[TONEPUB]

Much as I'm digging high end digital and music servers, I hope Scott is right
about analog!!  It's been great to see so much vinyl getting pressed, and most
of it's great.

I really like just being able to enjoy music, no matter what format it's produced
on!

We have way more choices than ever....

[Daygloworange]

There is no "transformation" available any more above 2k in digi players.

Again, based upon what frame of reference?  What do you know that we don't?

I don't know what the top-of-the-line Bolder units are going for these days (the "Statement" mods are probably above $2k), but as I've said in reference to my "old" Bolder source, I'd put it up against any digital rig extant, regardless of price.

nope, i haven't.  but, based upon what i have heard, even if it's the best digital extant, regardless of price, i would wager it would be splitting hairs to determine how much better it is than what i have heard.  only so much blood you can squeeze from a stone, ya know?   

nothing today is better than 1976 anyway... really...

Guys, don't be so jaded. Come out to RMAF. There will be 2 rooms there that (I know) will have really, really great new products that might convince you that you're prematurely writing off some things about the advances in 2 channel audio.

Both GR Research and Bolder Cable will have their latest, greatest stuff on display. After hours, we will be getting Wayne to bring his latest digital front end over to Danny's room and running it in his new custom amps, and his new benchmark speaker creations.   

I run stuff from both these guys, and can tell you I'm all s*@t's and giggles, and I don't yet have their most current offerings.

At least then we can say we listened to the same gear with our own ears, and then it'll be apples to apples when discussing opinions.

Things have come a long way since 1974.... 

Cheers

[Double Ugly]

Can I assume my inclusion in the "jaded" group was an oversight, Denny? 

[Daygloworange]

Sorry DU,

I didn't mean to inadvertantly include you. I don't have to convince you about the significant improvements that can be achieved with a digital front end.

We be talkin' the same mojo, y'know! 

Cheers

[darrenyeats]

Sorry DU,

I didn't mean to inadvertantly include you. I don't have to convince you about the significant improvements that can be achieved with a digital front end.

We be talkin' the same mojo, y'know! 

Cheers

I am going to have another go - and I'll try not to be so negative this time. BTW all the following is assuming a level playing field of red book...

I don't question what you hear. In fact I believe you when you say 10k and 40k digi front ends sound - and I quote - "QUITE A BIT better" than the 2k rigs. Yes you read that right, I believe you.

What I am raising is the question of *why* you are hearing this. Is it because these ultra high end front ends *measure* QUITE A BIT better than 2k rigs? I think we can all agree, not really. In fact, if there was data showing 40k players are measurably a lot better than 2k players no-one would ever discuss this.

So we come then to ask whether "measurements" capture everything about SQ. I am willing to accept they might not. I agree we don't know everything about sound and human hearing. (I hear the vinyl guys cheering.)

So why do you hear this significant improvement? Is it because they really do produce QUITE A BIT better SQ, or could the answer be in the mind? I come back to the blind test. Without this, I really do believe any listening tests are swayed by peer pressure, suggestion, expectation, enthusiastic salesmanship, price-tags etc. I believe such things are very powerful. Since I did personally blind tests I've become convinced this power of the mind is real (read my story in last 3 paragraphs of reply #46 in this thread). What I hear is what I hear, but I'm not sure why - unless my ears are working alone. And I think this is all consistent with what made the vinyl guys cheer (namely, we don't know everything about sound and human hearing). Even if you don't believe any of this and see it as "psycho-babble", why not try a blind test anyway? It's fun!

So if anyone has done some properly level-matched blind testing and got some clear results from it, I will be listening intently. I appreciate - despite my earlier posts - that some of you don't feel the same way. I hope my comments were of value.
Darren

[macrojack]

Darren - All your blind testing will reveal is someone's preference. It says nothing definitive about the comparison. Audio reviews provide you with one person's opinion also. The whole issue is subjective and therefore arguments about it can never go anywhere but back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.....

You might as well be talking about beer of coffee. It's always a matter of taste, which is to say, personal preference. Nobody is right or wrong. What you like is right for you alone. Someone else may agree with you, but nobody has to.

Back on topic - High Fidelity probably will not die completely for a very long time because there will always be individuals who take an interest in its objectives and pursue them for personal pleasure, if not for personal gain. The audiophile industry, however, is dying a slow death. It is unlikely to outlive me. We have already seen an interest in vintage equipment from the earliest days of hi-fi and I think we will be seeing another such turn backwards in ensuing years because the profit focus is completely eclipsing the development focus in new product. Likewise, the current customer is unable to recognize real innovation and instead continues to embrace repackaged, recycled and regurgitated designing enthusiastically proclaiming it to be the latest innovation.

That closet full of equipment you are holding today may include some very sought after treasures in about 10 years.

The big question that this thread asks, I think, is about attrition. Are new audiophiles taking this hobby to heart as quickly as the old ones are taking leave of it? It started with drug-fueled Viet-Nam era purchase of receivers and grew as a sizable percentage of us explored the miracle of separates. Then, in the go-go 80s, audio jewelry was born and a status hierarchy was born as well. Prices escalated then and haven't stopped since.

But the audiophile who started out in the 80s or earlier, is getting old and dying or going broke or finding new interests like buying a house or starting a business or raising a family or sending one to college. Home theatre has provided a detour for some and a disillusionment for others. At what point do you just say, "I've had enough of the merry-go-round, I want off"? This whole show only continues if we fund it and times are getting tougher so funding will be drying up. Buying is slowing. Manufacturers are feeling it. Many will not be around in 2010. Chinese competition and old age will cause many to give up.

In the mean time, the arguments will rage on as many of you assert the clear cut supremacy of whatever you currently own and the rest of us will nod off. Old wine in new bottles.

[Double Ugly]

Hi Darren,

The problem with your comments above is multiple IMO, the first of which is that neither of those referenced in the quoted area of your post (Daygloworange and myself) made the comments so prominent in your post (that was TONEPUB).

Secondly, while you may have a point with TONEPUB, one of my major points was and is that you don't have to spend a lot more to get perhaps the best digital you've ever heard.  In fact, in many cases (mine included) moving to a Bolder-modified SB or Aberdeen-modified Transporter may represent a decrease in source expense.

So, since no one aside from TONEPUB is discussing $10-$40k digital rigs or claiming they're "QUITE A BIT better", how does this work?  Your assertion is that we hear what we want because it costs more, but what if it doesn't?  You say we hear what we want because we paid for it, but what if we didn't? 

I'll grant you TONEPUB's comments are much better fodder for defense of your position, but the majority of us are talking about Bolder Cable SBs and PSs.  That's where you initially came into the discussion ("I would like a blind test report rather than the enthusiastic opinions of someone who is listening sighted and just invested a lot of money into their newly modified player.")

IMHO, your point is quite valid when in reference to hyper expensive players - or hyper expensive anything for that matter - especially when the person writing the 'review' has just purchased the new toy.  But when -

• the product isn't expensive (relatively speaking),
• hasn't been purchased,
• and receives the closet thing I've seen to unanimous acclaim from those who've heard it...

...your explanation for our praise of the Bolder SB (and in my case, the Aberdeen Transporter as well) loses a lot of steam IMO.

And BTW, thank you for taking my comments so well, and for helping keep this discussion civil. 

DU

[doug s.]

chesky records, which produces some of the finest sounding cd's around, imo, uses mytek digital equipment in its studio.  who here has tried the mytek dac96, retailing at $1k?     supposedly better than the benchmark & lavry dac's, also at $1k, which a lot of folks rave about...  (which are not better than my trusty modded art di/o, fwiw...)

doug s.

[linkweewee]

So will those really good $25k-$40k cdps that TONEPUB writes about make me hate cds even more or will they make my cds sound better because I just  spent more than half a year's salary on a player that plays a musical medium that didn't have much of a chance sonically from day one? How does all that money make a cd sound 'better'? Doesn't 'perfect sound forever' sound good on cheaper player if it is perfect sound already? Are you cleaning the windows or fogging up the sound with players that expensive? What miniscule cross section of audiophilia is still spending that much dough trying to make cds sound good when they've sounded like shit for a long time? Manufacturers 25+ years after the cd's introduction still want us to believe that , if you throw enough money at cdps, that  cds will actually sound good for once and not vaguely irratating like they do now after about a half hour? Does a 40k cdp make the 1/4 of my barely tolerable in the car stereo 600 cds listenable?

[doug s.]

macrojack, i must take issue w/you that the audiophile industry is dieing a slow death.  the audiophile industry has never changed - a lunatic fringe group of fanatics.  it's been that way at least since the 1950's.  the "...drug-fueled Viet-Nam era purchase of receivers..." had absolutely nothing to do with audiophiles, and only a tiny percentage of those folks got into the audiophile thing.  of course hi-end mfr's are folding.  and new ones being born.  whether recycling old ideas, or developing new technologies.  that's cuz nothing has changed since the '50's, the market is lunatic-fringe, compared to what's going on around it.  as i (& yes, du), as david byrne said before:  "same as it ever was".

ymmv,

doug s.

[Imperial]

Well Linkweewee.
One does not have to buy the best disc player... but one should look for something that the wallet and the ears like!
It does not matter what the price is, you have to like the sound!!! It has to earn its way making music out of the little silver coasters!

I'm gonna go to the low price point here: Onkyo DX 7555. I've seen if for 480$
Put it on one of these: http://www.base-technology.no/base20.html
and you've got a combo that will REALLY be worth the money..
This is 1/50'th of the price of the top runners out there...
It'll play music.. pretty good! An it's 1,5ppm clock accuracy very few 40k players will match.. if that is important
And if you sell the 1/4 of your 600 cd's that you don't like ... I'm sure you are better off anyway!! 

Imperial

[darrenyeats]

Darren - All your blind testing will reveal is someone's preference. It says nothing definitive about the comparison. Audio reviews provide you with one person's opinion also. The whole issue is subjective and therefore arguments about it can never go anywhere but back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.....

You might as well be talking about beer of coffee. It's always a matter of taste, which is to say, personal preference. Nobody is right or wrong. What you like is right for you alone. Someone else may agree with you, but nobody has to.
 

I agree, deciding which is "best" with these types of products is purely subjective. Yet...I'm sure we've all witnessed blind tests of wine, cola and coffee on TV. Why? Blind testing is a technique for removing the effect of prejudice, branding, peer pressure, suggestion or group-think from the tasting or testing process. So you can decide which you like most - subjectively - based on the product taste (performance) itself and the product _only_. Otherwise, the result is not based purely on taste (or sound) but is swayed by other factors that don't belong e.g. does it have a Audio Research badge on it, or does everyone else like it!

Anyway...

On the subject of audiophiles I think that the real big spenders and the companies selling to them are living in their own little world. It's not about real improvement in sound quality. One example is how the active loudspeaker format is largely ignored by audiophiles, when there are many technical advantages to it.
Darren

[JLM]

Darren,

I fully agree with you regarding the advantages of "active" speakers.  Years ago I had the chance to compare Paradigm Studio 20 speakers ($800/pair small, two-way standmounts) versus Active 20 speakers (same drivers, very similar cabinet but with one amp per driver and low level crossover added, $1600/pair).  There was no competition.  The Actives were flatter, much more dynamic, and had eye-popping deep/full bass.  The Active 20s compared closely to the Studio 80s ($1600/pair mid sized floorstanders) but of course needed amplification added.

Soundstage did a review of the Active 40s about that same time.  More recently 6moons reviewed the PMC AML 1.  Both reviews admitted that most audiophiles wouldn't want to give up picking their own pairings speakers and amps, even though the active advantages were undeniable.

Around here single driver designs (which are "active" by default) and the Linkwitz Orion are the only active speakers to get much notice.

[TONEPUB]

I'm with you on the active speaker thing...

I've only heard the ones from Meridian but I really enjoyed them a lot.
I don't know why active speakers have never caught on here, but I've
always thought the concept has been really great, because the amps
would be matched to the speakers and in the end, you would need
less rack space and cables to buy!

We will definitely be sniffing down this path in the next year or so!

As for the comments on the mega players, I'll stick with my Naim,
but seriously, I've been hearing fantastic stuff in the 1500-4000
dollar range and I'm just as much if not more excited about that.

It's just like turntables, while there have been definitely some killer products
at the top of the food chain, more great stuff is available than ever
before in the 1500-2500 range and that's great news for everyone.

What you guys sometimes forget is that part of my job is to find
where the limits are.  On some occasions, I've gotten a bit spoiled
because of what I have access to.

But we still spend a lot of time looking for great products that are
more in the real world.  It's a lot more of a challenge to make a great
2000 CD player than a 35 thousand dollar one because you do have to
make compromises.  Same with any component.  I think that's why
the competition is so fierce.

You the consumer are the ones that benefit from this, so it's a good
day as far as I'm concerned!

[macrojack]

doug s. = My mileage does vary. I think that the disappearance of stereo stores is a noteworthy change. Anything that remains is kept afloat by home theatre. Many manufacturers are also holding on only because of HT. The industry consists of an aging core of audiophiles and a small percentage of newcomers. Demographics and projected life expectancies of the North American Couch Potato conspire to suggest that the end is nearing. Most of us geezers are cruising on nostalgia and momentum. When our eyes go up and our toes go down, we will be accompanied by the core of audiophile design, most of whom are over 50 years of age already.

There was a fellow named Chauvin who insisted that Napoleon would return from exile even though ole Bonaparte had expired some twenty years earlier. From him we got the term "chauvinist". It basically means blind faith and it is used to describe someone who clings to a belief that is unsupportable. I'm afraid your position on the imminent demise of high end audio makes you a chauvinist. 

[TheChairGuy]

macrojack...that was an awfully nice way of saying to doug 'stop smoking reefer and get real - stereo is mostly dead in the US'   

It probably lives on in greater numbers outside the US (and Canada, perhaps)...where we have high levels of disposable income, very well developed retail markets and larger homes, on average.  The rest of the world tens to have smaller homes, less conducive to multiple speakers (and even more conducive to less-dynamic vinyl playback) and perhaps outside of certain segments of the Middle East in Asia, smaller disposable income 

[Daygloworange]

(and even more conducive to less-dynamic vinyl playback)

I'm sensing that perhaps a moniker change to " TheVinylGuy" is imminent. 

Cheers

[TheChairGuy]

DGODenny,

Yeah, I'm pretty much a fraud now with my moniker...it never dawned on me that I'd be selling anything but chairs the rest of my days...isn't that weird?

Anyhow, I think IT'S been happening to me of late.  IT is aging and with it, subsequent hearing loss especially in the upper registers. I musta' been cursed with every good upper register hearing (believe me, I'm not saying I have golden ears, only that I focused on treble to the extent most audiophools didn't...so I am only assuming I had good upper register hearing).

Well, I think that curse of sorts has changed.  Where once I had trouble listening to any CD for long...I'm now listening quite a bit (the last couple months) to it without any stress or strain.

Three cheers for old age and near deafness  I can now enjoy most formats without pain now (I'm actually half-serious....you gotta find some ways to celebrate aging; there's not that many to cheer about  )

[Daygloworange]

I think you are now officially ready for a Squeezebox. 

Then you'll be "TheSqueezeboxGuy" 

Ahhahhhahh......

I kill me.....

Cheers   

[doug s.]

hi macro,

i must disagree w/you about this.  tho i find your description of me as a chauvinist re: hi-end audio is actually extremely funny!   

yes, i still believe that hi-end audio is, and always was a lunatic fringe endeavor.  yes, i also agree that the disappearance of hi-end audio stores is a noteworthy change.  but i believe it has nothing to do with the state of hi-end audio, & everything to do with the internet & the state of business marketing.  information & product is so readily accessible with yust the click of a mouse.  that's the reason hi-end stores are disappearing.  this phenomenon is affecting all retail, not yust hi-end audio.  and, as i said before, turnover in hi-end manufacturing is also nothing new - hi-end audio mfr's have always been popping up & disappearing at a relatively quick rate.  many new audio manufacturing companies that are now prospering seem to be geared more towards internet marketing & sales, than bricks & morter sales, which yust indicates what is changing is the way the hi-end audio biz is being transacted, not that hi-end biz is dieing.

as one who has always been interested in a bargain, & in buying used equipment, i remember that years ago, i would anxiously await the next issue of that underground used equipment rag "audiomart".  its demise was not cuz folks are no longer interested in hi-end bargains, if anything, folks are more interested in hi-end bargains than ever before, new and used.  but, the internet made "audiomart" superfluous...  in fact, this phenomenon is affecting all print media - all magazines, newspapers, journals, etc, are facing drastic changes in the way they have to do business.  does this mean that the information they pedal is no longer of interest to anyone, that the desire for the info they pedal is dieing?  of course not, it yust means the business model for purveying that info is changing...

yes, ymmv,

doug s.

doug s. = My mileage does vary. I think that the disappearance of stereo stores is a noteworthy change. Anything that remains is kept afloat by home theatre. Many manufacturers are also holding on only because of HT. The industry consists of an aging core of audiophiles and a small percentage of newcomers. Demographics and projected life expectancies of the North American Couch Potato conspire to suggest that the end is nearing. Most of us geezers are cruising on nostalgia and momentum. When our eyes go up and our toes go down, we will be accompanied by the core of audiophile design, most of whom are over 50 years of age already.

There was a fellow named Chauvin who insisted that Napoleon would return from exile even though ole Bonaparte had expired some twenty years earlier. From him we got the term "chauvinist". It basically means blind faith and it is used to describe someone who clings to a belief that is unsupportable. I'm afraid your position on the imminent demise of high end audio makes you a chauvinist.