[Freo-1]

I'm in a bit of a quandary over this issue. 

I would like to get into the next generation for the HT rig, but cannot ascertain which way things are heading. Right now, I'm using a Denon 5910, and I'm pretty happy with it for Audio and Visual. The upscaling of standard DVD is pretty cool. and the only real difference I've seen (so far) with the new players are animated discs (which is readily apparent).

Also, what's the story with the new encoding audio formats? Seems like you either have to get a player that has on-board DACs, or, get a new receiver/preamp that encodes the format.

So I'm asking all you wizards out there, which way is this HD DVD vs. Blue Ray going? Could it suffocate like SACD/DVD audio has?

[Woodsea]

I just bought the Oppo 980 because...I don't see a real winner in this game.  I have already read about upcoming HD formats that will surpass 1080p, and now that the new 65nm 360's are being sold I will probably just get the HD-DVD thru the M$ add-on along with the console.
I don't see the worthiness right now for either format, though.   This is just my 2cents, but, if ya got the coin...go for it.

[samplesj]

Also, what's the story with the new encoding audio formats? Seems like you either have to get a player that has on-board DACs, or, get a new receiver/preamp that encodes the format.

No, you do not need to have a player with analog output OR a reciever/preamp that DEcodes the new formats.  If the player can decode the format it is allowed to pass the resulting raw PCM as a digital stream over the HDMI output.  It arrives at the receiver/preamp as digital and can be processed for bass management/room eq and then sent to its DACs or even directly sent to its DACs.  This means you do not need HDMI 1.3, but rather 1.1 will work for most content.

[samplesj]

I just bought the Oppo 980 because...I don't see a real winner in this game.  I have already read about upcoming HD formats that will surpass 1080p, and now that the new 65nm 360's are being sold I will probably just get the HD-DVD thru the M$ add-on along with the console.
I don't see the worthiness right now for either format, though.   This is just my 2cents, but, if ya got the coin...go for it.

But isn't the oppo just as much as an entry level Toshiba HD DVD player?  The Toshiba still upsamples and I found the HD-A1 was close enough to my Denon 3910 that I sold the Denon (and if you look you can find many threads where others did the same thing).

If the Toshiba upsamples on par with the oppo AND gives the capability to view HD DVD then why not buy it instead?

[Freo-1]

Also, what's the story with the new encoding audio formats? Seems like you either have to get a player that has on-board DACs, or, get a new receiver/preamp that encodes the format.

No, you do not need to have a player with analog output OR a reciever/preamp that DEcodes the new formats.  If the player can decode the format it is allowed to pass the resulting raw PCM as a digital stream over the HDMI output.  It arrives at the receiver/preamp as digital and can be processed for bass management/room eq and then sent to its DACs or even directly sent to its DACs.  This means you do not need HDMI 1.3, but rather 1.1 will work for most content.

Ok, so does that mean that if the player already decodes, and has a optical/digital coax output, then no new decoder is required? That would be good. See, my setup is 2004 vintage, and uses DVIfor video, and firewire/coax digital for audio (I run the HDMI video direct to the HDTV). I think the new players support at least one of those outputs as well as HDMI.

Right now, my best sound performance is using the IEE 1394 (Firewire) from the player to the amp.

[samplesj]

Ok, so does that mean that if the player already decodes, and has a optical/digital coax output, then no new decoder is required? That would be good. See, my setup is 2004 vintage, and uses DVIfor video, and firewire/coax digital for audio (I run the HDMI video direct to the HDTV). I think the new players support at least one of those outputs as well as HDMI.

Right now, my best sound performance is using the IEE 1394 (Firewire) from the player to the amp.

No, notice I specifically said HDMI.  Unfortunately there isn't sufficent bandwidth for uncompressed pcm for more than 2 channels of audio over digital optical/coax.  So if you use digital coax then the player is going to recompress the audio into DD or DTS and pass that to the receiver/preamp.  However in that case you've lost audio quality.

As far as firewire I don't think you'll see that on any new gear.  In a sense HDMI has superceded it.

[Freo-1]

Ok, so does that mean that if the player already decodes, and has a optical/digital coax output, then no new decoder is required? That would be good. See, my setup is 2004 vintage, and uses DVIfor video, and firewire/coax digital for audio (I run the HDMI video direct to the HDTV). I think the new players support at least one of those outputs as well as HDMI.

Right now, my best sound performance is using the IEE 1394 (Firewire) from the player to the amp.

No, notice I specifically said HDMI.  Unfortunately there isn't sufficent bandwidth for uncompressed pcm for more than 2 channels of audio over digital optical/coax.  So if you use digital coax then the player is going to recompress the audio into DD or DTS and pass that to the receiver/preamp.  However in that case you've lost audio quality.

As far as firewire I don't think you'll see that on any new gear.  In a sense HDMI has superceded it.

Okay, thanks for that. So, my only hope would be to break out the HDMI out to DVI/Firewire if such a thing exists.

[Woodsea]

I bought the Oppo because it does 1080p and has excellent audio capabilities.  HDMI pass thru for SACD and DVD-A with compatible receiver, which I don't have but plan on upgrading in 18 months anyway.  Do you see how cautious I am with my greenbacks.
I do have a 1080p monitor though, and a 720p projector for the replaced Samsung 841.
Plus it is black and it goes with the rest of my components except for my Belkin Pure/AV safety measures 

[jqp]

I'm in a bit of a quandary over this issue. 

I would like to get into the next generation for the HT rig, but cannot ascertain which way things are heading. .......

So I'm asking all you wizards out there, which way is this HD DVD vs. Blue Ray going? Could it suffocate like SACD/DVD audio has?

 Who is winning, Blu-ray or HD-DVD, and the corollary question, which type of disc player technology should I invest in? This is a frequently discussed topic on the web, including this site.

Sony has spent mega bucks pushing its Blu-ray format, and created a gaming console for that purpose. The HD-DVD camp has also spent mega bucks pushing that format.

The latest I have read indicates that it is pretty much a tossup at this point, with no clear winner likely in the next year or two.

Remembering that only a tiny fraction of the market has any type of HD player, and there are only a few hundred HD movies out there, I would say you have to pick one without trying to predict which will be a standard.

This is a brief article that shows how/why you can't predict at this point:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070925-hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-deadlock-to-continue-into-2009-at-least.html

[samplesj]

I bought the Oppo because it does 1080p and has excellent audio capabilities.  HDMI pass thru for SACD and DVD-A with compatible receiver, which I don't have but plan on upgrading in 18 months anyway. 

Upsampling 480p to 1080p isn't the same as playing a source that is native greater than 480p (DVD).  The absolute best an upsampler can do is match a native higher resolution (and that is VERY VERY unlikely).

There are HD DVD and/or bluray players that are 1080p.  The cheaper HD DVD players aren't 1080p, but I'd rather have 1080i upsampling and capability to play back NATIVE 1080i over just 1080p upsampling.

An Oppo 980 from amazon is 169.99 with free shipping
A Toshiba HD-A2 is 237.88 with free shipping.  The Tosiba is more money (<$70), but it comes with 5 free HD DVD movies.  I'm pretty sure I've seen the Toshiba for less too.

If you are using them as a digital source (not using built in dacs) then the sound quality of both should be pretty close (just a transport).  I'll admit that if you wanted DVDA and SACD then you need something like the oppo, but I really tried to get into multi-channel music and every disk I heard when I had my 3910 was just too gimmicky.  I don't want to be on stage with the band.  When certain instruments are behind me it is just weird.  Because I just couldn't get into the multi channel music I actually changed out my surrounds from direct radiators to a more diffuse style of better movie surround effect.

[darrenyeats]

I went to an AV show a couple of weeks ago and was at a Blu Ray and HD-DVD demo. They were playing some concerts.

Now, I confess I'm a stereo purist. In fact I think 5.1 is a work of the devil

But the sound of drums coming from behind my head, whilst the picture was in front of me, was grossly unnatural. It seemed worse than useless: it took away the realism from the experience. When I'm at a concert I don't hear drums from behind me.

It was an attempt to show the "capability" of 5.1 in a musical setting but ended up as pure silliness.
Darren

[Freo-1]

I bought the Oppo because it does 1080p and has excellent audio capabilities.  HDMI pass thru for SACD and DVD-A with compatible receiver, which I don't have but plan on upgrading in 18 months anyway.

Upsampling 480p to 1080p isn't the same as playing a source that is native greater than 480p (DVD).  The absolute best an upsampler can do is match a native higher resolution (and that is VERY VERY unlikely).

There are HD DVD and/or bluray players that are 1080p.  The cheaper HD DVD players aren't 1080p, but I'd rather have 1080i upsampling and capability to play back NATIVE 1080i over just 1080p upsampling.

An Oppo 980 from amazon is 169.99 with free shipping
A Toshiba HD-A2 is 237.88 with free shipping.  The Tosiba is more money (<$70), but it comes with 5 free HD DVD movies.  I'm pretty sure I've seen the Toshiba for less too.

If you are using them as a digital source (not using built in dacs) then the sound quality of both should be pretty close (just a transport).  I'll admit that if you wanted DVDA and SACD then you need something like the oppo, but I really tried to get into multi-channel music and every disk I heard when I had my 3910 was just too gimmicky.  I don't want to be on stage with the band.  When certain instruments are behind me it is just weird.  Because I just couldn't get into the multi channel music I actually changed out my surrounds from direct radiators to a more diffuse style of better movie surround effect.

Regarding the surround music comment, I would mostly agree. The exception that I've noticed is many of the Classical recordings simply  re-create the ambiance of the performance hall, which works well with my current setup.

From reviewing another thread (and the referral from this one), it seems like the best course of action may be to wait it out. I suppose that neither format could win (both fail to gain traction like SACD/DVD-A), and another format could (an single agreed to format) win out down the road.

[klh]

The way I see it, HD-DVD players have become so cheap that it's hard not to justify giving it a shot. This is coming from someone who has a PS3. I love Bluray, but I really would like to get an HD-DVD player. My problem is my is integrated amp is old... it only has two digital inputs (COAX and optical... no HDMI). I'll need to update to a new receiver before I add a third digital device, but that will cost a bundle.

[Reference Audio Mods]

I say that it is going to go towards Blu-Ray as the new general format. It is (spec-wise) a touch better in that department, and will hold a little more room.

HD-DVD is pretty much well baked in right now. The players are getting cheaper.. but remember its all about the big picture for major companys and HD-DVD is really only marketed for movies, whereas Blu-Ray format is really covering everything from movies to media storage and blank discs.

I see laptops and computers having Blu-Ray drives in them pretty soon enough, and being backwards compatible (with the 2nd laser) to work with CD's and DVD's..

[Woodsea]

I can see the point for blu-ray from the storage standpoint.  Though, I have so many cdrs now, and it could start being the same way for blu-ray eventually. That to me a huge capacity flash-drive and a terabyte or 2 or solid-state makes more sense.
Everybody has USB, but not everyone will have a blu-ray, if you are wanting to share 1's and 0' of any kind.  I have been been trying to share Divx back-ups and even then, some peoples cheap dvd players can't view them. 
HD-DVD players are getting cheaper, but the software isn't compared to SDVD.  You also have to factor in the HDTV home base, which is still very small, and even smaller to that which enjoys full 1080p. 
My parents were talked out of that resolution and got a 720p, I was steamed  , but my Dad just said in a few years, his eyes will be worse and that 50' will go in the bedroom.  That is my inheritance he is spending 

[jqp]

The thing that is so frustrating to me is that it is all driven by corporate market building instead of what is best for the consumer, or even what would make the consumers embrace the format.

HD-DVD burners were ready to be realeased early this year but they have held them back. For all the superior specs of Blu-ray, when will you see a 50GB disc? Maybe never? And have you seen the price of a 25GB disc, and the burners that are required?

[Freo-1]

The thing that is so frustrating to me is that it is all driven by corporate market building instead of what is best for the consumer, or even what would make the consumers embrace the format.

HD-DVD burners were ready to be realeased early this year but they have held them back. For all the superior specs of Blu-ray, when will you see a 50GB disc? Maybe never? And have you seen the price of a 25GB disc, and the burners that are required?

Good point, but I also think egos get in the way. It seems to me that if all those egos could have agreed on a single format, the new format would have already had a greater impact. The players could already drop to 200.00 for the masses, which would have made it easier to grab market share.

My other pet peeve is the constantly changing interfaces. I finally get a really good thing going using firewire from the DVD player to the receiver, which sends the stream directly (including SACD) to the output stage (and it is easy to hear the improvement over optical/coaxial). So what happens? We now have HDMI, and stopped supporting DVI/Firewire (which one could argue that it is BETTER to split out than combining audio and video signals) 

[jqp]

yeah not to change the subject but I love firewire and dislike USB and HDMI

[Woodsea]

FYI
SAN FRANCISCO--Intel and others plan to release a new version of the ubiquitous Universal Serial Bus technology in the first half of 2008, a revamp the chipmaker said will make data transfer rates more than 10 times as fast by adding fiber-optic links alongside the traditional copper wires.

Intel is working fellow USB 3.0 Promoters Group members Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard, Texas Instruments, NEC and NXP Semiconductors to release the USB 3.0 specification in the first half of 2008, said Pat Gelsinger, general manager of Intel's Digital Enterprise Group, in a speech here at the Intel Developer Forum.

In an interview after the speech, Gelsinger said there's typically a one- to two-year lag between the release of the specification and the availability of the technology, so USB 3.0 products should likely arrive in 2009 or 2010. A prototype shown at the speech is working now, and USB 3.0 will have optical and copper connections "from day one," he added.

The current USB 2.0 version has a top data-transfer rate of 480 megabits per second, so a tenfold increase would be 4.8 gigabits per second. Many devices don't need that much capacity, but some can use more, including hard drives, flash card readers and optical drives such as DVD, Blu-ray and HD DVD. The fastest flash card readers today use IEEE 1394 "FireWire" connections that top out at 800 megabits per second.

In addition, USB 3.0 will offer greater energy efficiency, Gelsinger said. It will be backward compatible, so current USB 2.0 devices will be able to plug into USB 3.0 ports.

[jqp]

Interesting news on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks available in Europe

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/format-war/blu+ray+only-titles-found-abroad-in-region+free-hd-dvd-312535.php