[PSP]

I would say that large and small-scale orchestral music accounts for at least 80% of my listening.  I have a large room (L-shaped, 38 x 17 feet on the long dimension and 23 x 16 on the short dimension) and I like to listen at levels from low (for reading and conversation) to "pretty close to real" concert hall levels.  For the last year I have been listening to Linkwitz Orions ( http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html ) and I can recommend them whole-heartedly for all music, but they seem to be made for large scale classical works.  The Orions are capable of playing softly, they can play loud with no apparent distortion (that's what I hear!), and on good recordings image extremely well.  IMO, they make music and they come very close to the sound of the live unamplified event.  Good music + a good recording + the Orions will stir your soul and--IMO--bring you very, very close to the performance and the artist's intent.

I live in Minneapolis and one night I listened to Osmo Vanska lead the Minnesota Orchestra in Beethoven's 1st Symphony at Orchestra Hall.  A couple of hours later I had the BIS SACD recording of Beethoven's 3rd (Vanska, Minnesota Orchestra, recorded in Orchestra Hall) playing at home.  The comparison left me very happy with the state of my audio system.

I have not heard any of the speakers on your excellent list, so I can't compare. 

If you are really serious about your quest, you should try to find a way to spend some quality listening time with each of your top choices. 

Good luck, and all the best,
Peter

[PMAT]

D.U.
I've only heard 3 but I'm not sure which part of the assertion you mean, but it must be about the value. At $2995 I still think the RM-40's are a ton of speaker for the $$. I have, though, seen pictures of all of them and my assertion about beauty still stands regarding the 30's. Visually I find them peerless at that price point, but that's just me and my taste. Most of the systems I've seen, on the web and in some very beautiful homes, look just plain ugly. I mean the amps on the floor thing (done poorly), the ugly equipment cabinet thing, etc. For me a great set up is great sound, great looks, great art, tasteful furniture, even the right color for the listening room. It is all sensory and works together. Sound is important, but I just wouldn't put a great sounding ugly speaker in my home.
[/quote]

[jose]

Don't forget that another thing that classical music requires is lots of amplifier watts. Please do yourself a favor and take a look at the Musical Fidelity "sliding rule"; it computes the number of watts needed for accurate reproduction of transients. (A 110 dB peak - say, in Mahler's 2nd or 3rd - may easily take more than 800 watts.

Not so fast with the sliding rule.
Speakers have measured decibel output over the frequency spectrum.  Sure it's simple multiplication to take the 1 watt reading over a band of frequencies in an orchestral peak and calculate some peak power needed.  But so what.  You are never going to listen at a level of discomfort, even for a peak, and 110 db. is way too loud for comfort, even in an orchestral peak.
I've listened to Mahler's 3rd symphony many times at home with my 60 watt amplifier as loud as I wished with no effort and no distortion from the amplifier.  And in concert, I don't think it ever got anywhere near 110db at the climaxes.  But, I don't have an spl meter, so maybe I'm incorrect a bit, hard to know.

Of course, enjoyment of music is a very subjective experience, and a listening room is not a concert hall. But the 110 dB upper bound for orchestral peaks (measured from a regular listening seat) is pretty well established. It is not an opinion or a guess. Furthermore, this estimate is for small to medium size orchestras, not for large ones. According to the MF web site, for large orchestras, Tony Faulkner regularly measures peaks of 113-116 dB.

Please note that that we are talking about dynamic attacks, not continuous levels. Listening to music anywhere near that level would induce hearing loss. (As a point of reference: 110 dB is the sound pressure produced by a chain saw.)

Things are well explained in the MF web site:

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/supercharger/technical.html
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/supercharger/dynamicrange.html

[ooheadsoo]

116db at the listening seat, can you imagine what it's like as a conductor, or a player?  I've never been able to get close to the experience I get from sitting in the orchestra.  Ever sit 4 feet in front of 6 or 8 double basses?  Better to have more clean power on hand than the other way around.  The sptech/nuforce I've heard do a great job.  I haven't heard many of the other fine speakers mentioned in this thread, though.

[BrianM]

116db at the listening seat, can you imagine what it's like as a conductor, or a player?  I've never been able to get close to the experience I get from sitting in the orchestra.  Ever sit 4 feet in front of 6 or 8 double basses?  Better to have more clean power on hand than the other way around.  The sptech/nuforce I've heard do a great job.  I haven't heard many of the other fine speakers mentioned in this thread, though.

Probably impossible to have "too much" power in your amp (worst case it just idles), but certainly possible to lose your hearing.  I remember the first time I saw the Chicago Symphony live and noticed the plexiglass wall between the back-row brass (trumpets, trombones) and the players immediately in front of them...Given that I've left more than one concert there with my ears ringing, and have been on stage with them myself, I can attest to what it's like "near field" (i.e. real friggin loud).  And that's from the normal, unaugmented complement of 3 trumpets, 3 trombones.  Lots of woodwind & string players who are subjected to the business ends of the brass instruments at close range wear earplugs.

[TomS]

Audioexcels just put a pair of Ronin RMD's up for sale with the plate amp option (on the trading post).  I had a chance to spend a week with them last year and would think they'd be a great option for any orchestral music you could throw at them.  Easily fit into that list you've developed and worth a listen.  With the plate amps, they'd be fairly easy to drive the top end too.  Good luck!

Tom

[Sonny]

I would say that large and small-scale orchestral music accounts for at least 80% of my listening.  I have a large room (L-shaped, 38 x 17 feet on the long dimension and 23 x 16 on the short dimension) and I like to listen at levels from low (for reading and conversation) to "pretty close to real" concert hall levels.  For the last year I have been listening to Linkwitz Orions ( http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html ) and I can recommend them whole-heartedly for all music, but they seem to be made for large scale classical works.  The Orions are capable of playing softly, they can play loud with no apparent distortion (that's what I hear!), and on good recordings image extremely well.  IMO, they make music and they come very close to the sound of the live unamplified event.  Good music + a good recording + the Orions will stir your soul and--IMO--bring you very, very close to the performance and the artist's intent.

I live in Minneapolis and one night I listened to Osmo Vanska lead the Minnesota Orchestra in Beethoven's 1st Symphony at Orchestra Hall.  A couple of hours later I had the BIS SACD recording of Beethoven's 3rd (Vanska, Minnesota Orchestra, recorded in Orchestra Hall) playing at home.  The comparison left me very happy with the state of my audio system.

I have not heard any of the speakers on your excellent list, so I can't compare. 

If you are really serious about your quest, you should try to find a way to spend some quality listening time with each of your top choices. 

Good luck, and all the best,
Peter

Peter, I agree with most of what you said about the Orions.  A good friend built a pair and they are amazing, big soundstage, depth, and dynamics...perfect for orchestral music...only thing i see sometimes is that they bass (though 12 inches) do seem to be over loaded on low and loud passages, unless you have a subwoofer hooked up using the DSP.  Other than that they are great speakers! 
Tuan

[Daygloworange]

I remember the first time I saw the Chicago Symphony live and noticed the plexiglass wall between the back-row brass (trumpets, trombones) and the players immediately in front of them...Given that I've left more than one concert there with my ears ringing, and have been on stage with them myself, I can attest to what it's like "near field" (i.e. real friggin loud). 

The first classical concert I attended was around the age of 15 or 16. It was a violin concerto. I couldn't believe how loud and dynamic it was. I had a difficult time with it. I wasn't used to the wide dynamic range. I find that conductors often exaggerate the loud passages from the soft too much, much like movies do nowadays. It grates on me. To me, it's often like melodrama.

Cheers

[Double Ugly]

Audioexcels just put a pair of Ronin RMD's up for sale with the plate amp option (on the trading post).  I had a chance to spend a week with them last year and would think they'd be a great option for any orchestral music you could throw at them.  Easily fit into that list you've developed and worth a listen.

I've heard good things about the Ronins, but I've not had an opportunity to hear them.

May be worth considering, Images... especially if you can audition them first.

I find that conductors often exaggerate the loud passages from the soft too much, much like movies do nowadays. It grates on me. To me, it's often like melodrama.

Though it doesn't often grate on me (I usually like it; dynamics freak, I guess ), I agree it sometimes seems exaggerated.

I thought it was just me. 

[jose]

I am in complete agreement with Peter regarding the Linkwitz Orions. They might be exactly what Images is looking for; but at $8,200 for a finished pair, they are outside the range given.

[TomS]

I heard many of the things in the Ronins that I also liked in my brief encounter with the Orions, except they also have the sealed bass for those who might prefer it (and fewer amps).  It took some patience to get them positioned just right, but once there, they were full and very realistic sounding in the bass.  I worked them pretty hard too, but never found them straining in my modest room (13x24x8).

I've heard the Salk HT3's many times, and if you can swing it $$ wise, they'd be a great choice too.  Truly full range and you certainly don't find people looking to move away from them.  Of course, Jim's service is also top notch.  I think Phil has also been working with Jim to source cabinets, so that's always a possibility if you wanted to go BESL again.

Unfortunately, like quite a few specialty makers on the forum, not too many out there to get an audition.  If you talk to Paul Hilgeman, I think he has someone with a pair in the northwest, maybe Seattle (?).   As always, it depends on your taste and if you can spend some time with them first, all the better.  RMAF is the best venue to take in quite a few in one place if you're in no hurry, though it's no substitute for hearing them in your own room.

Tom

[opaqueice]

The Linkwitz Orions are superb on any kind of well-recorded acoustic music, particularly orchestral, and I don't think there's any lack of bass.  My pair are driven by amps that clip before the speakers distort significantly, and it's clearly and obviously audible when it happens.  But that's just about always on bass-heavy rock or electronica played at very high levels - I've almost never had it happen with acoustic music. 

My room is relatively small (16x19x8), so possibly in a larger room it would be more of a problem.

[Rocket]

Hi,

You couldn't go wrong with these speakers for the price that they are selling for.  I have a pair of Nuforce s9's and they are a pretty good sounding speaker.  If you didn't like them you could always sell them and recoup your money and it is below your price range.

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1202437622

Also another speaker to consider is by a Western Australian loudspeaker designer.  Here is a review by 6 moons.  I would also mention that I have directly compared my nuforce s9's to the Dianne's and whilst the nuforce speakers are very good the Dianne's are another level higher in another league.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/waraudio/dianne.html

Regards


Rod

[stvnharr]

Of course, enjoyment of music is a very subjective experience, and a listening room is not a concert hall. But the 110 dB upper bound for orchestral peaks (measured from a regular listening seat) is pretty well established. It is not an opinion or a guess. Furthermore, this estimate is for small to medium size orchestras, not for large ones. According to the MF web site, for large orchestras, Tony Faulkner regularly measures peaks of 113-116 dB.

Please note that that we are talking about dynamic attacks, not continuous levels. Listening to music anywhere near that level would induce hearing loss. (As a point of reference: 110 dB is the sound pressure produced by a chain saw.)

Things are well explained in the MF web site:

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/supercharger/technical.html
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/supercharger/dynamicrange.html

Okay, there have been measured orchestral peaks in excess of 110db.  MF and a few other amp manufacturers can supply megawatt amps to those who think that's the way to go, sliding rule or no sliding rule.
I regularly operated a chain saw for 25 years or so. I always wore ear protection. Everyone has their loudness limits, even for peaks.
But this is not an amp thread.

As to speakers, well, Orions are a very good option.  They are quite affordable if you can go diy for some or all of their construction.

[Hogg]

I would suggest as have others a large and efficient speaker like the K-Horns or the 15" Tannoys.  Both may be out of your price range. 


                                                                                                               Jim

[Images]

Ok Gentlemen, (& any ladies possibly present as well).  This has been a weekend largely committed to football, thus causing a delay in my response to some of the recent and wonderful posts.  Most notable were the mention of both the Orions and the Nomads.  When I first read about the Orions I thought, “This is it; this is The Solution.”  Then, after reading a bit more, I realized that to use these would require an external active XO / equalizer.  I thought that was quite acceptable, I just would have to find room for another box.  Then I realized that tri-amplification was mandatory, most likely with the MC amp recommended by the designer, or I would have to consider the purchase of 4 more Channel Islands D100s.  This seems like a hoop through which I am reluctant to jump.  For one thing, the more complex the network, the more opportunity there is for me to mess it up.  And regarding amps, I don’t want to spend the money for 4 more CIA mono blocs, and I am very resistant to going with some MC box with which I am unfamiliar.  For that matter, in the back of my head I always like having the “parachute” of returning to tubes.  Still, the pedigree of the Orions design is impeccable.  It could be that I am just lazy and cheap and trying to find a way to justify why I should not invest in these.
 
Here is a quote I have to share.  “…audiophiles stubbornly resist the inherently superior powered-speaker approach, although in this case the power amplifier is not built in and thus a number of alternative amp choices are possible. In any case, other things being equal, an electronic crossover is preferable to a passive crossover, and direct coupling of the drivers to the amplifier is preferable to coupling through a network. The active (powered) format is simply better, in every way—but who will believe me? Only those who already know.”  All righty then, regarding the design of the Orions, I have just quoted Peter Aczel.   I never saw this day coming.  I just looked out the window to make sure there were no winged hogs fluttering about!
   
Both the Nomad Ronins and the Orions satisfy my dipole appetite ala Dahlquist, Acarian Systems and Alon.  In other words, the designs of Carl Marchisotto seem to have greatly influenced my audio sensibilities.  Dipoles just make sense to me.  If I talk myself out of the Orions, then I believe the Ronins would be the way for me to go.  I will have to check with Paul Hilgeman to see if I would be better served by the powered model with the plate amp, and also whether my tastes would be better served by the model with the metal cones or the paper cones.  If I get a Ronin with a plate amp, well I am at $5500 rather than $4500 and there goes the budget.  Of course, if I stick with the Orions, my budget is shot no matter what.  With the Orions I would go the DIY route and build them incrementally.

This still leaves the offerings from Salk Audio, specifically the Veracity HT3. In addition to this there is the TL configured QWs that were mentioned in an earlier post, and the Salk site is now promoting a V3 model, which possibly could be thought of as a budget HT3.  I am sure I could be happy with the HT3s, even though they are not an open baffle (dipole) design.
 
That leaves us with SP Tech.  The old roadie in me really salivates at the thought of these monitors.  It’s just that I want the $5500 Timepiece 3.0s rather than the $3K Timepiece Minis.  But what the hey, everything that looks “right” for me seems to be a bit above $5K – though the Orions could be quite a bit above that if I don’t go DIY.  Now, the only thing left for me to ask about is the EMERAL PHYSICS CS2s.  What are these??  They obviously are an open Baffle design.  Zybar *George,* could you / would you comment on these? Hmmmm???
 
BTW, PSP, I want to thank you for bringing the “Orion system” to my attention in the first place.   I have the Bis SACD releases of the Beethoven 4 & 5, plus the 9th with the Minnesota Orchestra.  I confess, I have trouble calling this organization the Minnesota Orchestra.   The first orchestral piece I ever heard was Prokofiev’s “Peter and the Wolf.”  This was in 1958 at Northrop Auditorium with the Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra under the direction of Stanislaw Skrowaczewski (if I remember correctly.)   I was on a fourth-grade field trip provided me by the Wayzata Public School District.   This is one of the few things I remember from grade school.

Just to summarize then:
1.   Orions
2.   Nomads
3.   Salk Veracity HT3s / V3s
4.   Salk QWs
5.   SP Tech Timepiece Minis
6.   Emerald Physics??

And once more, and additional comments are welcome and invited. 

[BrianM]

I'm trying to think what I personally would do if such were my list of choices (and assuming my listening room would accommodate any one of them).  I'm a "keep it simple stupid" kind of guy so I'd probably gravitate toward speakers that didn't require multiple amps.  But sound-wise, I think this is a near-impossible call unless you could audition each one carefully in your room.  Plus the realization that you'd almost certainly be happy enough with any of them (unless you're the obsessive-compulsive type).

Your open-mindedness, including the willingness to DIY or consider using four amplifiers & external XO, and your apparently flexible budget, make this a pretty tough choice.  Maybe first, decide how much you're an open-baffle guy.  Then decide how many amps you want to deal with.

The Emerald Physics sound like a steal ($3000) until you consider their amping requirements, but a lot of this probably comes out in the wash. 

All that being said, if it were me, and I'd said my budget really was $4000 or under, I'd almost certainly get either the QWs or the Timepiece Minis.  Knowing what I know about a good 2-way design with good bass reach (and with the memory of being electrified and pinned to my chair last night by a superbly recorded Beethoven overture) I'd happily save the extra $thousands for more music. 

Good luck...

[zybar]

Images,

I will try and post something tonight on the Emerald Physics CS2's.

IMHO, they certainly do belong on your list.

George

[Big Red Machine]

I have both V3s and HT3s.  Other than the HT3s going lower (not by much) the V3s are exceptional for the money.  If budget were a priority then I would highly recommend the V3.  I wowed a crowd here last year by playing just 2 channel music through them in my HT and everyone thought the sub was on.  They are easy to drive as well with conventional amplification.

When you consider the SongTower and the V3, personal preference would dictate which you would prefer: the ribbon tweeter detail of the V3 or the Hiquphon OW2 dome unit and the type of bass each can produce.  My personal preference is to have the most revealing speaker I can afford and then throttle that with the sources and cabling to suit (if you feel the need).

The V series does not get a lot of love (yet), but I absolutely love them and think they are the steal of the century.  There really isn't anything they don't do.  We watched Elizabeth on HD DVD Saturday night and the sound just enveloped us.  Very crystal clear and never grating. 

My sales pitch.

[BrianM]

I wowed a crowd here last year by playing just 2 channel music through them in my HT and everyone thought the sub was on.

Was this at all an audio-savvy crowd??  Man, I have to wonder how many people, who think they have to have a sub, have much of an idea just how low those missing fundamentals actually are.  They are considerably lower than the VAST majority of music calls for.  With a speaker like the V3, whose F3 sits at 32Hz, you're talking about an in-room response extending into the 20s.  20 Hz (i.e. just outside this range) is a full octave BELOW the lowest string on a double bass.  This speaker is not only going to give you 99.9% of the musical range, its F10 is going to provide a feeling of ample foundation (space, subflooring, whatever) underneath & around the music.  Even the very lowest pipe organ notes (which only a relatively few # of organs in the world possess) aren't going to go entirely missing; the odd sub-20Hz pipe doesn't even register as much more than a rumble to your ears when you're actually sitting in the cathedral hearing it live.  And bass in the low 30s starts to sound like rumble anyway.  The whole point of a speaker like the V3 (or HT3) is to avoid needing a sub.  Yet many people still insist a sub underneath a full range speaker is preferable.  For HT explosions and star destroyers, maybe so.  For 2-channel music I've never really understood it.  Sorry for the rant.

the ribbon tweeter detail of the V3 or the Hiquphon OW2 dome unit

(and the Hiquphon does NOT suffer from lack of detail...)

The V series does not get a lot of love (yet), but I absolutely love them and think they are the steal of the century.  There really isn't anything they don't do.  We watched Elizabeth on HD DVD Saturday night and the sound just enveloped us.  Very crystal clear and never grating. 

I forgot (momentarily) about them, too!