[Phil]

Ken,

I use a Q-650 for my cdp.  Great unit that was made specifically for sources and that is how I use it.  Even though I have two dedicated lines (which are an absolutely great investment and IMO the place to start power conditioning), the equi=tech further refined the HF and mids without messing with dynamics.   

Recently I added power enhancers, Alan Maher's little filters.  These are truly great.  They even improved the equi=tech.  After using them for about two months I realize that my system is very consistent now.  Previously, the sound varied quite a bit day to day.

It seems to me that digital needs a LOT of attention to the AC and brings the greatest benefits.  Some of the harshness that folks hear in digital playback may be the AC noise that is getting into the system.  I know that the noise was causing me fatigue and that it is now gone (or at least I cannot hear it).

Phil

[PaulFolbrecht]

Anybody compare Running Springs to Exact Power?

Two totally different methodologies of cleaning power, but similar reputations.

[woodsyi]

I did Haley vs EP 15A a while back.  Both constricted power to my amps but offered some improvements to source equipments.  The AC-DIY Felicia actually worked the best on my source equipments.  Power conditioning is such a location dependent thing, I can't possibly recommend any particular piece for your use. Try any many as you can in your system.  I would definitely do the dedicated circuit before conditioning.  FWIW, I use APS Purepower 1050 which works well with my tube monoblocks because it provides constant voltage and has sufficient amperage not to restrict power. 

[satfrat]

I did Haley vs EP 15A a while back.  Both constricted power to my amps but offered some improvements to source equipments.  The AC-DIY Felicia actually worked the best on my source equipments.  Power conditioning is such a location dependent thing, I can't possibly recommend any particular piece for your use. Try any many as you can in your system.  I would definitely do the dedicated circuit before conditioning.  FWIT, I use APS Purepower 1050 which works well with my tube monoblocks because it provides constant voltage and has sufficient amperage not to restrict power. 

When you say constricted power to your amps, what exactly is happening? Not trying to be smart or anything but i'm just curious as to what's going on with the sound? I don't think I've experienced anything like that in my system but then I might not know what I'm suppose to be looking for,,, like in muddled bass or rolled off highs so I'm hoping you can better explain just what's happening or what you are hearing when you say constricted?
Thanks!

Robin

[spud]

I did Haley vs EP 15A a while back.  Both constricted power to my amps but offered some improvements to source equipments.  The AC-DIY Felicia actually worked the best on my source equipments.  Power conditioning is such a location dependent thing, I can't possibly recommend any particular piece for your use. Try any many as you can in your system.  I would definitely do the dedicated circuit before conditioning.  FWIT, I use APS Purepower 1050 which works well with my tube monoblocks because it provides constant voltage and has sufficient amperage not to restrict power. 

When you say constricted power to your amps, what exactly is happening? Not trying to be smart or anything but i'm just curious as to what's going on with the sound? I don't think I've experienced anything like that in my system but then I might not know what I'm suppose to be looking for,,, like in muddled bass or rolled off highs so I'm hoping you can better explain just what's happening or what you are hearing when you say constricted?
Thanks!

Robin

 

 Basically a loss of dynamics. A bit soft you might say.

spud

[woodsyi]

I did Haley vs EP 15A a while back.  Both constricted power to my amps but offered some improvements to source equipments.  The AC-DIY Felicia actually worked the best on my source equipments.  Power conditioning is such a location dependent thing, I can't possibly recommend any particular piece for your use. Try any many as you can in your system.  I would definitely do the dedicated circuit before conditioning.  FWIT, I use APS Purepower 1050 which works well with my tube monoblocks because it provides constant voltage and has sufficient amperage not to restrict power. 

When you say constricted power to your amps, what exactly is happening? Not trying to be smart or anything but i'm just curious as to what's going on with the sound? I don't think I've experienced anything like that in my system but then I might not know what I'm suppose to be looking for,,, like in muddled bass or rolled off highs so I'm hoping you can better explain just what's happening or what you are hearing when you say constricted?
Thanks!

Robin

Robin,

I only put my tube amps on mid range and highs.  So I don't ask a whole lot of juice from the amps but I still heard a thinness in the mid/high range when I plug my Bill Baker modified ASL Hurricanes to the aforementioned conditioners.  Voices lose lushness and the highs lose that reverberant shimmer.  Music falls flatter. 

[Occam]

......
When you say constricted power to your amps, what exactly is happening? ....

It could well be an interaction between the powersupply of a component and the conditioner itself. In a solid state poweramplifier the capacitor banks are typically charging over a very small period of time. The larger the capacitance, the shorter that period (angle of conductance). This can result in very short, very high current pulses, that can saturate the inductive components in a power conditioner which might well manifest itself as a diminution of dynamics or 'body'. This is why, IMO, its far easier to effect good conditioning for source components as opposed to amplifiers.

Additonally, reactive componets within a conditioner can effect the power factor of the mains (lead or lag between the voltage and current) which can have intended or unintended interactions with the ps of components. This can even extend to components which are not even plugged into a conditioner, as across the line caps at the input of a conditioner are 'seen' by those components if they're on the same circuit. One can find a poweramp of a given power that works quite well with an arbitrary conditioner, but interacts wretchedly with a nominally equivalent amp.

And as I've mentioned previously, conditioning efforts may have been incorporated to the component itself, and might not 'play well' with other conditioners. My CAT preamp is a good example of this.

FWIW

[spud]

Speaking of power line conditioners, parallel and direct. How important is the UL approval rating. With these devices made here and abroad are we getting a safe product without the approval? How about insurance coverage without it? Occum any input?

spud 

[TheChairGuy]

Robin - for me it was a 'strident' nature to the music...as if it was being forced or squeezed out.  Once the offending power conditioner was removed (anything I've paid more than $150.00 for, btw, on up to $1200.00 or so...so cost is not a factor in it), the music settled down and was easier to listen to.

I have a couple of the $200 Z-sleeves...one on my phono leads and one on my umbilical from outboard power supply to CDP.  They work fairly well, but not quite worth $200 a pop, I feel.  I made my own versions of them for $40 in ERS clothe and copper and aluminum foil (and black electrical tape), folded around toilet paper rolls, and have those on my speaker cables running into my speakers.  Again, modestly beneficial - but vastly lesser cost makes it worthwhile this way via DIY. 

The ZSleeves supposedly work on creating a zero-null zone where RFI and EMI are trapped and absorbed by the copper, aluminum and carbon impregnated ERS clothe...they don't do a thing for very much real noise generated on the electrical line coming into your home or voltage fluctuations that 'sag' the output of your whole system.

John

When you say constricted power to your amps, what exactly is happening? Not trying to be smart or anything but i'm just curious as to what's going on with the sound? I don't think I've experienced anything like that in my system but then I might not know what I'm suppose to be looking for,,, like in muddled bass or rolled off highs so I'm hoping you can better explain just what's happening or what you are hearing when you say constricted?
Thanks!

Robin

[TheChairGuy]

Cuddly Paul/Occam - was it you that had first hand experience as to the benefit of the newest PS Audio $400 conditioner? I think you mentioned it was very, very effective and reasonably priced...

John

It could well be an interaction between the powersupply of a component and the conditioner itself. In a solid state poweramplifier the capacitor banks are typically charging over a very small period of time. The larger the capacitance, the shorter that period (angle of conductance). This can result in very short, very high current pulses, that can saturate the inductive components in a power conditioner which might well manifest itself as a diminution of dynamics or 'body'. This is why, IMO, its far easier to effect good conditioning for source components as opposed to amplifiers.

Additonally, reactive componets within a conditioner can effect the power factor of the mains (lead or lag between the voltage and current) which can have intended or unintended interactions with the ps of components. This can even extend to components which are not even plugged into a conditioner, as across the line caps at the input of a conditioner are 'seen' by those components if they're on the same circuit. One can find a poweramp of a given power that works quite well with an arbitrary conditioner, but interacts wretchedly with a nominally equivalent amp.

And as I've mentioned previously, conditioning efforts may have been incorporated to the component itself, and might not 'play well' with other conditioners. My CAT preamp is a good example of this.

FWIW

[satfrat]

Thanks for the explanations on constriction,,, that's pretty much what I was hoping to hear and am quite frankly relieved because in my system, my BPT does quite the opposite. It adds depth and dynamics to my Lorelei's. To The Chair Guy, I understand what you're saying but it's my belief that ANY product that filters/eliminates/disapates anything that would cloud an audio signal is a plus. Z-Sleeves I believe do just this regardless of what wire they're on. They but themselves aren't adding anything but what they're elliminating only adds to what you're gonna hear. But that's true with any power conditioning device. It's not suppose to add anything,, ideally that is. With everything I have tied into my 2400watt BPT, I would suspect to hear something completely different than 4 bottomless wells of sound from my 4 Lorelei's if anything were being constricted.

 I was told straight up by Chris Hoff of BPT that power conditioning can be done fairly cheap (as Occam can attest to) with real good results but after a certain point, any further improvement to the sound by totally isolating an audio signal costs money,,, lots & lots of money for minute improvements. It's not about adding, it's about subtracting everything but the audio signal and that can account for things we don't understand but people like Jack Bybee do. I try and use common sense in things I don't understand but in the end, all any of us have are our ears. If i were to let go of any of my Bybee's that highlite each and every wire, it would only be for Jack Bybee's lastest Bybee. I can't afford to so it ain't gonna happen. Z-Sleeves are a PIA but I find that they work so good in conjunction with Bybee's that I'd more than love to replace each standard Z-Sleeve with an Ultra but once again, it's a money issue.

Thanks to everyone for their opinons and clarification of their experiences, it IS appreciated.  

Robin

[Occam]

ChairGuy - The PS Audio Duet @$250 was a tremendous improvement in a friend's system who lives in a high density 15 story condo building. His power really sucked, and his equipment was modest, a Creek integrated and cdp. In that situation the improvements were that proverbial night and day, and we heard no negatives associated with its use. Conversely, Topround (Mike) bought one and in his suburban environment, and he found it to constrain dynamics in the VTL-85 tube amp. All I can suggest is that any conditioner (like any component) should be evaluated in your specific environment and ideally with a return privilege.

Spud - To my limited knowledge, which is by no means exhaustive, the only conditioners which are UL listed are those from ExactPower and Tripplite. Furman products are certified and listed by other government approved ETLs (Electrical Testing Laboratories). I'm not familiar with other country's procedures. Some others, like Monster, BlueCircle, Belkin, etc... use only components that are ETL listed for their mains power use, but those conditioners themselves are not specifically ETL listed. Certification from UL is a very expensive proposition, costing a minimum of $12k, and that is only if you pass on the first try. Other ETLs are less expensive. The fact that some manufacturers might not use ETL listed components (capacitors) in their conditioners (Audience and RSA?) does not mean they are inherently less safe; it simply means that they've, for whatever reasons, chosen not to undertake the certification process at an ETL.
I'm neither a liability/insurance lawyer, nor a licensed PE, so I can't/won't comment on potential legal issues with regards to power conditioners. Bespoke products, whether conditioners, amps or cpds are not produced in quantites to justify the expense of ETL certification.

FWIW,
Paul

[TheChairGuy]

Occam: Interesting on the PS Audio Duet....I'd have figured as a purely passive device there would be no dynamic constriction.  Guess I have to strike that one from the possibility list.  I'm not going back THERE again (shrill, muted / restricted dynamics)....yet soundstage width, depth and overall clarity was gained with all of the 4 failed conditioners I've tried. In the end, the downsides outweighed the benefits for moi

Robin / satfrat:  Forgot to mention, I have a powerline Bybee that Wayne at Bolder sells.  I have my preamp plugged into it and I keep hearing a small benefit from having it there - with no obvious downsides.  It was $200 or so - one could do without it for that price I think...not that it doesn't work okay, it's just not quite worth $200 (I realize Bybee's aren't cheap and Wayne needs to be paid for his time making it - I have zero issue with the cost he charges - only that the benefit of the Bybee in this application is small).

I liked my BPT, but the day I took it offline was the day I fully enjoyed music again in here (with just the PS Audio Harvestor, Enacom power filter, Bybee all plugged into a nice steel Radio Shack Power Strip (without surge protection) and 4 ZSleeves methodically placed   

Frankly, it became more / most noticeable how strident the music with the BPT Signature was the more vinyl I played again, and when my tastes ran stronger to classical and simply miked jazz and other acoustical arrangements.

[Scott F.]

TCG,

It's strange, my experience with the BPT is the exact opposite as yours.  The same goes for a couple of other GAS guys too.

[satfrat]

Guess that's just 1 of the many mystery's of audio concerning not only BPT but many other power conditioners. For as many folks like Chair Guy who swear that balanced power conditioner constricted or colored their system, there's just as many BPT owners like Scott and myself that'll swear just the opposite. Thanks Scott F. BTW.  There is 1 fact that I'm sure of and that's if you keep track of power conditioner sales on Audiogon like I do, you'll know that there's never really that many used BPT's on the market,,, especially when compared to all the other brands for sale. I would think that in of itself is a good indicator of a satisfied BPT customer. BUT there's also no discounting the dissatisfied customers either. So I think the only safe statement is as it is with all audio equipment, it's an individual decision that probably includes many variables, the most important being the individuality of our own ears. So there's really no right or wrong,,, right? 

Robin

[TheChairGuy]

I know - I shake my head is disbelief as well re; the BPT.  It did so many great things (for one, it grounded all noise so well on my TT that hooking up the ground wire actually added noise / hum...so the ground wire was left dangling with it in the system), but in the end, sounded more natural without it in the system.

The giant back-to-front depth and some width shrunk, as did inky blackness that comes with lower noise...but I couldn't get past the stridency/shrillness it added (even without the amp plugged in to it at one point).  In the end I chose 2 dimensionality and considerably more natural tonality to bigger soundstage and less noise.

I am in the minority of folks that hear the same kind of unnatural, tizzy, shrillness with moving coil cartridges I've auditioned over most moving magnets/irons...despite the obvious advantages of moving coils in speed, detail, transparency, etc.  In the end, they don't sound natural to me - that is, they don't emulate live music as I hear and have heard it   

I'm at this all long enough that I only do things to make myself happy - so, I do what I like in audio now even if I'm of the very small minority of folks believing otherwise 

I totally believe you guys (Robin & Scott) hear what you hear and like about the BPT...it added some remarkable attributes to the sound...but, ultimately, lost out to the more natural tonality without it in my system.  If it doesn't sound like music that I hear played live....then I give it up despite other positive attributes it might be adding.

John

[hmen]

TCG,

It's strange, my experience with the BPT is the exact opposite as yours.  The same goes for a couple of other GAS guys too.

I have to agree. The BPT is one of the best investments I've made in my system.
The thing I'm concerned with now that the BPT doesn't address is voltage regulation. The power coming into my house can vary greatly during the day and it definitely affects my system. I emailed Chris at BPT and asked him if there was anything I could put between the wall and the BPT 2.5 so that I could get a constant 120v into my system. He said it probably wasn't necessary but if I really wanted something I should try Exact Power EP15A or PSAudio Premier. I do think it could make a difference because I can hear that the output of the system is lower during the day.
Both these machines cost a lot more than the BPT and each has 12 outlets so I started looking for a voltage regulation device with only one or two outlets that would send 15 amps at 120v to the BPT. So far my search has turned up some large scale industrial devices (with large scale prices) and one smaller device that looked promising until I got to the part that said it has a loud audible hum. I saw another that looked good but it was only 5 amps.
Furman and APC both make devices that provide voltage regulation and both claim to be for audio but they also have 12 outlets. Also, the Furman say it regulates within +- 5v so that doesn't seem so great 
http://www.altapower.com/Line_Conditioners_s/806.htm
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?id=AR-1215
  I don't need all those additional outlets or boxes, I don't want to replace my BPT,  I just want a small device.
Has anyone ever used a voltage regulator between the wall and a power conditioner? Would it make a difference? Has anyone ever DIY'd a voltage regulator?  Does anyone have a recommendation?

Howard
             

[rabpaul]

I ruled out Regeneration/Balanced Power simply because it would limit power to the 4BSST.

Like the ChairGuy I too have a couple of Enacoms A/C plugged into a WireMold strip. To this strip I have a RGPC Pro with no components attached to it. Its purpose is to reduce the noise on the incoming line (like the Enacoms) and act as a reserve should my power amp every need it.
Also to this strip I have a Hydra 4 which suppies all my devices (CDP, Pre, Power, Sub). This is to prevent noise leaking into another device via the power cord. The Hydra does additional filtering of the power.

There is no single solution that works for everyone and you really have to try and find out what works best for you.

[DSK]

ChairGuy - The PS Audio Duet @$250 was a tremendous improvement in a friend's system who lives in a high density 15 story condo building. His power really sucked, and his equipment was modest, a Creek integrated and cdp. In that situation the improvements were that proverbial night and day, and we heard no negatives associated with its use. Conversely, Topround (Mike) bought one and in his suburban environment, and he found it to constrain dynamics in the VTL-85 tube amp.

Hi Paul, that's very interesting. A friend asked me to purchase (and burn in & evaluate) a Duet for him as I had dealt with the reseller before and could get him a better price. One of the immediate differences I heard in my system was improved dynamics. I sat there scratching my head as I had experienced a loss of dynamics with other conditioners and had come to expect it. My hope was that the Duet would improve certain things without degrading dynamics. For this reason I always ran my amp direct to the wall and just put the front end on a conditioner (Bolder linear PS on one PSA HC UO and Aspen GK-1 pre-amp on a separate PSA HC UO).

Upon its arrival, I placed the Duet on the power amp for the sole reason of getting some juice flowing through it to burn it in more quickly.  It was immediately apparent that dynamics had actually improved. I can't understand how a conditioner could actually improve dynamics (despite the claims of various manufacturers), but it clearly did. It was also a significant step up from my HC UO's. So much so that I bought a Duet and have my amp, pre-amp and linear PS all runing off it.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I run dedicated lines and believe my AC quality to be not too bad.

[TheChairGuy]

allright then...maybe I'll put the PS Audio Duet back on my list of new conditioners then