolder SB2 with Elpac PS digital out
4th place: Setup #6 RWA SB3 digital out
5th place: Setup #4 Bolder SB2 with Elpac PS analog out
Joined 6th place: Setup #8 Ayre analog out, #10 Cary analog out
7th place: Cary 303/300 digital out
8th place: Ayre digital out
9th place: Setup #5 RWA SB3 analog out
10th place: Rega Jupiter digital out
11th place: Rega Juipter analog out


Because there're so much to write, but so little time to write it, I'm afraid I have to be brief. Basically, the difference between 1st place and 2nd place is pretty "noticeable". Setup#1 sounded so fluid and smooth, the midrange is fuller (abeit slightly forward), bass is dynamic, instruments hang in the air a little longer. Setup#2 is slightly more transparent, but leaner sound.

Setup#3 is actually pretty close to #2, maybe it's because they're using the same DAC in the Tact 2.0S. The difference is Setup#3 has slightly less air than Setup #2.

The 4th place is even closer to 3rd place, in many of the songs, I can hardly hear the difference, luckily with Toni Braxton's "Let it flow", I managed to notice that with Bolder's Elpac and SB2, the intruments and vocal seemed to blend better together, the mid/low was a little recessed when using RWA SB3.

Without the Ultimate PS, setup#5 (5th place) loses quite a bit of the magic of setup#1, it sound slightly analytical, less air, slightly recessed mid range compare to 4th place.

The difference between Cary analog out and Ayre analog out was very noticable, however, each has its own strengthes and weaknesses, Cary reaches down lower, has richer midrange, Ayre has more refine high. Certain songs sounded better with Cary, other sounded better with Ayre. Each has it's own signature (color) sound, the 5 setups that ranked above these two are more neutral sounding (which is my preference).

The difference between 7th place (Cary digital out) and 8th place (Ayre digital out) was less noticeable, I prefers Cary because it sounds smoother than Ayre.

The 9th place RWA SB3 analog out was very ok from mid to high although the high can be slightly edgy, the bass was slightly on the loose side compared to the 8 setups ranked above it.

Finally, regarding setup#11 and #12: Rega Jupiter had ok bass extension, lots of details but not so outstanding soundstaging, high frequency was a little etched and jagged

To tell you the truth, I could have lived with any of these 12 setups, because I'm talking about very subtle differences and it took me quite a while to train my ear to notice the differences, and the differences are song-dependent.

Over the past week, I have had 7 people coming in to listen to my setup, and they were all surprised by the sound from the squeezebox because in their mind, the squeezebox is a cheapo $300 gadget meant for general public. I had to explain to them that it takes some serious modification to bring the squeezebox up to the level of some of the best CD player/transport.

This is getting too long... I am not a professional reviewer so you have to forgive my bad grammar and dull writing. Nevertheless, I hope this reviews gives people some interest in testing out the potential of squeezebox, especially those that're modified by Bolders and RWA. After listening to their mods, I simply cannot see myself spending $3000 for a CDP.

[ted_b]

The volume pot on the TP is clean, and unless attenuated substantially will not lop off significant bits.

The transporter doesn't have a volume pot, and even if it did that sentence makes no sense.

I use volume pot as a general term; should have said volume control.  Yes, of course it's not a potentiomter; it's digital.   As far as reducing resolution (significant bits a play on words):
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39611

[The Computer Audiophile]

once you switch to a music server you'll never go back. The quality is certainly audiophile grade and having your library at your fingertips is even better.

[Geardaddy]

once you switch to a music server you'll never go back. The quality is certainly audiophile grade and having your library at your fingertips is even better.

What are the best sounding server systems you have heard or created?

[The Computer Audiophile]

My top three are systems by Hovland, Wavelength Audio, and Empirical Audio.

The first two were using Macs and the third was using a PC. The price ranges from a couple thousand dollars up to ... if you have to ask you can't afford it (neither can I so no worries). All three offer different features and do things a little different. The Hovland product is first and foremost a DAC that competes with models from dcs. It also offers the ability to use an iTunes library with the USB input. This type of product is certainly "where it's at" and I think it will be the way most music server / DAC combos operate once everything shakes out.

[Scott F.]

I guess I'll go ahead and chime in here too.

First, people seem to be hung up on the word "server" as if they need a dedicated computer to store their music. For those just now considering computer based music, this appears to be a very doting task, especially if you aren't overly computer savvy.

Getting your music on your computer is as easy as buying an external USB or Firewire hard drive (as big as you can afford). These things are literally plug and play if you are using XP. No formatting drives, no partitioning needed, no digging into the case to set jumper switches or adding cards, it is extremely easy. Personally, I'd suggest a pair, one for your music, one as a dedicated backup for your music. When (not if) your music drive crashes, you will be glad you have that back up drive in place. No, if your computer is in the same room as you and the noise is an issue with you, you may want to consider having your main computer and external drive(s) in a separate room.

With me, mine is in my home office on the first floor of my home. I have two separate listening rooms in my basement. Both use wireless Bolder modified SB3's. In my Office, I feed that system with a USB DAC or a Trends USB converter to a DAC using Foobar/ASIO as my front end.

I guess my point here is that for the guys just considering the move, don't be afraid, it is extremely simple. You don't need a "dedicated server" or RAID array to have music on your computer. Those terms scare the hell out of the newbies. A standard computer with external drives works just fine.

That and don't obsess over your interface device (SB/Transporter/USB DAC). Start off slow with a cheap USB DAC that sounds good like the Super Pro DAC from Audiomagus at $109 (also buy a good linear power supply). This will definately give you an idea how much better computer based audio is than CD player. After you live with that for a while, you absolutely work your way up the sonic scales to the SB/Transporter/Empirical/Wavelength (insert your favorite interface device).

Sorry, I felt the need to make the distinction in terms.

once you switch to a music server you'll never go back. The quality is certainly audiophile grade and having your library at your fingertips is even better.

What are the best sounding server systems you have heard or created?

By far the absolute best digital I've heard is Wayne at Bolder's latest uber mods on the SB3 and his MkIV power supply. Couple that to his modified Burson Buffer and I'm convinced it simply doesn't get any better at any price. Keep in mind, what sounds good in my reference system, my not work in yours. It's all about system synergy. Too many people don't take that into consideration.

Thats my take. I'll never go back to a dedicated CD player after hearing computer based music. I've got an Arcam and AH! Njoe Tjoeb gathering dust. They haven't been used in over three years now.


All that said, it still doesn't hold a candle to my turntable 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Very true Scott. Computer audio is so much easier than people think. This fact must be very evident for the high end industry to fully adopt "servers"

I personally dislike the word server for audio systems, but it is a correct use of the term unfortunately. It would be great if we could come up with a better catch phrase that really took off. Heck, with the right alliteration anything will catch on with the general public

[sts9fan]

Personally I think it is going to terrible when they catch on in the hifi world.  Then there are going to be 100 "music servers" that cost more then a high powered gaming computer.  I understand that we spend a lot more on audio gear then most but a computer is a computer.  There is no reason not to buy a "bare bones" computer and throw a few HDs in for ~$700 vs buying a 5k "server". 

[woodsyi]

All that said, it still doesn't hold a candle to my turntable 

The digital "server" makes playing music convenient for sure, but I have to agree vinyl still sounds better.  It's way inconvenient though. 

So I continue to fiddle with the digital -- new stuff is much cheaper on the digital media then on audiophile grade "virgin" vinyl.

[opaqueice]

I use volume pot as a general term; should have said volume control.  Yes, of course it's not a potentiomter; it's digital.   As far as reducing resolution (significant bits a play on words):
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39611

Well, perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't think you need to worry about bits at all:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=51288.0

[darrenyeats]

Another important point that non-computer people find hard to understand is that the "computer part" is pretty much perfect at moving data around.

This means the only place where sound quality can be degraded is the "in" part (where you rip music) and the "out" part (where you play the music, or at the very least provide a S/PDIF out signal to the rest of your system).

"In". In ripping terms, as long as you rip to a lossless format using a modern ripper (and the CD is unscratched of course) you WILL get a bit perfect copy. Several times I have tried ripping a CD on different machines and CD or DVD ROM drives to see if they read the same stuff. Every time they report EXACTLY the same data down to the last 1 and 0. I report this not as opinion but fact. AFAI can tell modern computer-based CD ripping is perfect (the reason, if you want to know, is down to intelligent error-detecting and correcting software). BTW this means your favourite CD transport cannot be better at reading discs than a computer (under the conditions stated above) - it can only be "as good". For those struggling with this idea..."get over it"

"Middle". This is what previous posters have called the Server part. In this discussion I include storage of the data on hard disks and transfer of the data across a computer network to a playing device (or computer with sound card). Thanks to well understood information technology principles (such as redundancy, error detection, correction, re-tries, buffering etc) this part is perfect. In the real world a degradation of the data would be accompanied by a total failure of the system. It either works or it doesn't, with no in-between! This means spending more on an "audiophile" home network is a nonsense. All working disks and networks perform the same whether they are cheap or expensive (commercial systems are more expensive sometimes, but only because they don't stop working so often).

"Out". As soon as you want to send an analogue / S/PDIF signal out you can introduce distortion / jitter. Hence different computer player solutions can have differing performance just as in classic hifi.

HTH,
Darren

[kbuzz3]

im one of the cpu terrified newbs endlessly debating about what type of "server" to use.  I think what was posted above about hard drives and backs via usb is one of the most comforting things ive heard re this issue.

OTHO "ripping" still scares me.  Heck id use it tunes but then the audiophile nevosa creeps and says -no youve got to use flac!!! And what about stuff that we already have on a hard drive saved as flac or shn-eg from a work cpu.

Finally, another thing i find scary is some of us are multiple pc and mac users. What if weve saved stuff via both pc and mac on differnt hard drives?  So its not that simple for some of us idiots

[Crimson]

Finally, another thing i find scary is some of us are multiple pc and mac users. What if weve saved stuff via both pc and mac on differnt hard drives?  So its not that simple for some of us idiots

It's very simple, especially if you use iTunes. Just save to a central location and any machine running iTunes will see the library. As far as whether iTunes is 'audiophile worthy', one of the more popular names in the industry (Gordon Rankin of Wavelength Audio) uses it (and, yes, he rips to Apple Lossless!).

[woodsyi]

Ripping is not hard.  Once you set up the software (Easy CD extractor is really easy but EAC is not bad either) just keep using the same external HD to store your files since you have to specify a location for any of the "music player" to access the files.   You can move ripped files around.  So you don't have to worry about using multiple PCs  as long as they end up on one place for play.  Every month or whenever you ripped a bunch of CDs,  copy the HD on another external HD for back up and you got a back up -- no RAID necessary.

[Scott F.]

The other thing to consider is simply ripping in the raw WAV format and never converting it to a lossless format. That way both Mac's and PC's read it. Your only sacrifices is hard drive space (about a 40% knock).....hard drive space is cheap. You can have a TB of external storage for under $300 (if you watch where you shop). A TB of storage in raw WAV will easily get you somewhere around 600-800 CD's. After that, just add more storage.