[Images]

I listen almost exclusively to orchestral music.  I currently use a two-way design (vintage '99 or so) from BESL Engineering.  This was a kit using Scan Speak 8545K drivers with the 9500 tweeter in an MTM configuration.  Once they were assembled each box wieghed in at better than 100lbs.  Regardless of build quality, I think I can achieve a better rendering of an orchestral performance -- meaning a better soundstage, better resolution and better imaging -- with a speaker that moves more air. The speakers that have come to my attention are manufactured by VMPS and Magnepan.  When I did a search to see what comparisons have been posted on these two products, I found an epic, and contentious, thread that went on for 15 pages!

So, I would like to solicit your opinion, please.  The Maggie 1.6s are all I really know.  I have been interested in these, especially because of the very attractive price point.  The trouble is the WAF these lack.  If I put a speaker this size in our tropical condo, well let's just say there will be consequences.  This brings me to the VMPS RM30s.  These run about $3500/pair, so I guess a fair comparison with a Maggie of similar price would be the 3.6Rs.  Of course, the 3.6s are even a bit bigger than the 1.6s.  I think the only way I could get away with these woluld be to "stash' them at a right angle to the front wall, then pull them out three feet or so into the living room and rotate them 90 degrees when a listening session was in order.  (I probably would put little spikes on the floor once I got them setup properly.)  Then there is the question of beaming.  I have no experience with that, but would welcome your opinions.

The RM30s would be easier to place, and would have a much higher WAF.   I probably would go back to tubes to drive them.  (Currently I run Channel Island D100s -- I probably would have to trade up to the 200s for the Maggies.  Front end is a Tube Research Labs modified Sony DVD player with which I am surprisingly pleased , and I use a Modwright SWL 9.0SE preamp.)

So, I am open to suggestions, or just hearing the experience of other ACers that have tried to put an orchestra in their living room.  I am not stuck on these two products.  They just have caught my eye.  Oh, and I have heard rumored that Maggies may not like my environment.  I live on an island two blocks from the Pacific ocean with an inland waterway in my backyard.  If Maggies are prone to  corrosion, they are not going to be happy here.  I am trying to stay near $3.5K - $4K and, of course, less is fine.

I thank you all in advance...  And a Happy New Year to you all!

[JLM]

Being "stuck" on a Pacific island, I'm guessing you don't get out much.  (Where would you go on vacation when you live where we want to vacation?  BTW we just got 5 inches of snow overnight, so I might be a bit jealous.)  I say "stuck" because Maggies are perhaps the quintessential example of dipole speakers versus the VMPS that are quite mainstream designs.  Cats vs. dogs.  I can understand 15 pages of angst.

First, the standard questions:  room description (dimensions, speaker/listener layout, surfaces, furnishings); how loud do you listen?; interested in different musical genres?; any other aspects of sound reproduction are you after (detail, tone, warmth, dynamics, etc.).

As dipoles the Maggies must be set up "facing" you, in fact mid-bass and lower frequencies cancel in plane as the front and back out of phase signals meet.  Moving them routinely is not practical IME, so goodbye view or goodbye Maggies.  And planar speakers require your head to stay in a vice in order to image.

I like the precise imaging and coherency of the smaller VMPS models with the single wide frequency range ribbon driver.  If you want to "move air" a subwoofer will help (more than just the bass frequencies as the midrange is relieved of bass duty).  VMPS sells subs.  And their standmounted 626 could be moved in and out between listening and viewing.  With a sub they would be in your budget.  Hopefully one of the VMPS dealers will chime in soon.

Another consideration are vertical arrays.  Personnally I don't like stretching the vertical image floor to ceiling, but it gives you lots of driver surface area in typically a narrow profile.  Upside is the added efficiency of 2D versus 3D wave propagation.  Downside is that money goes for a dozen cheaper drivers versus the very nice drivers you currently have.

Don't give up on the D-100s until you find something better.  (My guess is that may not be easy.)

[Double Ugly]

Another consideration are vertical arrays. 

I agree.  If you want air moved, I'd seriously consider one of the newer GR Research arrays.

If you aren't a fan of the floor-to-ceiling image (like JLM and I), another option are the SP Technology designs.  They're two-ways, but the visceral dynamics are very impressive.

[BrianM]

For orchestral music, you want detail, transparency and imaging first, moving air second.  In your price range I would think -- based on their reputations -- that something from SP Tech (the Timepiece) or Salk Sound (the QW, V3, HT2 or HT3) would suit you very well and should have a high WAF.  Both of these makers allow you to avoid paying any dealer markup (at least that was my impression vis a vis the SP Techs) and to choose a custom finish (a decision you could perhaps involve your lovely wife in).  2 cents.

[ZLS]

The Shahanian (sic) loudspeakers are classic speakers that are ideal for large scale orchestral works.  I had a chance to listen to them playing symphonic music and they are indeed effective.  The physical dimensions are more squat than tall, but they do need to be out in the room to achieve the maximum soundstage.  Definitely worth an audition if possible.

[JLM]

Frankly many standmounts, when provided with a sub (or even two), should do a great job.  ACI right here at AC comes to mind.

Come to think of it, Mapleshade offers some different ideas about standmounts and products for floormounting smaller speakers that should really keep the speakers from interfering with your view.

[WGH]

How do you listen to the music? Speakers from SP Tech or Salk Sound will have a much more focused sweet spot than an omnidirectional speaker like the Shahinian's.

A speaker that was probably designed exclusively for orchestral music is the classic Klipshorn.

[Images]

My gratitude to the early responders.  (At least we know who isn't hung over. )  In the '90s I used a pair of Alon 1s.  These seemed to marry the best of both worlds with a forward-firing, enclosed 8 inch cone woofer and the mid and tweet being mounted without a baffle.  I liked them, but the Alon 2s were what I really wanted, however no $.  I sold them because of a new baby.   The ambiance provided by the baffleless design suited orchestral reproduction, IMHO.  This is one reason why I think I really would like the Maggies.  Truth is, though, I just don't have room for them, and moving them in and out of position sounds like an exercise in masochism.

The Shahanian, and even the Walsh, of the omni-directional school are models I have considered, but I fear the soundstage with such a design might be a bit "mushy" for my tastes, even if it is more realistic.  I am inclinded to agree with BrianM when he says "For orchestral music, you want detail, transparency and imaging first, moving air second."  So, lets dismiss the notion of moving air, which also means we can be less concerned with line arrays.  Where does that leave us?  The Salk offerings are well worth considering.  I also have wondered about Hyperion and Zu Adagios.  Sp Tech is unknown to me, so more websites to visit.  I will concede two points:  I want not only to hear a detailed rendering of the orchestra, but I also want a aural impression of the hall in which they are playing.  (Fussy, ain't I?)  Secondly, my confidence is shaken in two-way designs and I am reluctant to dip my toes in the subwoofer waters.  I think I (and probably my wife agrees) would be better served by a single box that approaches full-range reproduction.   Am I asking too much (at least for under $4K)? Oh, I should also add that I am persuaded by arguments that favor time and phase coherence, and first-order x-overs seem a good idea.  Now I am sure I am asking too much.   

       

[lonewolfny42]

How big is your room ?

[BrianM]

The Salk offerings are well worth considering.  I also have wondered about Hyperion and Zu Adagios.  Sp Tech is unknown to me, so more websites to visit.  I will concede two points:  I want not only to hear a detailed rendering of the orchestra, but I also want a aural impression of the hall in which they are playing.  (Fussy, ain't I?)  Secondly, my confidence is shaken in two-way designs and I am reluctant to dip my toes in the subwoofer waters.  I think I (and probably my wife agrees) would be better served by a single box that approaches full-range reproduction.   Am I asking too much (at least for under $4K)? Oh, I should also add that I am persuaded by arguments that favor time and phase coherence, and first-order x-overs seem a good idea.  Now I am sure I am asking too much.

I agree that you should avoid the subwoofer issue if possible.  In your price range, and with your listening preferences, there seems to be little reason to go that route.  I listen very happily to orchestral music on my standmount speakers which have an F3 of 40 Hz.  This basically gives you everything but the occasional floorshaking giant bass drum whacks.  All the speakers being considered here play at least into the 30s I believe.  The HT3s will cost more than $4000 unless you buy used.  People are raving about the new SP Tech Timepiece Mini, which is just under $3k and is advertised as "subwoofer optional."  I'm too lazy to look it up right now but I seem to remember its F3 being also around 40 Hz, too.  If you don't prefer a standmount -- or if you want to avoid a fairly long wait, as I gather the demand for Bob Smith's new speaker has necessitated -- I would probably be shopping for the Salk Veracity QW, for a floorstanding speaker under $4k.  It'll be drop-dead good looking, it features a transmission line bass good for mid-30s reproduction, it's a 2-way so only one crossover, it has the same mid-driver I'm familiar with, which I would describe as electrostatic-like in its transparency, and it uses a very fine ribbon tweeter which should give you a sense of the hall in spades.  Jim happens to describe it as great for classical music, and he builds one fine looking cabinet.

[Images]

How big is your room ?

Fourteen by twenty, plus a glassed in dinning room on one side adding another 8 feet.  The system, then, is centered along this long 28 foot wall.  Customary speaker placement is about 7 feet apart.  Of course I expect that to vary from one speaker design to another.   Listening position is just shy of 10 feet from speakers.

[Tweaker]

The Odyssey Audio Lorelei is a very highly regarded speaker here at the 'Circle. A two way design but one that may make you change your mind about them. satfrat has a pair and hopefully he'll chip in with his thoughts. Here's a link to a 6 Moons review:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/odyssey/lorelei.html

[TONEPUB]

Im a big fan of Avalon for classical music (or any kind of music for that matter)
but not in your price range...

That humidity thing might be a problem for anything...

But at least the weather is nice!

[RJ]

Ive been a Magnepan 1.6QR owner for about 5 years and was very happy with them for classical music listening. However, this fall I heard and then purchased a set of Harbeth Compact 7ES-3's. These speakers are amazing. Find a dealer and take a listen.

http://www.avguide.com/products/product-3876/

[Tweaker]

Strata Minis might also work for you:
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=96.1

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/onix-strata-mini-speakers-12-2006-part-1.html

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue31/strata_mini.htm

[TONEPUB]

I'll second the Harbeths!  I have a pair here and they are very good!
Forgot about them because they are at one of our reviewers houses...

Out of sight out of mind, but the Harbeths also do a fantastic job
with tonality!

[lonewolfny42]

Considering what you listen to - Classical....and what your looking for....the Harbeth speaker would fit the bill. I've heard a few Harbeth's...the 30...the 40....I liked them. The Harbeth HL-Compact 7ES-3 should be in the running....some good reviews.

[richidoo]

The Harbeth's polyprop mid driver is a little too polite for me. A bit of midrange detail edge is polished off and I miss it on chamber music, especially solo violin, singers and sax, all (should) have beautiful gritty detail in their tone.

I like the ACI Sapphire. A paper cone mid is the bomb for chamber music. Rip your heart out if the crossover allows the detail to flow. Ceramic coated aluminum, ceramic and magnesium SEAS drivers are awesome also, but takes a talented designer to make them into a great speaker, and usually expensive. Selah Audio is next town over from me, he designs with low distortion drivers like SEAS and Accuton.

For orchestral music where there is a lot of power in the bass, you might like something with large direct coupled bass driver(s) probably in a three way. The bass is so much cleaner that way. Small drivers trying to play bass through reflex or TL usually foof the detail in string bass, bass drums, and loud passages where bass info will cloud the mids. That said, the Acoustic Zen Adagios (TL design) with 100W Response Audio monoblocks was truly awesome on Beethoven 5th/Vanska. The room should not be too big with those. Wilson with AR Ref electronics in a well treated largish room takes the ultimate prize, you will never turn it off. If you have the budget that's the ticket for classical. I think the magic is in the amps, but the Wilsons let it all out, perfectly natural, no loss of scale or immediacy.
Rich

[PMAT]

VMPS RM-30M's. Artful and tasteful,with beautiful looks and sound. WAF is fantastic.

[stvnharr]

I listen almost exclusively to orchestral music.  I currently use a two-way design (vintage '99 or so) from BESL Engineering.  This was a kit using Scan Speak 8545K drivers with the 9500 tweeter in an MTM configuration.  Once they were assembled each box wieghed in at better than 100lbs.  Regardless of build quality, I think I can achieve a better rendering of an orchestral performance -- meaning a better soundstage, better resolution and better imaging -- with a speaker that moves more air. The speakers that have come to my attention are manufactured by VMPS and Magnepan.  When I did a search to see what comparisons have been posted on these two products, I found an epic, and contentious, thread that went on for 15 pages!

So, I would like to solicit your opinion, please.  The Maggie 1.6s are all I really know.  I have been interested in these, especially because of the very attractive price point.  The trouble is the WAF these lack.  If I put a speaker this size in our tropical condo, well let's just say there will be consequences.  This brings me to the VMPS RM30s.  These run about $3500/pair, so I guess a fair comparison with a Maggie of similar price would be the 3.6Rs.  Of course, the 3.6s are even a bit bigger than the 1.6s.  I think the only way I could get away with these woluld be to "stash' them at a right angle to the front wall, then pull them out three feet or so into the living room and rotate them 90 degrees when a listening session was in order.  (I probably would put little spikes on the floor once I got them setup properly.)  Then there is the question of beaming.  I have no experience with that, but would welcome your opinions.

The RM30s would be easier to place, and would have a much higher WAF.   I probably would go back to tubes to drive them.  (Currently I run Channel Island D100s -- I probably would have to trade up to the 200s for the Maggies.  Front end is a Tube Research Labs modified Sony DVD player with which I am surprisingly pleased , and I use a Modwright SWL 9.0SE preamp.)

So, I am open to suggestions, or just hearing the experience of other ACers that have tried to put an orchestra in their living room.  I am not stuck on these two products.  They just have caught my eye.  Oh, and I have heard rumored that Maggies may not like my environment.  I live on an island two blocks from the Pacific ocean with an inland waterway in my backyard.  If Maggies are prone to  corrosion, they are not going to be happy here.  I am trying to stay near $3.5K - $4K and, of course, less is fine.

I thank you all in advance...  And a Happy New Year to you all!

Hello,
I too listen mostly to classical orchestral music and find it a trying experience to get the full sound and power of 80-100 musicians into the listening room.  You have a good sized music room, and that helps as much as anything as no listening room comes anywhere near the size of a concert hall.
If the BESL MTM's aren't doing it for you anymore, you'll have to go to a largish full sized 3 way.  There are a lot of them out there.  In your price range, you'll have to think used.  I'd look at Avalons, B&W 803's are very good, Vienna Acoustics Beethoven's, Rick Craig's 3 ways, or Jim Salk's HT3's.  If you like the VMPS options, they are nice too.
Some have mentioned Harbeth's and I've owned or listened to most models thru the years.  They all sit on stands, and you may be happier with a floorstander.
Some times Waveform speakers come available on the used market. These are wonderful speakers, though sadly 7 years out of production now.
Good luck in your search.  I've heard all the above mentioned speakers, and find them all pretty good options.