[oscar]

I bit the bullet and became an HD early adopter because I had a 110" screen which I had been feeding a steady diet of Dishnetwork HD broadcasts.  I was no longer satisfied with DVD so I had to do something.  I opted to "hedge my bets" and picked up a dual format player this past February/march.

In early Summer, Blu-Ray used to have a decided edge in Studio support with Disney/Fox/Sony being Blu-ray-exclusive, Universal being HD DVD-exclusive and Warners/Paramount being neutral releasing movies on both formats. This past August, Paramount decided to go HD DVD-exclusive despite the 2:1 software sales advantage for Blu-ray.  Now both formats are fighting fiercely for consumer hearts and minds this Holiday season. Paramount delivered a big blow for HD DVD with "Transformers" but Blu-ray still have some big blockbusters coming up for the Holiday season (e.g. Spiderman 3, Cars, Rataouille, Diehard , etc...). HD DVD will counter with Shrek 3, Bourne Ultimatum).  Both formats will have the Harry Potter blockbusters.

Thus far, Blu-ray still has a 2:1 software sales advantage while standalone sales are still uncertain; Excluding the PS3, HD DVD had a significant hardware sales up until summer when Sony Blu-ray standalone players were outselling Toshiba HD DVD players by a small margin.  Since then, Paramount defected and player prices have dropped.  Blu-ray does have the edge in number of CE manufacturer support.

I have both Blu-rays and HD DVD discs but I have now taken the position that Blu-ray needs to win this format war simply because of its storage advantages (50G vs 30G) and available bandwidth (48 Mbps vs 30 mbps) for video and audio bitrates. The story is less clear if this has translated to a picture quality advantage for Blu-ray but I believe it is there (others will disagree, particularly the HD DVD advocates). 

What's more apparent to me is the audio advantage for Blu-ray.  I believe this is the reason "Transformers" was released with a lossy DD+ soundtrack and not a lossless TrueHD soundtrack, a criminal act IMHO because this is supposed to be an HD special effects demo extravaganza.  Virtually every Sony/Fox/Disney release has included a lossless audio soundtrack.  In contrast, less than 15% of HD DVD movie releases have included lossless audio.  Part of it is studio indifference but I think the biggest reason is the bandwidth/storage limitations of HD DVD.  The movie tracks are now predominately use 24/48 master audio tracks and the HD formats give us the capability to actually listen to the master audio tracks.

Blu-ray has already released three (3) discs with both high-def video combined with 5.1 24/96 lossless audio tracks.  Another way to look at it is combining DVD-A music disc with a high def video. HD DVD is probably not capable of doing this without with serious video quality compromise because of the bandwidth limitations.

Both formats support the standard DVD audio codecs (DD/DTS/DTS 1.5 mbps core).  HD DVD players are mandated to support DD+ which replaces DD and typically provides "decent" lossy audio at 1.5Mbs.  There are also the lossless audio codecs.  Both formats (in theory) can support 7.1 24/192 lossless audio which can come in the form of DTS HD MA, TrueHD or simply "straight-up" uncompressed LPCM.  The issue is the hardware needs to be upgraded to support it.  I think you need HDMI 1.3-compliant hardware (both player and receiver or pre/pro) to support the advanced audio codecs.  Alternatively, you can get a player with 5.1 analog outputs with an existing receiver with 6 channel analog inputs. But the player has to have internal decoding capability to support the advanced audio codecs.

I'm using an LG with 5.1 analog outputs fed directly to a multichannel analog preamp/switcher which gives me 5.1 PCM, 5.1 DD+ or TrueHD for Bluray, 2 channel DD+ or TrueHD for HD DVD or 5.1 DD/DTS.  Or I can route DD/DTS/DTS core via coax/optical to a pre/pro for decoding. I cannot currently decode DTS HD MA lossless audio which is only now being supported by the latest hardware.  In the interim, DTS HD MA-capable discs include a DTS core 1.5Mbs playable by virtually any DTS-capable HT system.  At some point, I will have to buy a new player to support DTS HD MA but a suitable player with internal decoding does not yet exist.  A Samsung 1400 player will send DTS HD MA via HDMI bitstream to a suitable receiver (new Onkyos) which can decode the DTS HD MA stream.

Be sure to place donations in the offering plates being passed around.

Amen.

[oscar]

I went to an AV show a couple of weeks ago and was at a Blu Ray and HD-DVD demo. They were playing some concerts.

Now, I confess I'm a stereo purist. In fact I think 5.1 is a work of the devil

But the sound of drums coming from behind my head, whilst the picture was in front of me, was grossly unnatural. It seemed worse than useless: it took away the realism from the experience. When I'm at a concert I don't hear drums from behind me.

It was an attempt to show the "capability" of 5.1 in a musical setting but ended up as pure silliness.
Darren

The instruments in the rear thing is an acquired taste.  Fortunately, most of the classical SACDs ( and a few jazz/rock) simply use the rear channels for ambience.  Unfortunately, I can't say the same for some of the jazz/rock releases.  OTOH, I get a kick out of the 'aggressive' surround mixes for "Dark Side of the Moon", "Tubular Bells", "Brain Salad Surgery".

I saw a Blu-ray DTS demo with a video of Peter Gabrielle and and DTS HD MA (lossless) audio track at RMAF.  Yeah, it had an aggressive sound mix but it became a guilty pleasure.

[jqp]

I bit the bullet and became an HD early adopter because I had a 110" screen which I had been feeding a steady diet of Dishnetwork HD broadcasts.  I was no longer satisfied with DVD so I had to do something.  I opted to "hedge my bets" and picked up a dual format player this past February/march.

Thus far, Blu-ray still has a 2:1 software sales advantage while standalone sales are still uncertain;

I have both Blu-rays and HD DVD discs but I have now taken the position that Blu-ray needs to win this format war simply because of its storage advantages (50G vs 30G) and available bandwidth (48 Mbps vs 30 mbps) for video and audio bitrates. The story is less clear if this has translated to a picture quality advantage for Blu-ray but I believe it is there (others will disagree, particularly the HD DVD advocates). 

So..how many HD DVD disks have you actually bought? How many Blu-Ray have you actually bought?

The problem with the "advantages of the Blu-Ray format" argument is that we don't know if in the end there will be real advantages to the consumer. Will the studios/distributers really give us all of this potential quality on Blu-Ray or will they just try to save a buck in the end? Will the average consumer be able to afford all the gear needed to really take advantage of any potential quality difference? Would they be able to understand/appreciate the difference?

Of course I want what the Blu-Ray format offers if and when the price comes down to what I want to pay, but these companies currently want to make too much of my money. I also don't want a rootkit on my PC or Hi Def player (which is a computer)   

But also I'm just not feeling the need for an HD format right now.

[Rashiki]

So..how many HD DVD disks have you actually bought? How many Blu-Ray have you actually bought?

I've bought one Blu-Ray disc and zero HD DVD discs; however, I've set up my Netflix account to send me the Blu-Ray versions of movies and I've watched at least twenty Blu-Ray movies since I got my PS3 last December.

 -Rob

[darrenyeats]

But also I'm just not feeling the need for an HD format right now.

Or more to the point a heavily DRMed one.

I'm glad SACD/DVD-A failed: the only reason for their birth was to introduce DRM. CD is more than good enough for most people (and, although this isn't central to the point, I agree with them). The point is the industry was pursuing its own interests, and people showed what they felt about that with their wallet. I say thank goodness CD is still our format because if I want to listen to music I buy on my PMP, or make backups, or stream it through the home, I can.

At the moment we are used to shiny discs for movies but it's heading the same way in terms of flexibility we enjoy. People who are already used to streaming DVDs through the home, watching them on their PDA etc are not going to like all the DRM in Blu Ray and HD-DVD when the same technology becomes capable of hi-rez.

There is one difference between the audio and the AV story. Most people perceive the HD video formats deliver usefully better quality...we just need to drop the DRM!
Darren

[ctviggen]

There's an interesting article in Widescreen Review where one of the heads of a movie company said that they selected HD-DVD because a current player can play all features on a new disk, as can the original players.  (I tossed my copy, and I can't remember which movie company they were.)  With Bluray, they keep adding new stuff to the standard and make the addition of the new stuff optional.  This means a new disk with new features might not be playable on an older player (at least the new features will not be).  Now, most of the features sounded like junk to me (I'm not a big fan of "go to our website" features), but to the studios, they aren't junk. 

[oscar]

I bit the bullet and became an HD early adopter because I had a 110" screen which I had been feeding a steady diet of Dishnetwork HD broadcasts.  I was no longer satisfied with DVD so I had to do something.  I opted to "hedge my bets" and picked up a dual format player this past February/march.

Thus far, Blu-ray still has a 2:1 software sales advantage while standalone sales are still uncertain;

I have both Blu-rays and HD DVD discs but I have now taken the position that Blu-ray needs to win this format war simply because of its storage advantages (50G vs 30G) and available bandwidth (48 Mbps vs 30 mbps) for video and audio bitrates. The story is less clear if this has translated to a picture quality advantage for Blu-ray but I believe it is there (others will disagree, particularly the HD DVD advocates). 

So..how many HD DVD disks have you actually bought? How many Blu-Ray have you actually bought?

The problem with the "advantages of the Blu-Ray format" argument is that we don't know if in the end there will be real advantages to the consumer. Will the studios/distributers really give us all of this potential quality on Blu-Ray or will they just try to save a buck in the end? Will the average consumer be able to afford all the gear needed to really take advantage of any potential quality difference? Would they be able to understand/appreciate the difference?

Of course I want what the Blu-Ray format offers if and when the price comes down to what I want to pay, but these companies currently want to make too much of my money. I also don't want a rootkit on my PC or Hi Def player (which is a computer)   

But also I'm just not feeling the need for an HD format right now.

So far, I have 53 Blu-rays and 10 HD-DVDs.  All consistently better than their DVD counterparts in terms of picture quality on my display.  OTOH, I have a much larger screen than your average Joe.  Nevertheless, I would expect anyone with a decent 40+" HDTV display could appreciate the difference between an HD movie and an upsampled DVD movie (not that most folks have a 40+" display).

I will concede studio indifference can adversely impact the quality of the remasters minimizing the advantages over DVD.  E.g. the early MPEG2 Sony transfers and this years' crop of mediocre Universal releases do not take full advantage of the HD media formats.  However, we've also seen stellar transfers, especially since the studios have learned how to used the AVC and VC1 video encoding techniques to full advantage.  The increased bandwidth/storage capacity of Blu-ray allows the use of higher bitrate encodes which in turn makes it easier to use less TLC in the encoding process while still delivering a great picture. E.g. I've noticed more "soft", less "HD-like" scenes with HD DVD releases than with Blu-ray releases.

The other advantage is audio quality.  Lossless audio tracks are 2D4 compared to standard DVD DD/DTS if you have a decent multichannel sound system.  Even 1.5m DTS/DD+ is probably a big improvement over DVD sound.  And most movie soundtracks are derived from 24/48 sources so the lossless tracks will be at a higher resolution than CD.  I'll concede most home systems will not be able to take advantage of this right away without a probable Receiver or Preamp/processor upgrade in addition to the player (though you will be able to take advantage of 1.5m DTS with optical/coax digital audio to typical receivers).

I don't plan on routinely connecting my HD player(s) to the internet; so this doesn't worry me very much.  What does worry me is the possible need for firmware fixes because BD-J and BD+ haven't been tested properly prior to implementation with both CE manufacturers and studios.  I finally have a disk I can't play (because of audio dropouts) and I'm still waiting for firmware fix from the manufacturer.  I expect I'll be downloading the "fix" to computer, burn a .iso file to disc and insert into the player to accomplish the upgrade.  This is not an exercise I would expect your average Joe would be keen on undertaking.   Such is the life of an early adopter.  DVD early adopters had it worse; they had to replace players, not just firmware.

[oscar]

But also I'm just not feeling the need for an HD format right now.

Or more to the point a heavily DRMed one.

I'm glad SACD/DVD-A failed: the only reason for their birth was to introduce DRM. CD is more than good enough for most people (and, although this isn't central to the point, I agree with them). The point is the industry was pursuing its own interests, and people showed what they felt about that with their wallet. I say thank goodness CD is still our format because if I want to listen to music I buy on my PMP, or make backups, or stream it through the home, I can.

At the moment we are used to shiny discs for movies but it's heading the same way in terms of flexibility we enjoy. People who are already used to streaming DVDs through the home, watching them on their PDA etc are not going to like all the DRM in Blu Ray and HD-DVD when the same technology becomes capable of hi-rez.

There is one difference between the audio and the AV story. Most people perceive the HD video formats deliver usefully better quality...we just need to drop the DRM!
Darren

There is really no point in having HD movies for viewing on PDAs.  HD movies are for viewing on a large display usually in an HT room (or what passes for one).  Yeah, DRM bothers me a little but I don't typically "archive" movies  and I've yet to trash any of the DVDs or HD movies I own.  I also don't expect DRM to work; it's already been broken for AACS (used with both HD DVD and Blu-ray) and it remains to be seen how effective the Blu-ray-peculiar BD+ DRM technology is.  If it actually works, you can bet the studios will flock to use it.  It means the customers screwed on making "archival" copies but c'est la vie.  Frankly, my money is on the hackers to make the studios finally realize DRM in any form will not work.

[oscar]

There's an interesting article in Widescreen Review where one of the heads of a movie company said that they selected HD-DVD because a current player can play all features on a new disk, as can the original players.  (I tossed my copy, and I can't remember which movie company they were.)  With Bluray, they keep adding new stuff to the standard and make the addition of the new stuff optional.  This means a new disk with new features might not be playable on an older player (at least the new features will not be).  Now, most of the features sounded like junk to me (I'm not a big fan of "go to our website" features), but to the studios, they aren't junk. 

Paramount made a decision to go from Neutral to HD DVD-exclusive.  There was NYTimes article which suggested an HD DVD proponent paid Paramount as much as $150 million for 18 month HD DVD exclusivity.  If true, this was probably a good business move from Paramount's perspective despite the lost Blu-ray sales (2:1 advantage over HD DVD).

I've had my player for six (6) months and have only had issues with the latest Fox release (Fantastic Four:Silver Surfer).  I suspect this is related to BD+ not implemented in the player properly but I expect a firmware fix to correct this.  I also expect every Blu-ray or HD DVD disc ever produced will be playable with my current player; though there is the possibility of the occasional firmware fix to ensure playability.  Toshiba had similar firmware fix de jour during the early days of HD DVD.

As far as the extra features are concerned, I don't give a hoot.  The primary criteria for me is Movie picture and sound quality.

[jqp]

Looks like Walmart will be selling a $198 Toshiba HD-DVD player

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=ad3191239d1414e2622579fbfb1f454e&t=927755

[oscar]

Looks like Walmart will be selling a $198 Toshiba HD-DVD player

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=ad3191239d1414e2622579fbfb1f454e&t=927755

A couple of folks, including a Wal-mart employee, seem to think this is a close-out sale on discontinued and overstocked A2 players.   I'm still a tad worried; rumors are this player is also appearing at Circuit City.  The newer Toshiba A3s are currently priced at $300 at Best Buy while Samsung, Sharp, and Sony Blu-ray players are still priced at $500.

The potential saving grace for Blu-ray is after a Wal-mart shopper picks up an A2, what is he going to do when he finds out the movies cost $30, he can't play Spiderman, Fantastic 4, Diehard, Ratoullieie, Cars, etc... Blu-ray discs, and he can't rent HD DVD at Blockbusters ?

[Woodsea]

The movies are to damned expensive.  You can download them for much less, really how many times are you going to watch them anyway?  The movies that get played in my house the most are the kid flicks.  Do you think they really care about the difference in sound or sight, hell no.
These two are going to die, I feel like a putz now for buying the Matrix trilogy for $23 on HD-DVD.

[oscar]

The movies are to damned expensive.  You can download them for much less, really how many times are you going to watch them anyway?  The movies that get played in my house the most are the kid flicks.  Do you think they really care about the difference in sound or sight, hell no.
These two are going to die, I feel like a putz now for buying the Matrix trilogy for $23 on HD-DVD.

Heck, DVDs were just as expensive (or more) when they first came out.  And I know a whole lot of people who buy boatloads of DVDs and watch them only once or twice.  I started down that route until I got the HD media itch...... 

If you got a big screen HDTV, even the kids would notice the PQ differences.

And I thought I got a good deal for "Transformers" at $15.00... I couldn't have scored a Matrix Trilogy for half price at Circuit City; they had a price cap on their Buy one, Get one (BOGO) free disks.    Expensive couple of days for me.  Best Buy Blu-Ray BOGO plus a botched Circuit City BOGO at which at some stores included HD DVD as well as almost all Blu-rays.  Frys' occasionally has killer deals on HD media if you simply wait.

[byteme]

If folks buy an HD or BR without realizing they can't play ALL movies then they should have done their homework.  I voted yesterday and picked up an A35.  They finally got cheap enough with all the features I need (5.1 analog out) and while they don't support ALL movies, they support enough.

I would have held out for the Sammy combo player but $750 (my cost) is too high a price to pay for me.

I don't think either of these formats will "win".  There will be some other media that comes along, even if it's online, on-demand streaming that will take over.  As long as they can make the pipe big enough for it to be lossless for both audio and video.

[kyrill]

i definitely belief Blu Ray will win
nature of ppl is they dont want two "formats" for an identical function.
also retailers do not want two have two formats, ( double store space--> expensive) in Holland  already a major
dvd retailer  only advertises and pushing blu-ray disks because of last year they sold 3 BD for 1HD

its just a matter of "little" time (halfway next year?)
Si i finally took the plunge and bought the Sony BDP-S300

downloading 1080p movies is even with high adsl-2 a PITA and wil never become mainstream
and less than 1080P will not do, marketing will take care of that

[sunshinedawg]

Looks like Walmart will be selling a $198 Toshiba HD-DVD player

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=ad3191239d1414e2622579fbfb1f454e&t=927755

Looks like its the HD-A2 for $98.     

[PeteG]

Looks like Walmart will be selling a $198 Toshiba HD-DVD player

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=ad3191239d1414e2622579fbfb1f454e&t=927755

Looks like its the HD-A2 for $98.     

This is a GREAT deal, 1 day only Friday 11-2-07. Theirs a lot of good HD DVDs out.

[JoshK]

I am itching to buy one of these format players ever since I bought my newer model 58" plasma (native 1080p).   The problem is blu-ray hasn't seemed to nail down their specs yet and broadly provide HDMI 1.3 for the lossless audio output (I know you can decode on player and send to reciever as LPCM).  HD-DVD is there and is back compatible with previous versions.  However, I ultimately am most interested in renting from blockbuster, both online and in the store.   I don't buy videos except for the exceptional few. 

I also don't want to have to d/l a flick off the internet...even with broadband that is going to take a while for high def and lossless audio. 

Does anyone know if blockbuster is still providing HDDVD for rent online?  Doesn't look like they have much online anymore although I found quite a few blurays. 

[PeteG]

I haven't used BB but I get Blu-ray and HD DVD movies/concerts from Netflix weekly.

[JoshK]

Thanks for the info Pete, but I had a really bad experience with Netflix and swore I'd never go back.  I am a member of BB's online program and have been happy with the experience, although they are raising their prices now.