[TONEPUB]

The good news for classical lovers is that there is already so many good recordings out there...

And if you are a vinyl lover, nows the time to buy.  I got some fantastic box sets at a local
used record store the other day for next to nothing!! They were marked $20 each and I
walked up to the counter with ten of them and said "come on, nobody listens to classical
any more..."

Got all ten for $30!  And it looks like none have been played....

I know this is evil, but it does work.

[macrojack]

Sorry. Maybe there is life elsewhere. Here in the outpost, there are few signs of growth or progress. Just more natural gas wells and more houses and more road construction.

Doesn't it make sense, however, that the standards for recordings will decline as fewer and fewer people (must be statistically zero already) require a higher sound quality? If everyone is listening to MP-3, why bother to pay for producing something those devices can't render?
I think that HT has changed the focus from music to sound effects long ago and that the trend is to move ever further in that direction. You know, just like special effects have pretty well overtaken the need for acting.

[opaqueice]

Well, I don't think there was anything inaccurate in my post, and I can back up my claims rather thoroughly - but that would take us pretty far off-topic.

I wonder whether people complained when vinyl phonograph disks replaced cylinders.  After all, a cylinder is intrinsically superior, because (unlike a disk) the velocity of the needle remains constant as you go along.  Apparently disks won because they were easier to manufacture (you could stamp them).  I'm sure there were many people at the time quite upset about that, and worried about the degradation in SQ inherent in a changing speed.  Maybe they wondered if it was the end of hifi, or of audiophiles? 

Isn't it music that really matters?  If so, how can it possibly be a bad thing that more people are listening to it?

[bpape]

I personally think you're over generalizing.  Not everybody listens to MP3.  Even some that do, do so ONLY on their portable devices where you're not going to get the fidelity of a decent recording anyway.  In their home, how many of them listen to WAV or FLAC?  I guess is significantly more than statistically zero.

If MP3 is the only viable format and nothing will ever need to be any better than MP3, then why would a Microsoft continue to support other formats which are capable of much higher resolutions?  Why would Logitech (after buying Slim Devices and according to strong rumor) upgrade the not yet released SB4 to handle 24/96 signals?  These companies don't make money by spending R&D and implementation money on things that they don't think will return a profit.  

The shift to HT has potentially gotten more people to spend more money on HT systems rather than 2 channel only.  But a lot of folks I know expect their systems to do both.  Do you think people would tolerate MP3 quality in movie soundtracks with the limited resolution and dynamic range?  I don't.

Bryan

[Daygloworange]

Doesn't it make sense, however, that the standards for recordings will decline as fewer and fewer people (must be statistically zero already) require a higher sound quality? If everyone is listening to MP-3, why bother to pay for producing something those devices can't render?
I think that HT has changed the focus from music to sound effects long ago and that the trend is to move ever further in that direction. You know, just like special effects have pretty well overtaken the need for acting.

You have to look at was has been the evolution for this new generation macrojack, and put it in context.
They are the newer Playstation video game generation. The rapid evolution of the computer generated graphics and sound and visceral effects that these games and movies involve today, leaves them in awe of the "realism".  They crave better graphics, more realism, better sounds etc...

I think that, as they get older, it will carry over.

I know a few people in their early 20's that were brought up on MP 3's that can't listen to them anymore, and have evolved to better quality audio formats, like lossless files on their computers. As new "HiFi" technology like lossless becomes the norm, and economies of scale take precedance, and as file storage becomes dirt cheap, MP 3 technology will go by the wayside. Much like VHS did.

Cheers

[Bob in St. Louis]

The shift to HT has potentially gotten more people to spend more money on HT systems rather than 2 channel only.  But a lot of folks I know expect their systems to do *****both*****.  Do you think people would tolerate MP3 quality in movie soundtracks with the limited resolution and dynamic range?  I don't.

{Highlighted for dramatic effect} 
Amen Brother. I expect mine to do both very well. To the point where I'm considering deleting all of the old low quality Napster stuff I downloaded "before audiophiledom". I'd rather not have it, than to have crap. That stuff sounded good Before I saw the light.
If Hollywood ever decided to crap up the soundtrack quality, I'd have to be as selective of the movies I purchase as I am the songs I choose to buy/save/rip/store. I've thrown away songs and movies alike because they suck.
Personnally, I doubt they'd ever do that Bryan, too many budding "HTophiles" out there. Unfortunately, If anything kicks the bucket, it'll be 2 channel. 

Bob

[TONEPUB]

Here's a little something that you might be missing.

And I had a bit of enlightenment attending the recent CEDIA show in
Denver last week, so I got it first hand.

I was the first one to dismiss home theater, but boy have I changed
my tune!  There's a lot of really cool stuff out there!  Am I going to
abandon my two channel rig, no way, but I am digging my heels
into HT in a big way going forward.

Why?

The screens have gotten affordable!

Back when Plasmas were 10-15k, everyone spent their money on
the screen and they were out of dough by the time it got time to
buy electronics, so they traded two good speakers for six lousy
ones, but not any more....

The good news is that the HT companies (that make amps and
speakers) keep selling great sound, that means they have enough
capital to keep making great 2ch stuff as well. 

I pulled a lot of them on the side to chat and most of them still
love 2ch, they just have to feed their families.

Again everybody wins.

And guess what was playing on almost all of the big screens
going at the show?

Music!  I saw way more concert videos than I did movies.

So again, I'm more excited than ever.  And considering that it
cost almost a hundred bucks to take my wife, daughter and two
of her freinds to the movies (and buy them snack treats) the other
night, I definitely want a big screen, even if it only has 2.1 for the
soundtrack!

[Bob in St. Louis]

I am digging my heels into HT in a big way going forward.

Yup.  <----HINT check where the smiley came from.  aa

Bob

[WGH]

People love "better and improved" technology.
Standard over the air TV broadcasts are a lot clearer due to Digital OTA broadcasts.
Home video is a lot cleaner with the move to the DVD format.
And the sound of both formats have improved along with the picture, so it stands to reason that other recorded media will eventually improve including the dreaded MP3. We just need a little more patience.

Apple's new iPod Touch will guarantee total saturation of the MP3 player market. In a couple of years anyone wanting an MP3 player will now own one and have downloaded most of the old and new music the have always craved and finally online music sales will take a slight dip...and then it happens:

A new music format emerges!

This new format (yet un-named) will have amazing quality that will blow away all previous compression formats, and just like movies on VHS moving to DVD's, and music on vinyl moving to CD's, MP3 music lovers will have this urge to purchase their music catalog all over again along with a new player.

When will this happen?

VHS started in 1976.
DVD started in 1995.
High definition started in 2005, so 10 years look like a good number to ensure market saturation.

1958 the first LP stereo recording were made.
1980 the CD emerged.
1998 the MP3 arrived.
I predict in 2008 a new format arrives.

But I don't care - I'm sticking with vinyl but then I also have a killer HT setup.

[darrenyeats]

1958 the first LP stereo recording were made.
1980 the CD emerged.
1998 the MP3 arrived.
I predict in 2008 a new format arrives.

I see where you're coming from with re-selling catalogues. Too true.

On the other hand, there is a better format than mp3 *already* waiting in the wings...called CD. SACD and DVD-A have already proved to the industry that no-one is willing to throw out their CDs and pay for something else (in theory) better. What is going to change? People will migrate from mp3 to CD.
Darren

[Bob in St. Louis]

This new format (yet un-named) will have amazing quality that will blow away all previous compression formats,

True, but "they" won't use it to it's fullest potential and much it all up. Just like they did with CD's. 

Bob

[aerius]

Daryl's point was that one can apply precisely the same argument to many audiophiles.    How do we know MP3 is lower fidelity?  Because it has increased distortion, an altered harmonic balance, and it just sounds bad.  Well, guess what - SET amplifiers have much higher distortion than SS.

Back in the 50's, Western Electric built 300B amplifiers with a THD of 0.2% or less, which is well over an order of magnitude better than the vast majority of current designs and comparable with solidstate.  Some are starting to figure out how to do this once again.

Single driver speakers have pretty terrible harmonic characteristics compared to conventional.  And all that degradation in sound quality can be heard quite clearly. 

You'd be surprised actually at how miserable some of the drivers used in conventional hi-fi audio are these day.  There's lots of metal, carbon, and kevlar coned drivers which have absolutely horrible resonances and breakup modes, and let's just say not too many people have figured out how to make crossovers which can deal with these issues.


Personally I think the hi-fi mainstream, at least in speakers and amps has mostly stagnated for the last 5-10 years.  The fringe is still being actively pushed by small adventurous companies and the DIY folks, and progress is being made.  I think the future lies in not in the drivers from Scanspeak, Seas, and so forth, but in prosound drivers, such as the ones from Beyma which combine high efficiency with loads of power handling capability and relatively benign breakup characteristics.  It's a different sound, cleaner, a lot more dynamic even at earbleed volumes, and a friendlier load for amplifiers as well.

[Steve Eddy]

Just to pick a nit here, MP3 isn't a format. It's a codec. Format refers to the physical media and how the information is stored on it.

se

[arthurs]

I really think it's an and/both discussion versus an either/or

My 15 year old came upstairs to my listening room the other night (doesn't happen too often, but he's listened his share over the years)  He was very inquisitive about both vinyl and tubes and we went deep on room treatments as well.  We spent a long time talking and doing some a/b with digital and vinyl, plus rolled a few tubes so he could hear the differences.  He began asking to hear specific music, some mine, some his....he commented the he had never heard the Toadies "Rubberneck" sound so incredible and that there were parts of the music he hadn't realized were there before...it was a great few hours for me as a Dad and secondarily as a hobbiest to be able to share my passion with someone who was obviously discovering what a quality (my humble opinion of mine) listening room and system can make you feel and understand with music....he was also pretty geeked about the section of my will that leaves my gear to him, which had always been more of an irony to him before....a couple days later he was back again and we spent a couple more hours listening and talking....

Fast forward to a few days past that and he stopped on his way out the door and said how cool the other couple nights were and he wanted to do it more often...he then strapped on his ear buds spun up the volume on his iPod and walked out to catch his bus...

There may be room for both in the future generation....

[WGH]

Just to pick a nit here, MP3 isn't a format. It's a codec. Format refers to the physical media and how the information is stored on it.

se

And then again maybe I did mean Format
http://news.zdnet.com/2422-13569_22-156258.html

But it is a very nice nit, so maybe not.   

[Russell Dawkins]

WGH,

I wonder how old that clip is that you linked to.

The speaker finishes by saying that "experts predict that over the next few years we can look forward to storage devices having terrabyte capacity in the volume of a few CDs. His hand gestures suggest a size about three times that of the newer Lacie 2 TB drives!

[bpape]

Format can also be used to describe the layout of a file structure.

http://www.sonicspot.com/guide/fileformatlist.html

I believe all of those can be stored on the physical CD media.  CODEC is the method by which information is enCOded and DECoded - hence CODEC. 

http://www.nch.com.au/acm/formats.html

[Steve Eddy]

Format can also be used to describe the layout of a file structure.

http://www.sonicspot.com/guide/fileformatlist.html

I believe all of those can be stored on the physical CD media.  CODEC is the method by which information is enCOded and DECoded - hence CODEC. 

http://www.nch.com.au/acm/formats.html

Well yes, a digital file can have a data structure that one can rightly call a "format." But I was speaking to the context in which "format" was being used here, i.e. the physical media used for delivery of the information. LP. VHS. Compact Disc. CD-ROM. DVD. DVD-A. SACD. Etc.

se

[WGH]

WGH,

I wonder how old that clip is that you linked to.

2005 at the latest, that is when the author died.

Just for grins here is another quote from Nov. 28, 2005 "Information storage media company Maxell has said it will launch its first holographic storage products in September 2006. The first removable drive will have a capacity of 300GB and a throughput of 160mbps."

And we are still waiting - I bet Steve Jobs will be the first to demo the first holographic storage iPod and start selling Apple Lossless iTunes.

Are there any good online stores that sell albums in wav format? I would buy more new music if I could download $10 albums. I already use my computer as a music server.

[TONEPUB]

Music giants....

www.musicgiants.com