[jimdgoulding]

I don't know quite where to put this inquiry.  How about here?  I'm hoping that you can give me some recommendations about what affordable products are available to make my in room music sound as pure with as low of a noise floor as Satfrat's.  If you would care to reference his remarks visit The Norah Jones line on The Music Circle in a reply to me (Sat- Of course, please give me your best recommendation, too).  Thanks in advance.  Oh, I use active speakers.  You know, self amplified.  Does that complicate the situation? 

[arthurs]

First step....do you have dedicated lines run to your room?

[jimdgoulding]

Thanks, Art.  No, I don't.

Ps-  I like your signature.

[arthurs]

Before investing in anything else, I'd look into this.  Should be reasonable investment (unless you need 5 or 6 lines) and will give you a pretty big bang for your buck in terms of cleaning up your power...

Thanks, I'm thinking of changing my sig to "Never attribute to malice that which is as easily explained by stupidity"  another quote I like....

[Scott F.]

I agree with the dedicated line for your system. You will likely still have grunge on your mains though. I've played with passive and active devices and by a wide margin, the active devices seem to provide the best improvement for me in my system. Recently I bought one of the BPT 2.1 Signature's from Chris Hoff. The improvement was significant. If you heard it in (and out of) my system, you would realize that 'significant' is an understatement.

[TONEPUB]

I'm a huge fan of Running Springs.  I have never used them with active speakers
(my Meridian 7200's are on order though..)  But they have been great with everything
else I've used em with, including big power amps in the 200-400 wpc range.

I own five of them, so I guess Im sold.

Most RSA dealers do offer in home trials, so I would give their stuff my highest
recommendation!

www.runningspringsaudio.com

[denjo]

Jeff

I think you gave Running Spring's tourist info!

The Running Springs Audio website is www.runningspringsaudio.com

Best Regards
Dennis

[TONEPUB]

woops!  sorry about that!!

thanks!

[arthurs]

Second the Running Springs.  I've owned Audio Magic Stealth XXX (good product), BPT 3.5 Signature (better product), and a Running Springs Haley is currently what I have.  I've found it to be the best of the 3 in terms of quietness and "adding nothing" to the sound of my system.  They are also non-current limiting so you can run amps through them without any issue...

[jimdgoulding]

Gracious, compadres.  Do ya'll use this on every component in the chain?  Would I be compromising or missing something if I just used them on my active speakers?

[arthurs]

Depending on your power and how much hash it has on it, your source components will benefit quite a bit, then your pre and amps by order of magnitude has been my experience...I run everything through a conditioner and dedicated lines....

[TheChairGuy]

I've tried PS Audio's PowerPlant 300 (regenerator) and Ultimate Outlet , Brickwall's high current model, and BPT-2.0 Signature conditioners.  Tho each has been a help in many regards - they ALL ultimately left me with a strident signature that was less like the music than before (or as I hear it).

I realize that electrical conditions are abysmal, and that these conditioners helped some, so I am still looking for an answer.

Right now, I used an Enacom powerline 'conditioner' and a PS Audio Noise Harvestor into a Radio Shack strip outlet (no surge as we don't have electical strikes here in San Fran) and I've been rewarded with the most natural sound I've ever had.  The Noise Harvestor does work for me - undoubtedly so.  I understand it is a controversial device for many...but for me (for $85) it really, really works well to tame the electrical nasties 

Spend less, not more initially when exploring conditioning.....the most expensive are not always the most beneficial.

John

[samplesj]

In the end you HAVE to listen for yourself.

I'll also back up the audition recommendations for both Running Springs Audio and BPT gear.

For a long time I had a BPT 3.5 sig and a RSA Duke.  I did several head to head comparisons.  All of the comparisons at first were just like everyone else is saying.  The RSA gear was just so much faster/livelier.  So the RSA stayed in my 2 channel system and the BPT got put back in the HT.  At the time I was running a Benchmark DAC1, S&B TX102 transformer pre, and UCD400 amps.  However after I switched my 2 channel gear to use HagTech kits (Clarinet, Chime, and Cornet2) and a Butler hybrid amp I heard something completely different.  The RSA gear was just too bright.  I don't understand how adding so many more tubes (much much warmer sounding than previous) made the power conditioner sound bright, but it did.  One potential explaination is that I did include corcom filters in each piece of the hagtech gear and some people think they hurt the sound.  The BPT sounded very nice, but overall given that I'd just upgraded several pieces and needed to sell something, I sold it. 

Even today if I had the extra cash to buy another BPT I don't think I would (it did have a positive impact vs straight out of the wall or my current tripplite isobar, but its a lot of $ for that little impact).  When I first got it, I heard a drastic improvement though.  So either our local power got better or the corcoms are helping a lot (or maybe they are killing the sound )

So YMMV and it all depends on your system with your house wiring and your local power company.

[spud]

There are a few power cond. that are affective in cleaning the AC. Very affective as a matter of fact. IMO though they all seem to have a house sound.
      I would think that if your components have a filtering system in their power supply this is redundant and possibly harmful in the long run. When you delve into the equip with a well designed power supply say Macintosh, CJ, Audio Research the need for such devices becomes moot.
      First IMO the basic electric. service is what requires attention. The panel, breakers and yes wire are critical to clean power. Especially the grounding scheme. A copper that reaches the water table below is critical.
      Just run a dedicated line in conduit for each component. Use Industrial duplex outlets and non ferrous wall plates. A dedicated sub panel from your main panel would be recommended. Romex is great for power wiring, especially the Cryo treated stuff.
      To date not one PC or BPC have improved the sound. I admit I have yet to try the RSA line so I cannot pass judgment. If these devices improve the quality of power without going through the above I'm in. One last thing. The only device that benefited from conditioning was the CDP. Go figure.

spud   

[jimdgoulding]

Now that's what I'm talking about.  I don't remember who told me about Audio Circle but I'm thankful they did.  Based on your replies, so far, I'm all the more intrigued.  I use an ARC line stage and Spud says it might have good filtering.  I'd be interested on more info about this.  He was the lone dissenting listener and I'd be interested in any others and why, frankly, before I plunk down the green.  I'm all ears.  Many thanks.

[TONEPUB]

There are a few power cond. that are affective in cleaning the AC. Very affective as a matter of fact. IMO though they all seem to have a house sound.
      I would think that if your components have a filtering system in their power supply this is redundant and possibly harmful in the long run. When you delve into the equip with a well designed power supply say Macintosh, CJ, Audio Research the need for such devices becomes moot.
      First IMO the basic electric. service is what requires attention. The panel, breakers and yes wire are critical to clean power. Especially the grounding scheme. A copper that reaches the water table below is critical.
      Just run a dedicated line in conduit for each component. Use Industrial duplex outlets and non ferrous wall plates. A dedicated sub panel from your main panel would be recommended. Romex is great for power wiring, especially the Cryo treated stuff.
      To date not one PC or BPC have improved the sound. I admit I have yet to try the RSA line so I cannot pass judgment. If these devices improve the quality of power without going through the above I'm in. One last thing. The only device that benefited from conditioning was the CDP. Go figure.

spud   

Sorry pal, I've got way over 100k worth of gear plugged into my RSA stuff and it all sounds better.

A dedicated line doesn't get rid of all the distortion components in the ac power.

It's not supposed to improve the sound, I'ts supposed to take care of the crud in the AC line.
That will usually translate into a lower noise floor and less grain in your systems presentation.

nothing more.

And I've already done the seperate box, romex, good outlets, etc.

The guys that make the best gear on earth all have RSA stuff in their personal systems and they
all had to pay for it.  Bob Stuart at Meridian, Lew Johnson and Bill Conrad at CJ, Victor Khomenko
and Geoff Poore at BAT, Jim White at Aesthetix, the list goes on and on.

There is no way a piece of gear could make an RSA or anyone elses power conditioner sound bright.

Physics doesn't work that way....

[samplesj]

There is no way a piece of gear could make an RSA or anyone elses power conditioner sound bright.

Physics doesn't work that way....

WOW referring to physics in a power conditioner thread???????????

This is actually probably directed toward me instead of the person you quoted since I did say that while I liked the RSA much better with the SS/Digital gear I liked the BPT better with tube gear (with in built power conditioning) because the RSA was bright. 

Sorry if that offends you but it IS WHAT I HEARD in two seperate listening sessions.  I don't give $#%# how much your system costs.  Lists of names of people using the gear doesn't mean squat either.  It all depends on what the OP is looking for and what he perfers for sound because it is his system.  If the RSA gear were perfect then it would never be up for sale.

I suspect that a true dual conversion online UPS would sound much better than either RSA or BPT gear if you want to get all scientific with your physics quote.  You'd have to make sure it had a good inverter and it would likely have to be housed in an adjoining room because of noise and heat.  I'm planning on expermenting with that very thing sometime next year.

[Occam]

I'm reasonably sure I'll regret entering this thread of 'blanket assertions'

.......There is no way a piece of gear could make an RSA or anyone else's power conditioner sound bright.

Physics doesn't work that way....

Ummmm....., sure it does. Any second order (or higher) filter has a 'Q' associated with its pole frequency, and while the specific reactances of that filter determine its pole frequency, the 'Q' also adds the specific load it is feeding. Under some common conditions a filter can actually exacerbate noise, which could certainly be perceived as bright. I'm certainly not saying that the RSA products do this. If one considers that one may be adding conditioning to a product that already has power conditioning built in (this is far rarer that one would expect) the opportunity for negative interactions multiply. What works wonderfully with one component may be horrendous when feeding another.

While I'd agree that ideally power conditioning should be built into each component, this is quite rare. Even the CJ, AR, etc... components are sadly lacking. If one examines the available schematics via google 'xxxVendorxxx schematic' one will see this. While these products have regulated supplies, their implementations aren't particularly good at attenuating hf mains noise. The typical 3 pin regulators used for heater supplies really suck at this.

Then again, a carefully voiced system, with conditioning suddenly applied, can be quite disconcerting.

FWIW

[satfrat]

As I stated earlier, i got my BPT BP-2.5 before i was really into audio, it was strictly for a better TV picture. I haven't ever compared it to any other balanced power conditioner. But I have compared it to what's in my system now. I hold absolutely no stock in a dedicated circuit, at least in this POS house as all it accomplished was to stop the TV picture from flickering everytime the refrigerater kicks on. But as far as improving my sound,,,, nothing by itself. The BPT was first but evrytime I add something, everything comes out so i can test what each is doing on it's own merit. The Sympathy Pro Quantum conditioner was OK on it's own for clearing up the sound but it didn't clean anything. The Bybee's claim to fame was from a soundfield depth perception. It's cleaning foundation seems to add depth that make my Lorelei's sound like bottomless wells. For me, the Z-Sleeves are simply remarkable but to really be totally affective, everything needs one. Not that improvements can't be heard with only 1 but as I continued to add one to each power cord, analog/digital interconnect, video, and speaker cable,,,, the improvements could seen & heard with each addition. That's why I say each wire needs one.
After each addition on it own, I would throw the BPT back in and BAMM, the noise would disappear and only glorious music remained. I even tried all the Bybee's, Z-Sleeves, Sympathy Pro, and PS Noise Harvesters togther w/o the BPT and it still wasn't as good as with the BPT. But then again the BPT isn't as good on it's own as it is with every little addition that accompany's it. Does the BPT add anything to the music? don't know as I haven't comapred it to any other conditioner.But even by itself, the BPT on  it's own cause me to spend thousands of dollars on audio because I was once again enjoying music to the max! Personally, I don't feel any power conditioner on it's own can illiminate  all interference. I think everything electrical adds to interference to the audio signal, even every component in your system. That's why I have a Bybee/Z-Sleeve combo on each piece of wire in my system. That's why each component, even my computer, is plugged into the BPT. It's the 1 component that isn't plugged in that'll be introducing the most inteferference to your system. So how can every component not be given the cleanest power available?
I'll just add that the only conditioner that hasn't shown me anything for an audio improvement point of view was the PS Noise Harvesters. But they did show me what they think of my dediacted circuit cuz I have 5 of them spread apart by an empty outlet in a 36" power strip that's placed at the end of my dedicated circuit and all 5 are blinking like crazy. The power strip is plugged into a Fueutech gold duplex along with the BPT so I clean alittle something up before the BPT even sees the power. I have an Ultimate Z-Sleeve and Wayne Of Bolder Cable's only 20 amp dual Bybees IEC adapter that's also placed before the BPT. One could say it's all overkill but I'd say BS! I can hear when any piece is missing, like say I switch the Quantum Pro off or take some Z-Sleeves off. I will also add that I live in a 100+ year old dump that was rewired 70 years ago and I have a main transformer maybe 40 feet from my house with powerlines running right outside the walls so maybe this contributes to all the positive results that I hear from my overkilling conditioning. Don't know, don't care,,,, it's all about the end of the day for me and enjoying the fruits of my labor.  

[Bigfish]

Guys:

Anyone have experience with the Equi=Tech Q line of power conditioners?

Ken