[Geardaddy]

I am interested in converting my two channel system source from a CDP to a dedicated music server.  My music is digitized and I am ready to rock.   I was wondering what experiences people have had in this domain and what technologies have optimized things sonically?  I know many have viewed this topic with a jaundiced eye, but I feel its the future and is a logical step for me.  Options I have researched at this point are:

1.  Sonos +/- DAC
2.  Slim Devices Transporter +/- DAC
3.  Slim Devices Transporter + Modwright tube output stage
4.  USB DAC options:  Exemplar tube DAC; moded Anagram Sonic2 from Karsten Elkjaer (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49031.0)   

[ted_b]

Dan + Dale equals D-licious.   

Dan's Transporter tube analog stage (which also is the 24/96 DAC output) is incredible.  Check out all of our comments on Dan's Circle.  Add this to your Dale Pitcher-designed Intuitive Design Summits, a reference transducer, and you've got an incredibly simple and straightforward powerhouse of a system.

[woodsyi]

Will you need to play a CD too or are you always going to rip new music into the server?  You will need a physical transport as well if you also want the option of playing direct from a disc.

[BobC]

Hmm, I'm considering the same things.

How about a Cambridge Audio 840C (has a digital input) + Squeezebox Duet (when it comes out)?

[Geardaddy]

Dan + Dale equals D-licious.   

Dan's Transporter tube analog stage (which also is the 24/96 DAC output) is incredible.  Check out all of our comments on Dan's Circle.  Add this to your Dale Pitcher-designed Intuitive Design Summits, a reference transducer, and you've got an incredibly simple and straightforward powerhouse of a system.

Thanks Ted.  The Modwright piece sounds tantalizing and Rx8man/Pat said it sounded sweet.  I am also a tube nut.  That being said, I do not have or plan on acquiring a pre-amp.  How does the Modwright unit do without a pre?

Will you need to play a CD too or are you always going to rip new music into the server?  You will need a physical transport as well if you also want the option of playing direct from a disc.

Good question.  I would hope to convert to the server alone assuming the sound was comparable.  Currently, I use a Granite Audio 657 without a pre-amp and that is as good as it gets (as least in my system)....this will obviously take some experimentation and A+Bing....

Hmm, I'm considering the same things.

How about a Cambridge Audio 840C (has a digital input) + Squeezebox Duet (when it comes out)?

What is the scoop with the Duet?  I think the Cambridge unit uses the Anagram Sonic2 that Karsten speaks highly of and was going to use in his DAC....

[kbuzz3]

not to confuse things but i am contemplating some of the same options.  Another one to examine may be the empirical audio offerings, eg. pace car or freeway.

I may jump in with a bolder modded squeezebox until this server things gets a bit mature...

[woodsyi]

Since neither squeezebox nor transporter (edit: it is reported to have 4 digital inputs) has digital inputs, you will also need an external DAC (along with a transport) if you need to play a disc.  Olive is more versatile in this area as it also has a CD transport.  There are so many different configurations that your budget and or rack space will decide what configuration works for you.  Inherently, ripped music in a lossless format should not be any worse than music straight off discs.  At some point it will just be bits being received into a DAC.  Of course some have higher bit depth and higher frequency.  How the bits get to the DAC, what chips are doing the conversion and how the DAC outputs the converted analog signal will determine how good it will sound.

One Box solutions

Server - Squeezebox2/3/duet or transporter -  amp - speakers.
Server - Sonos - amp - speakers.
Server - Olive - amp - speakers.
All three can use preamp and/or buffer too if you wish.  There are more music servers out there but I don't know too much about them.     

Digital out to DAC solutions

Server - Squeezebox2/3/duet or transporter - DAC - preamp - amp - speakers.
Server - Sonos - DAC - preamp - amp - speakers
Server - Olive - DAC - preamp - amp - speakers
Server/PC (DSP) - USB DAC - preamp - amp - speakers.
Server/PC (DSP)- Airport - DAC -preamp - Speakers.
Server/PC/Soundcard (DSP) - DAC - preamp - Speakers.

Digital out from a streaming device can have many different interfaces into a DAC: directly through SPDIF, Toslink or USB.  You can also utilize reclocker like Pace-car or Off Ramp/Freeway in addition.  There are also several DSP softwares with Foobar being one of them. 

Of course, there are mods available for any of these paths that will improve the sound.   I want to tabulate the cost of different paths some time in the near future for easy comparison.  We at AC can also try to organize a panel to describe the quality of sound from each configuration.  This will obviously be a qualitative description with or without direct comparison but it will be interesting to read various different takes. 

[ted_b]

Since neither squeezebox nor transporter has digital inputs, you will also need an external DAC (along with a transport) if you need to play a disc. 

??  Not true at all.  The Transporter has four digital inputs, and as a DAC it is wonderful (especially Modwright-ed). 

To answer Geardaddy's question: the Modwright TP-direct-to-amp is a nice alternative.  The volume pot on the TP is clean, and unless attenuated substantially will not lop off significant bits.

[woodsyi]

Since neither squeezebox nor transporter has digital inputs, you will also need an external DAC (along with a transport) if you need to play a disc. 

??  Not true at all.  The Transporter has four digital inputs, and as a DAC it is wonderful (especially Modwright-ed). 

I wasn't sure on that one since I don't have one.  From the description, it read like it only had word input.  My bad.  Squeezebox 2/3 does not have any digital input.  Does Duet have any?

[darrenyeats]

I own a Squeezebox 3 and I'm happy with it.

The new Duet is called that because it is two products in one: the new display-less Squeezebox Receiver (SBR) and the new Squeezebox Controller (SBC, a wifi-enabled remote with colour LCD on the remote which works with all Logitech players).

When used with an external DAC the performance of the SB3 and the SBR is identical. Apparently they have the same digital out circuits and have been measured to have *exactly* the same jitter i.e. just over 300ps.

A lot of people seem to have great results with an SB3 (or equally SBR) and external DAC e.g. Benchmark, Lavry etc. (I'm quite happy with the SB3 stand-alone, myself. It sounds good to me and it was no surprise to discover that its measured performance is fine. If you are intending to use the SB3 or SBR specifically as stand-alone I recommend you visit logitech.com to read their specs carefully to see which one suits you.)

Logitech's audiophile product is of course the Transporter (TP) which has better jitter figures for its digital out, but really it's a high performing stand-alone player. The measured performance of the Transporter is excellent and on about the same level as the Benchmark DAC1. Plenty of subjective reviews online and in the press, and here generally it is considered a very good player.

All these products have 24-bit DACs and the digital volume controls are 24-bit depth and well implemented. So with 16 bit material you can get 48db of attenuation before loss of rez to quantisation. On the physical noise side the TP can resolve about 21 bits so, with 16 bit material, you're looking at 30db of digital volume attenuation before any kind of loss even to the physical noise floor. In the right system, the ability to avoid a preamp pays dividends in sound quality IME.

There is a third-party software server-side DSP processor which can do DRC or EQ, if you wish. This is a neat solution which avoids using S/PDIF out to extra digital EQ boxes (although it will eat into the bit-depth of course) and is free.

Of course, there are mods available for any of these paths that will improve the sound.

I don't have a problem with this kind of statement but I think it should be phrased as opinion.

Logitech (or rather the part of Logitech that was Slim Devices) has a very loyal following, so you do get biased opinions sometimes. Perhaps I'm biased too. OTOH the fact there are so many loyal customers is something to think about.
Darren

[opaqueice]

The volume pot on the TP is clean, and unless attenuated substantially will not lop off significant bits.

The transporter doesn't have a volume pot, and even if it did that sentence makes no sense.

[bpape]

I have 2 SB3's and 1 SB2.  One is fully modded and the other 2 are stock - 1 runs digital out to an MHDT Labs Paradesea and an old Bolder Rev1 PS.  The stock/stock one is just background so no biggie.  The fully modded one (Bolder statement, Bolder PS) quite honestly has me to a point where I don't listen to anything else.  It's that good IMO. 

When I first purchased it, the wife rolled her eyes with that "well there's a waste of money".  A few months later, I moved it away from the living room down into my cave.  Took about 1 day for her to start complaining and asking where it went.  Had to get another one.  I hate it when that happens 

The usability and flexibility is great.  Basically unlimited storage capability on an external PC in another room with redundancy if you want to build the right kind of PC. 

My distributor emailed me that the new Duet is delayed in shipping according to Logitech until March 3rd now.  The remote will be available separately.  If it works half as well as it looks like it will, I think the Duet/controller will be an excellent product.

Just wanted to give you some info/opinions from more than just a technical point of view.

Bryan

[woodsyi]

Darren,

I have listened to many different versions of SB2 and SB3 from stock to very modded.  I don't have measured data but I have seen consensus of opinions at different gatherings that judicious modifications to a stock unit improves sound.  It's kind of hard not to notice more details being retrieved with all other conditions being equal in the room.   I am willing to say it's not just my opinion but a consensus of many opinions.  We were not double blinded however.  Each one of us also had varying amounts of beer and wine in our hearing system at different times.  So, I don't know if these collective findings will satisfy the diehard objectivists.     

[spudco]

Last May, we made the move to a computer based system:

Mac Mini
Airport Express Extreme
WD 500GB external drives(2)
Squeezebox 3 (2)

Since then, we have added another 2 750GB WD external drives.  The main drives are attached to the Airport Express Extreme unit.  The Squeezeboxes are driven wirelessly.

We use Itunes to load music (lossless of course).  I use CoverScout to find cover art and update it for use by Slimserver.  CoverScout is fair - can cause problems.  We have auto-backup running every week.  The backup drives are connected to the Mac Mini.

I haven't played a disk on my Audiomeca transport in 8 months and it is not even plugged in today.

For our main system, we use the SB3 digital output into an Audiomeca Dac and it is truly good sound.  For our second system, we use a SB3 direct.  It is OK.

I control everything via the Slimserver web interface and that is OK, not the best.  I am hoping to get an eee laptop soon for use as a dedicated remote.  I can also control stuff from my Phillips Pronto, but it is hard for my old eyes to see the display on the Squeezebox units.

I can say that this is the best thing to happen to our music since I bought my first pair of Dunlavy IVs 15 years ago!  I have discouvered just how good my music collection is and we listen to all kinds of stuff that stayed in the CD drawers before.  It is just so easy to hear anything you wish any time you wish - PLUS - Random play is like a weird soundtrack to your life and often loads tunes that haven't been played in years.  I have also created "playlists" that replicate all my mix disks and now can generate a party mix for a week long blow out (as if my old head could last that long...).

I believe the Macs are a great way to get started - also can be used to store movies and other stuff if you are inclined.  

If I had it to do over or had a few extra bucks to spend, I would definitely get a Modwright transporter.  I think it would be the very best sound you will ever need!

[Les Lammers]

not to confuse things but i am contemplating some of the same options.  Another one to examine may be the empirical audio offerings, eg. pace car or freeway.

I may jump in with a bolder modded squeezebox until this server things gets a bit mature...

I agree. I am going to wait till this Server thing matures a bit and comes down in price. I have a lot to learn B4 I jump in. 

[opaqueice]

One thing to bear in mind is that the Squeezebox/Transporter architecture is inherently superior to CD playback.  There are no moving parts in these devices, and the data is received asynchronously over a computer network at much faster than playback speed, cached in a large buffer, and then clocked out at the DAC using a local oscillator. 

With that setup there is no opportunity for jitter to affect the sound at the DAC (except whatever is introduced on the board traces passing between the buffer and the DAC).  With an external DAC, as always there will be jitter introduced by the S/PDIF connection, but the jitter at the SB output is low, and at the TP output it's SOTA.

My SB3 is connected to a Benchmark DAC 1 which serves as a preamp (I've also got a universal disc player I use for movies connected to it).  I'm very happy with both the sound and the convenience.  As others have noted, the best thing about this architecture is the ease with which you can access your music - the result is I listen to much more music than I did before, and that's what matters the most.

[Geardaddy]

Thanks for chiming in guys.  All the feedback is helpful.  I agree that things in the music server domain are fairly embryonic, and thus I am preceding with some degree of caution.  I definitely agree (at least on an intuitive level) that jitter is an important issue and I am curious to see if these issues described below are an actuality and effect sonics:

One thing to bear in mind is that the Squeezebox/Transporter architecture is inherently superior to CD playback.  There are no moving parts in these devices, and the data is received asynchronously over a computer network at much faster than playback speed, cached in a large buffer, and then clocked out at the DAC using a local oscillator. 

With that setup there is no opportunity for jitter to affect the sound at the DAC (except whatever is introduced on the board traces passing between the buffer and the DAC).  With an external DAC, as always there will be jitter introduced by the S/PDIF connection, but the jitter at the SB output is low, and at the TP output it's SOTA.

My SB3 is connected to a Benchmark DAC 1 which serves as a preamp (I've also got a universal disc player I use for movies connected to it).  I'm very happy with both the sound and the convenience.  As others have noted, the best thing about this architecture is the ease with which you can access your music - the result is I listen to much more music than I did before, and that's what matters the most.

I hate to admit this, but a lot of my decision is driven by convenience (call me a lazy Gen-Xer).  I have heard that testimony over and over that people listen to music more with a server in place.  Its synonymous to a digital camera...

Another issue on the horizon and in my mind is digitized hi rez music (Music Giants, etc).  I know Halcro (SS80 and 100) has processing software upgrades available and I am not sure who else does.  I would like this future server system to be able to decode hi rez and various other formats...to be expandable I guess.

[Geardaddy]

We at AC can also try to organize a panel to describe the quality of sound from each configuration.  This will obviously be a qualitative description with or without direct comparison but it will be interesting to read various different takes. 

I know I created a little bit of a stir recently with the showcase concept, but some form of panel would obviously be helpful...

[Les Lammers]

6 moons has a DAC and a MAC review http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/musicloverdigital/digital.html this looks like a good way to go using a DAC you like. I have been told that a Mac 'sounds' better than a PC but I don't know why.

[mcgsxr]

Also falling into the Gen X demographic, the convenience factor appealed to me greatly too.  But even moreso was the ability to never touch a disc again, and preserve the sound quality perfectly.

Factor in some mods by Wayne to my SB3, and I have had a static system for 2+ years now.

No no, not THAT kind of static!