[tuga]

Hello,

This is my first post here. I'm considering a pair of Omegas to partner a CD based Shigaraki system and would like to know which model would best match my room 11x15 + 11x11 1/2 feet (plan pictured below).
The ceiling is high at 11 feet, with 8 1/2 feet high windows and very thick and solid walls. I still haven't fully decorated, so it's currently sounding quite bright. Placement distance can go up to 3 feet from the back and 2 feet from sides.
I listen mostly when my son's gone to bed so levels are on the low. Musical tastes: acoustic instruments and vocals in small groups (jazz, ethnic), piano...

Thanks,
Ricardo

[tuga]

I forgot to say that a long wall setup could be an alternative but dependent on wife approval... 

[JLM]

Welcome Ricardo,

You've come to a good place.  And single driver speakers should be a good match for your situation.

When you consider pulling the speakers away from the back wall a meter or so (to allow the depth of soundstage to develop) and sitting away from the back wall (to avoid excessive bass reinforcement), you'll be sitting "nearfield" (or roughly in an equilateral triangel between speakers and listener).  Sitting that close would allow you to more easily hear the sound "jump" from woofer to tweeter (and at the same time change sound at crossover frequency from a cone woofer to dome tweeter).  Single driver designs provide a seemless coherent sound.

Single drivers also concentrate on the all important midrange (where the heart of the music is) and the middle 8 octaves (40 - 10,000 Hz).  Many say that's not enough.  That without a smaller driver high frequencies will "beam" (like a flashlight).  Or that without a bigger driver it won't go low enough or loud enough.  This is mostly marketing hype (especially for the kind of music you've described).  Listen to a frequency spread of test tones with a sound pressure meter.  It will only take a few minutes to find out 90 dB is very loud and barely any music exist below 40 Hz or above 10,000 Hz.  Without high volumes a single driver (some, not all) can play low.  And by aiming the drivers you can tune the highs to your taste.

Single drivers have another huge advantage, they are by definition "active" (one channel of amplification per driver).  This direct connection allows the amp to "see" a simple load (without being "confused" or "masked" by a crossover).  The resulting advantages are undeniable.  Flater frequency response, much improved dynamics, and greatly increased depth/power of bass.  And single drivers can do all this with a simple ordinary stereo amp or pair of monoblocks.

Choosing the right single driver speaker falls primarily on the selection of driver.  In these designs the driver has "no place to hide".  Don't skimp (go cheap) on it.  Yet picking a driver involves much personal tasting.  To me, Lowthers are too detailed, they force my brain into analytical mode but I listen primarily to reach the emotive side.  Like Lowthers, most (not all) Fostex drivers can sound thin and have a "forward" (shouty) midrange.  A forward sound is the last thing you'll want as you'll be sitting only a couple of meters away.

The cabinets primarily affects only frequencies below 300 Hz and mostly below 100 Hz. 

Louis is a real gentleman and does great work.  His cabinets are beautiful.  I've not heard his current offerings.

[tuga]

Hello JLM,

Thanks for your informative post.
Like you, I have a stereo so that I can listen to music, not recorded information...

Cheers,
Ricardo

[schotter]

Hey Ricardo,
I have a complete Shigaraki (on the CD side) based system with Omega Super 3XRS/hemps but my room looks very different from yours.
Your listening preferences sound like you could be thrilled by the strengths of this combo (guitar and voice a nearfierld listening is just insanely good) but I also have to say that it is a very revealing one.
For me, it makes almost all rock and thinly recorded music difficult to enjoy.
Again, I am basing this on Shigaraki CD/DAC/amp/OTA cable, cannot really comment on other op or tube amps from experience.
Check out this post from Ikakenewa, it exactly sums up my findings (although Boston was never my cuppa tee):
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=35524.70

If single drivers are up your alley (they still are up mine), it's worth looking into Louis' creations since they are well designed and exceptionally beautiful...Maxhemp, Superhemp... Plus he is a kool guy.

[tuga]

Hey Ricardo,
I have a complete Shigaraki (on the CD side) based system with Omega Super 3XRS/hemps but my room looks very different from yours.
Your listening preferences sound like you could be thrilled by the strengths of this combo (guitar and voice a nearfierld listening is just insanely good) but I also have to say that it is a very revealing one.
For me, it makes almost all rock and thinly recorded music difficult to enjoy.
Again, I am basing this on Shigaraki CD/DAC/amp/OTA cable, cannot really comment on other op or tube amps from experience.
Check out this post from Ikakenewa, it exactly sums up my findings (although Boston was never my cuppa tee):
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=35524.70

If single drivers are up your alley (they still are up mine), it's worth looking into Louis' creations since they are well designed and exceptionally beautiful...Maxhemp, Superhemp... Plus he is a kool guy.

Hello schotter,

Thanks for the info.
I'm also using OTA all over and have an all Shigaraki CD combo + amp... What level position do you usually set your amplifier?
What would be the benefits and drawbacks of using a Compact Hemp and not a Super 3 XRS?

Cheers,
Ricardo

[schotter]

Most of my listening is in the range of '2-4' of the volume slider with CD (although recently I used a passive EQ and that robs some volume and I end up sliding up to around '7'). The XRS are quite efficient for this amp and with the Shigaraki CD your problem won't be the lack of volume, with a small room and your son asleep rather the opposite.
I would have to guess about the compact hemps since I never heard them. I could imagine larger drivers are not quite as fast but a bit beefier in the lower mids..? Maybe some owners on this forum have heard both and could share their impressions.

[tuga]

My problem is not lack of volume but having to work between 0,5 and 1,5 

The 5''single driver pair I'm currently using has 91dB @ 8Ohms and I never go beyond 3 (usually between 15, and 2,5).

[rajacat]

Don't forget about the Hemp Bi/Dipoles. They might require a greater distance from the back wall but 3 feet might be OK. Presently I'm using my  Hemp Omegas in the dipole mod and biamping them with Trends 10.1 amps and employing a Mapletree line 3A SE tube preamp. I also have an ACI Titan sub to fill in the bottom but Louis's new sub is tempting me . This setup provides simply stunning detail retrieval and separation. You get the added displacement of dual 4 1/2" drivers to provide body and ambiance while retaining the awesome speed of the little hemps. Biamping is a natural since you have essentially 4 separate speaker enclosures contained within two cabinets with four sets of connectors. There have are instances that I've been in another room and I thought someone had entered the house but instead it was some voices in a live recording in the background that sounded SO real. Relatively minor tweaks can make a substantial difference because of extreme sensitivity and detail retrieval so they must be chosen carefully.

Raj

[tuga]

Don't forget about the Hemp Bi/Dipoles. They might require a greater distance from the back wall but 3 feet might be OK. Presently I'm using my  Hemp Omegas in the dipole mod and biamping them with Trends 10.1 amps and employing a Mapletree line 3A SE tube preamp. I also have an ACI Titan sub to fill in the bottom but Louis's new sub is tempting me . This setup provides simply stunning detail retrieval and separation. You get the added displacement of dual 4 1/2" drivers to provide body and ambiance while retaining the awesome speed of the little hemps. Biamping is a natural since you have essentially 4 separate speaker enclosures contained within two cabinets with four sets of connectors.

O.K., let's go step by step:

1. What would be the advantages and disadvantages of the COMPACT HEMP over the SUPER 3 XRS?

2. What's BIPOLE and why should I go for it? Bi-amping is out of the question for me...

3. What's DIPOLE and why should I go for it?

4. Does the SUB have to be positioned in the middle between the speakers? If so, I can't have one. It's also not in line with the minimal approach of my 47 system...

5. I just sold a pair of 5'' single drivers because I feel these speakers couldn't fill my 30m2 3,30m high room. Could it be due to the small size of the driver? Also because upwards firing drivers, high reflective walls, springy wooden floors and resonant cabinets don't mix. 

P.S.: Forget the BIPOLES: I can't have my speakers 4 feet from the back wall... 

[JLM]

The compact hemp is a Louis modified driver from Brown Sound.  Lots of positive reviews of hemp and hemp composite drivers.  (Hemp has longer, stronger fibers than paper.)  Louis gets remarkable performance out of the Fostex FE127E drivers used in the Super 3/XRS speakers, but it's only a $38 driver and gets thin and nasty at high sound pressure levels.  Frankly Louis' cabinets deserve better.

Dipole is the typical plannar phenom.  Think of mounting a single cone in an open baffle.  It pushes air forward out the front while pulling air forward from the back.  The larger waveforms from lower frequencies cancel in the plane of the baffle.  Provides a large diffuse soundstage.  These don't provide pin-point imaging, more like what you'd experience at live performance.  Louis uses two matching drivers in ported cabinets.

Bipole is similar but opposite.  It uses two drivers, but both push out at the same time so that the lower frequencies don't cancel as with the dipoles.

With two matching drivers per channel you can also vary the impedance (cutting in half or doubling) depending on how you connect them.

Yeah I figured you didn't have the room for dipole/bipole speakers.

Sub positioning is room dependant.  Theories abound on the ideal position.  The advantages of using a su         y:  take the heavy lifting off the woofer/main driver and it's amp; position for ideal bass reinforcement and imaging are almost never the same; with single driver speakers it still maintains "active" design benefits; you can easily adjust the depth/amount of bass; and you can pull it out when you move from a larger to smaller room.

I am so with you on minimalist thinking.     I have single driver speakers, chip based (similar to the 47's) monoblocks, and a CDP.  I use Element Cables for all wiring.  That's it.  (Although the plan is to try with digital room equalization with my room treatments to see if things can be further improved here in my Cardias designed, insulated room.) 

A 99 meter^3 room (3500 cu. ft. for us Americans) is quite big, but the new room you're showing above is still a nice sized room (2000 cu. ft.) but quite cubic.  I can easily understand why 5 inch drivers wouldn't push enough bass to fill the bigger room.  The new cubic room could be a nightmare as standing wave effects from echos between opposite surfaces would be tripled as all three distances between opposite surfaces are rather close to the same.  I'd suggest adding absorption panels (see the Acoustics circle here at AC).

In the new cubic room you could fill the room with anything from 5 inch to 8 inch drivers.  I listen nearfield (1.7 meter equalateral triange between speakers and me) in a room of about the same volume to 8 inch drivers at normally moderate levels to mostly small ensemble classic, jazz, and pop.  But with the concerns for standing waves I'd shy away from lots of bass.

Most of us aren't in Europe, so we aren't overflowing with ideas that wouldn't involving import fees or major shipping.  Lowthers (the grand daddy of extended range drivers), Fertin (field coils, supposed to be good but know little about them), Supervox (again don't know much about them), and the 9 inch Visaton B200 extended range driver (some would call a mid/tweeter) all about all the European extended range drivers I can think of.  The rest come from the Far East.  A very intriguing Japanese driver that would fit into the 47 scheme is the Feastrex:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0107/diy_loudspeaker_project.htm

In fact "Enjoy the Music" and "TNT" are two European based electronic audio magazines that should help with your search.

[schotter]

4. Does the SUB have to be positioned in the middle between the speakers? If so, I can't have one. It's also not in line with the minimal approach of my 47 system...

http://www.sakurasystems.com/show/kai.html

If you want to go even simpler (no rack and the Shigarakis on the floor) then a sub will indeed be difficult.

[DaveC113]

The 4.5" driver in the Super 3 / XRS is a hemp driver.

Louis built his new Subwoofer the same dimensions (depth and width) as the compact hemp, so you could use the Subs as stands for the CH with some sort of decoupling device in between.

[rajacat]

Dipole is the typical plannar phenom.  Think of mounting a single cone in an open baffle.  It pushes air forward out the front while pulling air forward from the back.  The larger waveforms from lower frequencies cancel in the plane of the baffle.  Provides a large diffuse soundstage.  These don't provide pin-point imaging, more like what you'd experience at live performance.  Louis uses two matching drivers in ported cabinets.

Bipole is similar but opposite.  It uses two drivers, but both push out at the same time so that the lower frequencies don't cancel as with the dipoles.

With two matching drivers per channel you can also vary the impedance (cutting in half or doubling) depending on how you connect them.

Actually I find the imaging with the Omega Dipoles to be very good. I can place the instruments in a symphony orchestra or  jazz group with no problem. They are where they should be and they have space around them. I think that this might be somewhat dependent on room placement and choice of amplification.  My previous speakers were Ascend 340SE's which might not be particularly exceptional speakers but they were relatively small MTM's and were noted for their excellent imaging abilities. The Dipoles certainly matched the Ascends in the imaging department while providing much better tonal quality, detail and other attributes.

[Vinnie R.]

4. Does the SUB have to be positioned in the middle between the speakers? If so, I can't have one. It's also not in line with the minimal approach of my 47 system...

http://www.sakurasystems.com/show/kai.html

If you want to go even simpler (no rack and the Shigarakis on the floor) then a sub will indeed be difficult.

Hi Kai,

Beutiful looking system, and I'm sure it sounds great too! 

The 4.5" driver in the Super 3 / XRS is a hemp driver.

Louis built his new Subwoofer the same dimensions (depth and width) as the compact hemp, so you could use the Subs as stands for the CH with some sort of decoupling device in between.

Yes, Louis no longer uses Fostex... only his own hempcone drivers.  These are OEM versions that use the ToneTubby (A Brown Soun, Inc.) hempcone formulation.

The Super 3 Hemp XRS with the DeepHemp sub is a VERY NICE combo!  I heard it at Louis' before he had to leave to attend to a family emergency (which I posted about in this Omega Forum).

Actually I find the imaging with the Omega Dipoles to be very good. I can place the instruments in a symphony orchestra or  jazz group with no problem.

Same here!  Like you said.... Room Placement!

Best regards,

Vinnie

[tuga]

In the new cubic room you could fill the room with anything from 5 inch to 8 inch drivers.  I listen nearfield (1.7 meter equalateral triange between speakers and me) in a room of about the same volume to 8 inch drivers at normally moderate levels to mostly small ensemble classic, jazz, and pop.  But with the concerns for standing waves I'd shy away from lots of bass.

I also listen nearfield (1,9m triangle)... I though that because both rooms are linked by a fairly large opening I wouldn't have so much of the cubic room problem:

Most of us aren't in Europe, so we aren't overflowing with ideas that wouldn't involving import fees or major shipping.  Lowthers (the grand daddy of extended range drivers), Fertin (field coils, supposed to be good but know little about them), Supervox (again don't know much about them), and the 9 inch Visaton B200 extended range driver (some would call a mid/tweeter) all about all the European extended range drivers I can think of.  The rest come from the Far East.  A very intriguing Japanese driver that would fit into the 47 scheme is the Feastrex:

I had already looked into the above options when I once had a dream of trying an open baffle, but that was when my little boy wasn't destructive... 

Fertin and Feastrex (and also the famous PHY-HP) are very expensive, Supervox and Visaton are whithin my reach...but I'd have to find a carpenter and a good design. And a way to protect the drivers from some very destructive tiny fingers and teeth.

[tuga]

http://www.sakurasystems.com/show/kai.html

If you want to go even simpler (no rack and the Shigarakis on the floor) then a sub will indeed be difficult.

You are lucky because you can have your system lying around unprotected but unfortunately I cannot. 

No Shigarakis on the floor for me - they would last one day.

[tuga]

The 4.5" driver in the Super 3 / XRS is a hemp driver.

Louis built his new Subwoofer the same dimensions (depth and width) as the compact hemp, so you could use the Subs as stands for the CH with some sort of decoupling device in between.

How much does the subwoofer unit cost?

Super 3 XRSs cost around 1650 USD in Europe...If shipping were cheap I might order them directly as I have to pay 27% TAX on top of goods+shipping cost = 950+100+tax = 1390 USD

[Vinnie R.]

The 4.5" driver in the Super 3 / XRS is a hemp driver.

Louis built his new Subwoofer the same dimensions (depth and width) as the compact hemp, so you could use the Subs as stands for the CH with some sort of decoupling device in between.

How much does the subwoofer unit cost?

Super 3 XRSs cost around 1650 USD in Europe...If shipping were cheap I might order them directly as I have to pay 27% TAX on top of goods+shipping cost = 950+100+tax = 1390 USD

Hi tuga,

See: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=44563.0

I would give Louis a call when he gets back (hopefully within a week).  The DeepHemp is a sweet addition to *any* of the Omega hemp speakers!

Cheers!

Vinnie

[tuga]

There is also the possibility of Louis later coming out with a Super 3 Hemp XRS Dipole, with the 8" DeepHemp Sub driver built into a sealed chamber on the bottom of the cabinet!

Hello Vinnie,

This Super XRS Dipole w/ 4,5'' + 8 '' drivers might interest me more than the Sub 
Do you need bi-cabling for such a set-up?

Best,
Ricardo