[AJinFLA]

I'll go with that analysis.  I rode the 15k bike and while I could tell it was
better, I don't have enough seat time to really describe all the nuances.

Shame, shame. Some of these cable/audio differences are supposed to take week/months (years?) to bear fruition. Perhaps the same standard could have been applied .
 

With the hifi thing, because I spend 8-14 hours a day listening to a lot
of pretty good gear on a regular basis, it's gotten a lot easier to hear
the nuances than it was five years ago when I listened a couple hours
a day.

You mentioned this previously and I'll admit, you've got me there. I don't spend anywhere near the time listening to stereos and what the sound like as you do. I much prefer to listen to live music, mostly unamplified, so I know what that sounds like. That's my yardstick, not other stereos.

While it's hard to stay objective sometimes, we try our best....
No matter what the analysis, we will always get disagreements!

Good. Again, the thing is, why can't we have both? When was the law passed that one can't listen and measure, instead of listen and listen? I can at least give credit to Stereophile for attempting to do so (although I think they need to go further). Ramble on about liquidity and whatnot, but tell us if a loudspeaker is -6db at 100hz instead of -3db at 20hz. Heck, even a poor deaf close minded person like me can hear that .

cheers,

AJ

[Bigfish]

This thread has gotten to where it is really funny!  It is like two groups of people have split-up and shouting at each other across an electronic fence.  I think it is safe to say neither group is going to agree with the other and for certain people are free to spend their own money any way they chose to do so.  They really don't have to justify it to anyone!

Ken

[AJinFLA]

Since nobody else is going to step in here, I guess I will.

AJ and others,

Do us all a favor and just stop. Please give us all a break. You will NEVER win this age old argument. Neither will those of us that do hear the differences. So lets all accept the fact that we see and hear things differently from each other and STOP trying to provoke arguments just to force our own personal point of view on someone else. Both sides are well aware of the standard retorts in this nonsense. No further discussion is necessary.

That and stop dragging other unrelated crap (frozen pictures) into your conversations. It's more than obvious all you are trying to do is provoke people. Do us a favor and take that shit back to AA.



Mr Moderator....can we please lock (or better yet bin) this thread yet?

I would be in favor of instituting a new rule that forbids arguments about cables and IC's. Nearly each and every one always ends up getting trashed anyway. What is the point in allowing them?

Who's trying to win anything? As long as it remains civil, why not? If you find it so offensive Scott, why are your reading it? Hopefully you computer allows navigation away from sites/threads you find caustic. Mine does .

cheers,

AJ

[AJinFLA]

Where are you located in FL, AJ? 

What was the giveaway ?

I live in the middle of nowhere in MS, but if you don't mind driving up to Columbus, you're welcome to come by and compare your cables with some of mine if you like.

Some of my cables are relatively inexpensive, too, but some are what you might call extravagant.

You seem to be a friend of John's, and IMO that's sufficient qualification to offer the invite.  Just lemme know, but be advised that I have no measurement gear aside from my ears.  I've found them to be sufficient thus far, but if there's a better way, I'm open to suggestions.

-DU

Cool. If I travel, it's rarely to go hear other folks stereos, but thanks for the kind invitation. If I'm up that way I'd certainly try to drop in.
Now just to be clear, no where can you quote me saying that wires, amplifiers, etc can't or even don't sound different under certain circumstances. Please keep that in mind also.

cheers,

AJ

[*Scotty*]

As I see this hobby is suffers from a lack of object performance standards that closely correlate to what we subjectively experience when we listen to music via our systems. I doubt that we can even agree on a minimum set of performance standards for a stereo system. Because of this once you spend more than a certain minimum amount of money on your system your guarantee of further gains in performance in direct proportion to the amount of money you spend ceases to exist. This is a hard thing to understand because as a general rule in all other areas the more money you spend the better the product is in all respects both aesthetically and functionally. I am not saying,however that you can never  get better performance by spending more money, just that you stand an excellent chance only generating a bigger hole in your wallet.  Denial to this state of affairs is frequently the order of the day and I think this contributes to snobbishness on one side of the debate and reverse snobbishness or cheapskate mentality on the other. I think there is a certain minimum amount of expenditure necessary for good sound reproduction quality but I am unsure as to what that amount is. Not be made of money I tend to seek out those products which seem to perform out of all proportion to their cost.
As far as the subject v objective argument is concerned I am sure that I don't know everything about what affects what I hear from my stereo. I strongly doubt that there is nothing new to discover about our hobby and I am comfortable with this. Most people differ from one another in their ability to tolerate ambiguity or uncertainty in their life and this debate and the frequent acrimony that accompanies it are a reflection of this intolerance to uncertainty.
Scotty

[TONEPUB]

As someone who has access to gear at all levels of price on a daily, where I really see the price/performance
thing change is between the "botique" mfrs. that make 10 pieces a year vs. the mainstream guys like CJ, BAT,
ARC, McIntosh, etc.

I would equate it to buying a house by a custom builder vs. a devloper.  The developer is buying Kohler bathtubs
100 at a time and is getting the same tub that a custom builder has to pay 5000 dollars for for 1800 bucks.

You really do have to pay a lot more for something that is made in extremely small quantities and it does
not offer much more performance, if at all.  There are also some companies like Van Alstine that completely
forgo cosmetics and put all the money in the internals, which keeps the cost down tremendously.  Granted,
a Krell amp is going to have a bit more of the build cost allocated to casework and will sell for a higher dollar.

At that point you can decide if you want your amp in a fancy box or not.  The person who is willing to pay
more for asthetics can have it and the person who just wants performance can have their way as well.

There are two major business models emerging lately, the products supported by a dealer network and the
products that you can buy direct.  As with anything, if you have a good idea of what you want, you can get
more for your money buy going direct, but you won't always get the service.  (again, there are tons of variations
on this theme)

However, now having spent about four years really exposed to the best stuff as well as good and pretty good,
I would put the point of diminishing returns a lot higher than I used to think it was. I don't see it as being snooty,
just really a matter of seat time.

I think the good news is that as a result of all this megabuck gear, a lot of this technology has trickled downmarket
and the reasonably priced gear is better than it ever was, so I think everyone wins.

And also in the end, I still see having a great room and good setup skills as being your best use of time and
money, whether your system is worth a thousand dollars or 200 thousand dollars....

But I think we will debate about cables for a long time to come.  I always tell our readers to spend money
on that stuff absolutely LAST, if at all.

[Double Ugly]

Where are you located in FL, AJ?

What was the giveaway ?

No giveaway.  I'm just really good at guessing. 

Cool. If I travel, it's rarely to go hear other folks stereos, but thanks for the kind invitation. If I'm up that way I'd certainly try to drop in.
Now just to be clear, no where can you quote me saying that wires, amplifiers, etc can't or even don't sound different under certain circumstances. Please keep that in mind also.

Nor can you quote me expressing a contrary sentiment.  Given that I am aware of no one within hundreds of miles with whom to share and compare, I just thought it'd be a pleasant way to spend an afternoon/evening.

FWIW, my wife is a killer cook.  Perhaps some day this fall the aroma from one of her from-scratch, can't-refuse-a-second-slice apple pies will hitch a ride on a southeasterly flow and prove sufficient to entice you northward.   

Regards,

DU

[Steve Eddy]

Do us all a favor and just stop. Please give us all a break.

No one is forced to read anything in these forums they don't wish to read. So why not simply not read that which you don't wish to read instead of essentially telling others to shut up because they may not agree with you?

You will NEVER win this age old argument. Neither will those of us that do hear the differences. So lets all accept the fact that we see and hear things differently from each other and STOP trying to provoke arguments just to force our own personal point of view on someone else.

No one can force anything upon anyone else here, least of all one's personal point of view.

That and stop dragging other unrelated crap (frozen pictures) into your conversations. It's more than obvious all you are trying to do is provoke people.

Provoke people to do what? Think perhaps?

And why do you feel it's unrelated?

You have those who insist that cables make an actual audible difference simply because they "hear" a difference. Yet there are those who employ frozen photographs, clever clocks, jars of rocks, etc. who also "hear" a difference. So if "hearing" a difference gives legitimacy to the notion that cables make a real difference, why does the same not also give legitimacy to the notion that frozen photographs, jars of rocks, etc. make a real difference?

What exactly is the difference between those who "hear" differences with cables and those who "hear" differences with frozen photographs?

Mr Moderator....can we please lock (or better yet bin) this thread yet?

Wow. Just a moment ago you were complaining about others trying to force their personal point of view on others even though they can't, and now here you are imploring the moderators (who actually can force certain things on others here) to get rid of this thread.

I would be in favor of instituting a new rule that forbids arguments about cables and IC's.

No surprise there I guess.

Nearly each and every one always ends up getting trashed anyway. What is the point in allowing them?

Why exactly do they end up getting trashed?

se

[DaveC113]

I guess I just don't understand how cable prices can get up as high as they are. The wires aren't made of solid gold, and they're not covered in jewell-encrusted techflex (as far as I know)   I do believe that cables can make a significant difference, but I think unreasonable markups must be involved in the high end cable market.  

I strongly doubt that there is nothing new to discover about our hobby and I am comfortable with this.

This seems to be the mechanism by which dubious marketing claims get by without the claimants getting into trouble. Hopefully someone will decide its worth it to try to measure parameters that affect how we percieve music. This seems to be seriously lacking. I've read about the Mcintosh experiment, but their conclusions have little to no objective basis as far as I'm concerned.  

But I think we will debate about cables for a long time to come.  I always tell our readers to spend money
on that stuff absolutely LAST, if at all.

There is a basic level of competency needed in this area, how would you define this?

[Steve Eddy]

I guess I just don't understand how cable prices can get up as high as they are.

Simply because they can. It's called market pricing. There are people willing to pay those prices. Simple as that.

The wires aren't made of solid gold...

Actually there's at least one company using solid gold conductors. Can't think of their name off the top of my head though.

I do believe that cables can make a significant difference, but I think unreasonable markups must be involved in the high end cable market.

"Unreasonable" is in the mind of the consumer. Not everyone has the same threshold.

se

[Daygloworange]

Mr Moderator....can we please lock (or better yet bin) this thread yet?

I would be in favor of instituting a new rule that forbids arguments about cables and IC's. Nearly each and every one always ends up getting trashed anyway. What is the point in allowing them?

Despite the fact that it can be contentious at times, there are very positive contributions to threads like these that arise in the form of technical explanations, as well as the discussion of human experience, and human perception that are equally interesting.

With all due respect ScottF, one might feel that it seems like if the discussion leans too far away from your personal belief system, then you believe it merits being thrown in the IGWB. I call that censorship.

People are challenging each other, but not necessarily because they believe the other person is wrong. I enjoy being challenged( not attacked), because it forces me to think things through, before arriving at a personal conclusion.

Yeah , sometimes I'm just not in the mood for it, or sometimes I don't wanna see it going on amongst others, but that's a personal thing. If people keep posting, that's because they want to discuss it.

Carry on.  

Cheers

[Freo-1]

The engineering studies and evidence available points to differences in cables as a result of XLR (Capacitive,Reactive, and Inductive). Unlike circuit topology, vacuum tube manufactures, quality of parts used in components, etc. all the wild claims about cable/wire difference are just that, wild claims that do not hold water.

One is reminded of the story "The Emperor’s New Clothes" when reviewing all the hype and ballyhoo of cable manufactures. To some extent,   high end cables are a bit like Rolex watches, except at least with Rolex one gets something that can be a family heirloom.

Note to John R: No

[Daygloworange]

The engineering studies and evidence available points to differences in cables as a result of XLR (Capacitive,Reactive, and Inductive). Unlike circuit topology, vacuum tube manufactures, quality of parts used in components, etc. all the wild claims about cable/wire difference are just that, wild claims that do not hold water.

I'll ask this question of Freo-1, and all the people who are inclined to believe no difference exists.

If you were to hear the difference between 2 or more IC's, or SC's, or PC's,  what then?

Would you simply dismiss it?  Would you then try and retake the test and try and convince yourself that you were merely hearing things?

Or would you step back, and perhaps take the time to re-investigate the topic?

Just curious....

Cheers

[Freo-1]

Regarding your question, suggest this link for reading:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/archive/1640

So, there are many things that make audible differences in sound. There is no evidence out there that outside of XLR properties, wire is going to make all the differences claimed.

[TONEPUB]

Hey Double:

Even if we dont listen to music, if Im in Fla. can I stop by for
pie?  Now that sounds like a lot of fun to me!

[JohnR]

I would be in favor of instituting a new rule that forbids arguments about cables and IC's.

Seconded.

[arthurs]

...three things can happen when you share your opinion and all of them are good...

1 - you can be proven completely wrong, and cease espousing your incorrect beliefs, or continue with the full knowledge you are wrong

2 - your opinions and perspectives can be expanded upon and enhanced with more complete information..

3 - you can be proven absolutely right, and we all enjoy that don't we?

Carry on....

[Freo-1]

Good on ya, mate!

Unlike what Woody Hayes used to say about throwing the football, which was "Three things can happen, and two of them are bad!"

[Daygloworange]

Regarding your question, suggest this link for reading:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/archive/1640

So, there are many things that make audible differences in sound. There is no evidence out there that outside of XLR properties, wire is going to make all the differences claimed.

You didn't answer my question. All you appear to show is that you are convinced that no difference could possibly exist.

I asked what if you "heard" a difference, despite all your (accumulative) knowledge saying it shouldn't. What would you do if in a simple A/B test you were to clearly hear a difference?

Cheers

[AdamM]

Why does it seem that most of the heat regarding topics like this come from the  'I can hear a difference with my $$major cash outlay$$'  camp?     That's interesting.

Ban cable topics?   People serious?   Let's be strict about tone and attacks, of course, but censoring a central topic would be a little extreme and ridiculous no?  It's a slippery slope, censorship.  What's next?  CD VS record?   SS VS Tube?     What kind of reputation would AC get if it's the only forum where 'Cables' are next to 'Religion' on the verboten list?   

A while back i was involved with an audio shootout of various things, in a $1M room.  Yep that's right, $1M.   The room was especially designed with no right angles, hung from above by dampened cables, triple double pane non parallel glass windows, hand crafted maple diffusers on the back wall, etc.  Utter ridiculousness!

Anyways, interconnects were part of the show and know what IC tied for first place?   a DIY $28 one.  Honest to god.  What was it?!   2 extra long SCUSI cables from old printers, 68 pins of 28AWG OFC copper with foil then braided wire shielding.  Half wired hot, half cold, good RCA ends, shields wired to one end which was pointing forward in the current flow - source side, not amp side.



I'll be honest, i didn't hear much of a difference, but it wasn't my room.  Nobody heard much of a difference, and judging was hard.

The golden ears types which were there, were mostly surprised by the price/performance aspect.  There were cables present which i've never even heard of, running neck and neck with old printer cables!  Everyone got a kick out of that.

Hit up your used computer store, get some old SCUSI cables, make some bloody fine interconnects... you know, if you're a DIY type.

Only drawback is they're not as pretty as Steve's cables, which are very handsome indeed 

/A