[Freo-1]

This is more like a tale of alchemy. (Or perhaps, as the old saying goes, "A fool and his money are soon parted").

Roger Russel I think perhaps put it best:

"I credit the success of the speaker wire industry to their expert sales and marketing ability. However, it is my experience that ordinary copper wire, as long as it's heavy enough, is just as good as name brands.

Looking at this from a different perspective, there will always be those who will want expensive wire, not because there is an audible difference, but because they may value pride of ownership and prestige in a similar way to that of owning a Tiffany lamp or a Rolex watch."

In summary, there is bit of wisdom from Roger Russel as follows:

"When confronted with the truth, believers do not want to hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy where they think they can hear improvements in their wire, often arrived at by making listening tests without adequate controls or understanding of the problems involved. One of the prime tools in creating such a faith for the average consumer is by capitalizing on fear and ignorance as in many other things that aren’t readily apparent. There is fear that the wire currently in use is not good enough. There is ignorance because most people do not have scientific knowledge in this area and lack adequate measuring equipment to prove otherwise."

Like I said, alchemy.

[JohnR]

Freo-1, could you please answer my question...

[*Scotty*]

I have been following this discussion from the beginning and a number of valid points have been raised. I have personally observed very little correlation between the cost of a cable and the performance it exhibits. Expensive ones can sound bad and inexpensive cables can be extraordinary. What follows are my most recent experiences of the differences I have observed that two differently designed speaker cables make in sound of my system. . In my system my previous amplifier was  based on a Tripath eval board. This amp was "relatively" insensitive to changes in speaker cables. Differences between speaker cables were easily heard and a design with a lower strand count and and simpler geometry was slightly better than a cable with a more complex geometry but the character of the system was not dominated by the cable. With the demise of that amp it was replaced by a custom Gainclone amp with 60watts per channel that will double its output
into 4ohm loads. This amplifiers' character can be completely changed just by switching back and forth between the two speaker cable designs
that when used with the previous amp had a very similar presentation. Additionally,by changing the footers under the amp between a rollerball style
and the basic rubber feet the differences that existed between the sound of the two speaker cable designs can be minimized and made to sound similar to each other. This situation seems straight out of the Twilight Zone. Fortunately a combination of rollerball type feet and the simpler geometry cable yields a very satisfactory result that betters the Tripath based amp in many areas. The cables are 8ga. and 9ga. respectively with the longest run being 11ft.  It's a strange set of circumstances but I can live with the results.   
*Scotty*

[AdamM]

Here's another perspective.

This is the mastering room of Bob Katz: http://www.digido.com/about-us.html

He's mastered a lot of stuff and written some books: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct03/articles/bobkatz.htm

You could argue that this is one of the most critical review rooms going.  Certainly price no object.    Very careful planning in placement, room layout and treatment (Evan's RealTraps). Critical setup.

Shakti stones?  Bybee's? Gigabuck speaker cables?  Little metal goblet diffusers?  No.   Just good speakers, stands, amps and cables and proper room treatment.  No snake oil, no mojo.  Why not??





Cheers,
/A

[JohnR]

Nice looking cables. Can I buy a set?

[AdamM]

Nice looking cables. Can I buy a set?

Yes, but, there's a waiting list.  It's very time consuming to manufacture them. With the triple dipping cryogenic process, being hung in zero gravity for a day before then being baked in moonlight for an entire cycle then onto a 14 day soak in a widmanstatten metor tub of mineral oil while having DC to 100Khz sweeps before final air dry on aerogel pads.....so yeah...  they're super back-ordered.

We've got some, you know, GOOD cables, much cheaper and in stock.  I'm not sure anyone has been able to tell the difference 

/A

[Tweaker]

Nice looking cables. Can I buy a set?

Yes, but, there's a waiting list.  It's very time consuming to manufacture them. With the triple dipping cryogenic process, being hung in zero gravity for a day before then being baked in moonlight for an entire cycle then onto a 14 day soak in a widmanstatten metor tub of mineral oil while having DC to 100Khz sweeps before final air dry on aerogel pads.....so yeah...  they're super back-ordered.

We've got some, you know, GOOD cables, much cheaper and in stock.  I'm not sure anyone has been able to tell the difference 

/A

...and on, and on, and on, and on, the hilarity continues

[2bigears]

the white side is old coat hangers right???? please put me down for a set. 

[JohnR]

...and on, and on, and on, and on, the hilarity continues

Well, at least it's better than shouting at each other

But, I do think it's nice that Bob Katz created those cables as a "labor of love." Not economical to pay someone else to do it, but worth the time and effort to do it oneself, somehow.

[AdamM]

But, I do think it's nice that Bob Katz created those cables as a "labor of love." Not economical to pay someone else to do it, but worth the time and effort to do it oneself, somehow.

It is interesting.   Look at them, what do you think?  Looks like 30AWG OFC copper with teflon dielectrics.  4-5 strands per twisted group, with 4-5 groups per line.  Standard decent high-ish end anti-magnetic RCA's.  Shrinkwrap. The kind of cables you could easily build in an afternoon, for $250 ??.

We could read into Bob building his own cables - for mojotic reasons - but i suspect a more pragmatic motivation is at play.

Sure, he probably can afford whatever $$$ cables, but why?  That's for audiophools.   Why throw the money away?   Maybe he too feels the satisfaction of a DIY solution which is 1/whatever'th the price with fantastic performance.  If you read his site, you can see he also makes hardware.  Why don't we ask him?  I'll kick him an email.

i know my DIY interconnects and cables fall in that category, and the whole rig: speaker wires, interconnects, RCA ends, was only a few hundred bucks.  I'm probably not as rich as Bob, so that extra money is nice for more records (yes records) and DVD's (another addiction) and old guitars and amps (yet another addiction! )

Cheers,
/Adam

[JohnR]

I wouldn't really consider an easy afternoon's work a "labor of love." Whatever...

[AdamM]

I wouldn't really consider an easy afternoon's work a "labor of love." Whatever...

So what's your point?

[TONEPUB]

I really don't understand why these discussions always deteriorate
into a "people that have expensive gear are fools..." kind of thing.

If it's something you can't afford, or choose not to spend your money
on, that's no problem, it's just a choice.  I have a freind with a 15
thousand dollar bicycle and while I think that's a little bit insane, he's
totally into it and as a retired pro, he supposedly can really utilize it.

It would be the same as turning your nose up at someone with a
better car, house, whatever.

Granted, I do think that the top of the heap cables ARE over priced
and I wish they were more affordable.

There are a lot of people in this world that have more money than
time and that doesn't make them fools.  I always kind of thought
that they were on to something to be able to make that kind of
money in the first place.

The good news is that there is still plenty of great cables in the
100-500 dollar range that all of us can afford.

I don't really see the jewelry analogy, as all my cables are
behind the racks anyway!  Jewelry is meant to be seen and shown
off!

[doug s.]

...
Granted, I do think that the top of the heap cables ARE over priced
and I wish they were more affordable....

not all top of the heap cables are over-priced - only the over-priced ones.   

doug s.

[AJinFLA]

I really don't understand why these discussions always deteriorate
into a "people that have expensive gear are fools..." kind of thing.
If it's something you can't afford, or choose not to spend your money
on, that's no problem, it's just a choice. 

Wow. Never see that angle in these type debates before. Don't be envious if you can't afford it

I have a freind with a 15 thousand dollar bicycle and while I think that's a little bit insane, he's
totally into it and as a retired pro, he supposedly can really utilize it.

The $15k bicycle will be "objectively" superior to a $150 bicycle. It will (unless it's some kind of Audiophile model) weigh less. Stop quicker. Shift gears quicker, etc,etc,etc.
This can be backed up with objective data to match subjective responses of it being quicker, easier to ride, brake better, etc, etc.
The same rider (barring mechanical failure,etc) would complete a slalom course or a long distance ride faster. Etc.
Can you tell me how $15k wire is superior to $150 wire? Because some wealthy person "said so"? "Heard it"? Wrote about it on a audiophile web site or magazine?

It would be the same as turning your nose up at someone with a
better car, house, whatever.

Same 'ol tired jealousy argument. A complete diversion from the subject.

Granted, I do think that the top of the heap cables ARE over priced
and I wish they were more affordable.

Top how?

There are a lot of people in this world that have more money than
time and that doesn't make them fools.  I always kind of thought
that they were on to something to be able to make that kind of
money in the first place.

You mean like the folks who give millions to televangelists and Ms Cleo?

The good news is that there is still plenty of great cables in the
100-500 dollar range that all of us can afford.

Great how?

I don't really see the jewelry analogy, as all my cables are
behind the racks anyway!  Jewelry is meant to be seen and shown
off!

I thought the whole point of hi-end audio was to show off/brag about superior systems of those with superior (through self-analysis of course) hearing? So that those less fortunate can be filled with envy ?

cheers

AJ

[Carlman]

I really don't understand why these discussions always deteriorate
into a "people that have expensive gear are fools..." kind of thing.
If it's something you can't afford, or choose not to spend your money
on, that's no problem, it's just a choice. 

Wow. Never see that angle in these type debates before. Don't be envious if you can't afford it

I have a freind with a 15 thousand dollar bicycle and while I think that's a little bit insane, he's
totally into it and as a retired pro, he supposedly can really utilize it.

The $15k bicycle will be "objectively" superior to a $150 bicycle. It will (unless it's some kind of Audiophile model) weigh less. Stop quicker. Shift gears quicker, etc,etc,etc.
This can be backed up with objective data to match subjective responses of it being quicker, easier to ride, brake better, etc, etc.
The same rider (barring mechanical failure,etc) would complete a slalom course or a long distance ride faster. Etc.
Can you tell me how $15k wire is superior to $150 wire? Because some wealthy person "said so"? "Heard it"? Wrote about it on a audiophile web site or magazine?

It would be the same as turning your nose up at someone with a
better car, house, whatever.

Same 'ol tired jealousy argument. A complete diversion from the subject.

.............. and so on...............

cheers

AJ

To complete the analogy of the bicycle... If a person isn't capable of objectively or subjectively hearing improvement afforded by better cable, they probably shouldn't buy it.  I ride bikes and probably wouldn't appreciate the 15,k bike... especially since it is likely very customized to its creator/designer/user.  Just like cables... it's designed to my preferences. 

I don't think it's jealousy so much as close-minded-ness.  I've noticed a lot of people who don't have the vision to see beyond their own world aren't capable of accepting what others do... and want to 'save' or 'control' others even though they don't have a clue what it's like to be in their shoes.  I could be wrong but I'm open to to discuss it.

-C

[TONEPUB]

I'll go with that analysis.  I rode the 15k bike and while I could tell it was
better, I don't have enough seat time to really describe all the nuances.

Also, because I don't spend as much time riding (and I've never ridden
competitively) that extra money doesn't make sense for me.

With the hifi thing, because I spend 8-14 hours a day listening to a lot
of pretty good gear on a regular basis, it's gotten a lot easier to hear
the nuances than it was five years ago when I listened a couple hours
a day.

While it's hard to stay objective sometimes, we try our best....

No matter what the analysis, we will always get disagreements!

[AJinFLA]

To complete the analogy of the bicycle... If a person isn't capable of objectively or subjectively hearing improvement afforded by better cable, they probably shouldn't buy it.

What makes one capable? As determined by???

I ride bikes and probably wouldn't appreciate the 15,k bike... especially since it is likely very customized to its creator/designer/user.  Just like cables... it's designed to my preferences.

By complete chance? Or were you in on the design process of your cables? If so, can you tell me how that process went? When you asked for greater clarity, or better depth, what electrical parameters of the cable were adjusted?
Thanks.

I don't think it's jealousy so much as close-minded-ness.  I've noticed a lot of people who don't have the vision to see beyond their own world aren't capable of accepting what others do

I see. So, it's not jealousy, but closed mindedness regarding acceptance of photos in freezers? Tell me, do you put photos of yourself in the fridge? Or are you too closed minded to do so? Because you don't have the vision to see beyond your own world?

... and want to 'save' or 'control' others even though they don't have a clue what it's like to be in their shoes.  I could be wrong but I'm open to to discuss it

No sure what anything has to do with save or control. Seems like more hand waving to me.

cheers,

AJ

[Scott F.]

Since nobody else is going to step in here, I guess I will.

AJ and others,

Do us all a favor and just stop. Please give us all a break. You will NEVER win this age old argument. Neither will those of us that do hear the differences. So lets all accept the fact that we see and hear things differently from each other and STOP trying to provoke arguments just to force our own personal point of view on someone else. Both sides are well aware of the standard retorts in this nonsense. No further discussion is necessary.

That and stop dragging other unrelated crap (frozen pictures) into your conversations. It's more than obvious all you are trying to do is provoke people. Do us a favor and take that shit back to AA.



Mr Moderator....can we please lock (or better yet bin) this thread yet?

I would be in favor of instituting a new rule that forbids arguments about cables and IC's. Nearly each and every one always ends up getting trashed anyway. What is the point in allowing them?

[Double Ugly]

Where are you located in FL, AJ?  I live in the middle of nowhere in MS, but if you don't mind driving up to Columbus, you're welcome to come by and compare your cables with some of mine if you like.

Some of my cables are relatively inexpensive, too, but some are what you might call extravagant.

You seem to be a friend of John's, and IMO that's sufficient qualification to offer the invite.  Just lemme know, but be advised that I have no measurement gear aside from my ears.  I've found them to be sufficient thus far, but if there's a better way, I'm open to suggestions.

-DU