[Bob in St. Louis]

I've got two Windows based PC's that currently are sitting side by side in my HT room. Eventually, one will become "all things Home Theater" (JRiver Media Center, TrueRTA, Theanue[sp], music server, SqueezeBox maybe etc...) and be remotely controlled mounted in the equipment rack.

I'm trying to get them to talk to each other. Is it necessary I have a router? Or can I simply link the two via the Cat6 or a USB cable? I have no intention of both of them being on line at the same time. When all is said and done, the HT rig won't ever be on the net unless it's finding music tags.


Both PC's have network adaptor build in.
Internet connection is dial-up (no broadband available)
One of them is "my daily driver": 1.5 year old Dell XPS400 with Windows XP MCE dual core.
The Gateway has a fresh version of Windows XP Pro SP2. Pentium 4.


When the Gateway PC is turned on, this PC pops up a flag saying, "Local area connection is now connected, speed 100Gbps".
So, I know it "see's" it, it just won't talk to it, or visa versa....
Been to M.S. support, but....well,.....now I thought I'd come to the real professionals. 
The Dell (this one) was connected to a XBox360 and was networking (sometimes when it felt in the right mood ) But I've removed the Cat6 and plugged it in the Gateway PC.
I've got as many firewalls turned off as I can find in the various safeguard programs.


Please use small words, as networking is new to me. Hopefully I gave enough info.
Thanks Guys,
Bob

[numa]

It sounds like you would like the 2 computers to be able to see each other.  no, you don't 'need' a router.  Things will work better if you do have one, since both machines can use your broadband connection at once, without the annoyance of microsoft connection sharing, and you would have a good filter between your pc and the world. 

But if you want to do it the way you are doing this, then....

http://tech.yahoo.com/gd/sharing-a-hard-drive-over-a-home-network/153494

[Rashiki]

I'm trying to get them to talk to each other. Is it necessary I have a router? Or can I simply link the two via the Cat6 or a USB cable? I have no intention of both of them being on line at the same time. When all is said and done, the HT rig won't ever be on the net unless it's finding music tags.

To connect them to each other by ethernet, you'll need either:
A) a router
B) an ethernet switch or hub
C) a CAT5/CAT6 crossover cable

For options B and C you'll need to assign IP addresses for each of the two computers. For option A the router can assign the addresses.

Using a USB connection is an option, but you'll need some sort of device in the middle. USB has "host" and "device" categories, but you can't connect two hosts or two devices -- you can only connect a host to a device. That's the reason why USB cables have two different plugs on either end.

I hope that helps.

 -Rob

[Bob in St. Louis]

since both machines can use your broadband connection at once,

No broadband available here. Only dial up.

I'll check your link in the AM, getting late now. Thank you.

Rob,
Option "A" seems unnecessary and costly,
Option "B" seems slightly unnecessary and costly, maybe.
Option "C" sounds interesting. I don't know what a 'crossover' cable is. Looks like something I need to Google in the AM. But this option appears to be inexpensive.
I thought this project was going to (relatively) as simple as the Cat6 from PC to XBox360. It was (almost) as simple as plugging both ends and answering a few questions. Good information about the USB cables having different ends. I've wondered that. Never seen equivalent ends on one cable before but I've never looked for it either. It seems based on your description that I could call one of the PC's 'the host' and the other 'a device'......But then I'd still be left with needing a cable with the proper ends.???
When you say USB needs a device in the middle, A cheap hub from Walmart is all I'd need?? Then PC #2 could plug in and be considered 'a device'.
Since I'd be needing a cable run of about 25' when I get things where I want them, is the Cat cable a better idea than USB?


Thanks guys
bob

[Rashiki]

Option "A" seems unnecessary and costly,

You can get a router for under $40. Heck, I'll give you one if you pay the shipping cost -- I've got an old one in my attic.

Option "B" seems slightly unnecessary and costly, maybe.

You can buy an ethernet hub for under $20. Even Staples (which is rarely the cheapest place) sells ethernet switches for $27.
http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&prodCatType=1&catalogId=10051&productId=16779&cmArea=SC3:CG58:DP1804:CL141702

Option "C" sounds interesting. I don't know what a 'crossover' cable is. Looks like something I need to Google in the AM. But this option appears to be inexpensive.

A crossover cable just swaps the transmit/receive wires so you can have two computers talk to each other without a hub or switch between them. This would cost you less than $10. Of course, many modern PC ethernet adapters are autosensing and will automatically do the swap for you, so try a regular cable first. If you do need a crossover cable, here's one at Staples for $7.50:
http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&prodCatType=1&catalogId=10051&productId=151432&cmArea=SC3:CG58:DP1426:CL140456

I thought this project was going to (relatively) as simple as the Cat6 from PC to XBox360. It was (almost) as simple as plugging both ends and answering a few questions.

Sounds like either your xbox or PC is autosensing, so you may not need the crossover cable. Your original thought may be correct; however, Windows networking can be a pain in the butt. It's rarely as simple or straightforward as it ought to be.

Good information about the USB cables having different ends. I've wondered that. Never seen equivalent ends on one cable before but I've never looked for it either. It seems based on your description that I could call one of the PC's 'the host' and the other 'a device'......But then I'd still be left with needing a cable with the proper ends.???

No, sorry. Doesn't work that way. A PC is always "the host" -- that was how USB was designed. Now, firewire is different -- same connector on either end and it's designed to allow for everything to talk to each other, but that's a whole different can of worms.

When you say USB needs a device in the middle, A cheap hub from Walmart is all I'd need?? Then PC #2 could plug in and be considered 'a device'.

No, you need more than a USB hub -- that wouldn't work, even if you could find a combination of cables that would physically connect two PCs to your hub. You need something like this: http://www.cwol.com/usb/usb-2-usb-data-link-file-transfer-cable-uc250.htm It's effectively the device I'm talking about with two host connector cables built in.

Since I'd be needing a cable run of about 25' when I get things where I want them, is the Cat cable a better idea than USB?

USB has a maximum cable length of 5 meters (just over 15 feet). If you could find a USB transfer cable with the "device" in the middle, you could theoretically go up to 30 feet, but for that sort of distance, you're much better off with ethernet, since it can easily go 100 meters (over 300 feet).

 -Rob

[Bob in St. Louis]

Good morning Rashiki,
Thanks for taking the time to hold my hand and walk me through.

Ok, USB is out due to distance factors. Ethernet is in..
This looks good:

A crossover cable just swaps the transmit/receive wires so you can have two computers talk to each other without a hub or switch between them. This would cost you less than $10. Of course, many modern PC ethernet adapters are autosensing and will automatically do the swap for you, so try a regular cable first. If you do need a crossover cable, here's one at Staples for $7.50:
http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&prodCatType=1&catalogId=10051&productId=151432&cmArea=SC3:CG58:DP1426:CL140456

But, technically is a crossover cable any different that any other cable with ethernet sized jacks (RJ45) on it?
Isn't what I have a crossover cable? (looks like Cat wire with RJ45 plugs on both ends)

If what I've got is a crossover cable and everything I've done so far is correct, then the autosencing saved my butt the first time. And it must be on the XBox360 not the PC.
Just now I turned on the Gateway and instantly the Dell tells me connected at 1.0 Gbps and 731 packets sent, none received.  Niether PC appears to care much about the other one. 

Thank you for the offer, but it looks like the cable would be all I need.

[samplesj]

A crossover cable just swaps the transmit/receive wires so you can have two computers talk to each other without a hub or switch between them. This would cost you less than $10. Of course, many modern PC ethernet adapters are autosensing and will automatically do the swap for you, so try a regular cable first. If you do need a crossover cable, here's one at Staples for $7.50:
http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&prodCatType=1&catalogId=10051&productId=151432&cmArea=SC3:CG58:DP1426:CL140456

But, technically is a crossover cable any different that any other cable with ethernet sized jacks (RJ45) on it?
Isn't what I have a crossover cable? (looks like Cat wire with RJ45 plugs on both ends)

No a crossover cable is not the same as a normal cable.  Just as he said it switched the send/receive lines.  Lets make this simpler by refering to them as numbers.  There are 8 wires so lets say we have 12345678.  Normally both sides would be terminated the same, but on a crossover cable on one side it will be 36145278.

It just happens that many network cards today are able to see that they are hooked to another source vs a hub/switch so they flip those numbers for you and therefore a normal cable works.

[bpape]

The problem I see is that you're wanting the 2 to talk to each other but you say you have no intention of BOTH of them being online at the same time.  However, I assume you want the ability for either to be able to get to the outside world - correct?  If so, a router is BY FAR the easiest, most secure, most flexible way to go.  And as has been said, it's not terribly expensive.

If you don't use a router, then one has to be designated as a 'host' per se and all other online connectivity has to go through that one - so consequently, it has to be on and connected any time you want to get out with any of the other devices.

Having a router also provides another layer of security by providing whats called IP spoofing.  The only IP address seen to the outside world is your router.  The router in turn has a whole series of IP addresses that are only seen inside your internal network.

Bryan

[Bob in St. Louis]

Jeremy, Thanks man. That I understand totally. Now I can 'see' exactly what we're talking about now.

Bryan, You hit the nail on the head. Yes, I want them both to have access to the internet (not necessarily at the same time), but don't want to have to go through the aggravation you described if a router is not used.

OK, So I need to look at some routers. It just so happens that I'll be going to Walmart in a few minutes to exchange the 360 (again) for one that works.  I'll see what they have in the way of routers.

Guys thanks,
I let you know what happens.
Bob

[lonewolfny42]

http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&search_query=routers&Continue.x=12&Continue.y=8&Continue=Find&ic=24_0

[bpape]

That little Linksys for $49 is just what you need.  The software to control it is easy to use and set up.  It also gives you the option of wireless for your SB when you decide to go that way.  I run one of those and it's extremely reliable. 

Bryan

[woodsyi]

Bob,

Where in heck do you live that doesn't have broadband available this day and age?     I have a brand new Linksys WRT 54g still in plastic wrapper somewhere in my basement.  You can have it for the shipping charge from DC. 

[Bob in St. Louis]

Mr. Wolf, thanks for the link (you ARE the "linkmaster" ). Just got back from Wally world. The only one they had was the Linksys WRT54G and they wanted $60 for it. 
Not sure why it is so much more 'in store' as opposed to online. 
I didn't buy it. Wasn't totally sure I needed/wanted to spend $60 for something that has wireless capability when I wouldn't be using the wireless aspect without spending more cash on a PCI adaptor. I've already got a wire run from the PC desk to the EQ rack so wireless is unneeded, but would be nice for future upgrades for laptops or Squeezebox like Bryan mentioned. Since that Linksys unit we all seem to agree on has inputs for four wired PC's, I wouldn't be loosing the MCE "extender" feature of the XBox360 (although MCE Extender is a glitchy PITA and the whole reason I'm going this route in the first place).
More toys, more toys....  We all gotta have more toys.

Woodsyi, I firmly believe that I live in the last place in the continental United States that doesn't have broadband. 
But to answer your specific question regarding where I live, check your PM's.
That's an offer I can't resist. I think I'll have to swallow my pride and accept your offer.


Guys, thanks. You're all cool! 
Bob

[Bob in St. Louis]

POSSIBLE BAD THINGS

I don't have the unit yet. Should arrive today.

Woodsyi, I tried to PM you about this, but it says "you're full".

Here's my PM:

Hey woodsyi,
I was just skimming through the online manual for the router and happened to notice something in the 'troubleshooting' section. Here's a copy and paste with my biggest fears highlighted:

=========================================
Troubleshooting
Your computer cannot connect to the Internet.
Follow these instructions until your computer can connect
to the Internet:
Make sure that the Router is powered on. The Power
LED should be green and not flashing.
If the Power LED is flashing, then power off all of
your network devices, including the modem, Router,
and computers. Then power on each device in the
following order:
-Cable or DSL modem
-Router
-Computer
Check the cable connections. The computer should
be connected to one of the ports numbered 1-4 on
the Router, and the modem must be connected to the
Internet port on the Router.
The modem does not have an Ethernet port.
The modem is a dial-up modem for traditional dial-up
service. To use the Router, you need a cable/DSL modem
and high-speed Internet connection.
You cannot use the DSL service to connect manually to
the Internet.
After you have installed the Router, it will automatically
connect to your Internet Service Provider (ISP), so you no
longer need to connect manually.
The DSL telephone line does not fit into the Router’s
Internet port.
The Router does not replace your modem. You still need
your DSL modem in order to use the Router. Connect
the telephone line to the DSL modem, insert the setup
CD into your computer, and then follow the on‑screen
instructions.
============================================

Now my "Modem" as they're referring to it, is built in the PC. I have an ethernet port from the PC. But this worries my that I MUST have highspeed to use the machine.
Do you, by reading this, get the same impression? Or will it work and they're assuming anybody using a wireless router is going to have highspeed? Because this doesn't look good to me.

Bob - Worried

[woodsyi]

Bob,

I don't know.  I would think it can still be set up as a ethernet hub to link your PCs.  Have you thought about  Direct TV connection?  Not really broadband but still always on. 

BTW,  tracking says it was delivered today.

[Bob in St. Louis]

I hope so man.... 
It "seems" that the main PC would still have internet access but the one downstream, not sure.
I'll hook it up and see what happens. Kinda' lets the wind out of your sails, you know.

About the DirecTv thing,....$280 for equipment, and $50/month for satelite "up to 512Kbps/128Kbps". I think I'll pass. Co-workers are getting true highspeed for less. Maybe I'm stubborn, but I'd feel like I was getting ganked hard with that set-up.
I'm paying $10 now.

Bob

[bpape]

If you have high speed (cable modem through Charter or DSL modem) that's the modem they're referring to.  You won't use anything but your NIC (Network Interface Card - or chip) in the PC.   Cable/DSL comes into the house to the cable modem/DSL -> Router in -> out to various PC's

If you don't have high speed, then you basically need to have one machine that's on all the time dialed up and connected that will feed out to the router. 

Bryan

[Bob in St. Louis]

Thanks for the reply Bryan.
I totally understand about the way it works if highspeed is involved and a separate modem is used.
I've been trying to get past the set-up of the unit for about an hour+ and it won't let me. It wants a password, which the manual says needs to be the same password as used in my my ISP. But it won't let me past this point. It 'thinks' for a minute, then wants the password again. I assume it's trying to 'see' the highspeed connection. "Unhappy" with what it see's, because the connection isn't fast enough, it has me enter the password again. 
 
I'll try again in the AM.


Bob

[bpape]

OK.  Wasn't sure what your setup was.  Lemme see what I can dig up.

Bryan

[Bob in St. Louis]

Spent a little more time this morning. Keep hitting the same brickwall. 

Thanks Woodsyi, Thanks Bryan

Bob