[Daygloworange]

Wow, where have you been? 

Apparently somewhere where I learned how to correctly engage in dialogue, not just cast stones.

I elaborated very succinctly on why that's not possible. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 There are no microphones capable of that, nor speakers. Period. The only way to do what you describe would be a multi-channel system, and a recording/playback system that is configured for vertical separation. Akin to L/R separation, but of course inverted 90 deg. as Top/Bottom. None exists. There is no "pan" button on a mixer to place a signal high or low. No microphone that has a top or bottom. You can pan a sound anywhere in between 2 speakers left to right, and can add or subtract ambience for proximity, but you can NOT go up or down.

I'd like to hear your elaboration on how I missed out on that.

Cheers

[JLM]

T-37,

For the small ensemble stuff you're listening to (me too), single driver speakers are just about ideal.

No, they don't play super loud, super deep bass, or offer wide high frequency dispersion.  But the coherency, inherent active status, and imaging advantages of single driver designs should play very well into what you listen to.

Most single driver designs are highly efficient.  There is historic reasons for this.  Decades ago the only available amps were low powered tubes.  Crossovers convert lots of power into waste heat, so designers stayed with high efficiency extended range drivers.  With your 160 wpc AVA amp, the high efficiency could easily lead to more problems (no usable range in your volume control and exagerating any system noise from grounding issues, etc.) than advantages (increased dynamic response).

Do you know how loud (sound pressure levels) you typically listen?  Are you a basshead or know how deep you like to go?  The spl/deep bass questions can be answered with use of a $40 Radio Shack spl meter and some test tones (I have Stereohile test CDs 1, 2, and 3).  You'll find out very quickly how loud loud really is and how deep you like to go.  (Most folks are suprised by how low of spls and how high of bass frequencies they are satisfied with.) 

How big  is your room? This will help gauge what size and type of speakers might work best.  You'll have plenty of power for the musical genre you're doing.  A large room could accommodate dipoles (open baffles, planar, bipole), but IMO nothing beats transmission line bass.  Kinda hate to say it, but my FTA-2000s sound ideal if your room is big enough and they fit in your budget.  I run mine with 40 wpc in a 13 ft x 21 ft x 8 ft room and it plenty loud enough for me.  I only know of a few pair that exist.  I'm in Michigan, one pair is in California, one in Georgia, and I'm not sure where the rest are located.  You can do a search here at AudioCircle for more information or just PM me. 

[Danny Richie]

Not to question your hearing or knowledge, but please explain how a line array can image vertically.

Explain how a point source can image vertically.

I've never heard it from a line array and can't imagine how it possibly could.

Come on by. Hearing is believing.

With multiple drivers its easy to understand how the drivers aren't being stressed into distortion and how the speaker could handle lots of power, but in my experience most audiophiles do serious listening at 80 dB or less so neither of these benefits have a great deal of real world value.

I can see how one would think that, but a simple side by side comparison can show the difference can be quite substantial even at moderate volumes.

I can't find a reference/link to the LS-6 or LS-9 from your site, but those are very expensive kits especially if it doesn't at least include pre-cut panels.

They are both new designs. The LS-9 was just completed last week. I'll try to get them up as soon as I can but web page work usually takes a back seat to my design work, especially when other companies are eagerly waiting on the design work.

Here are some pics and general info:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41021.0

LS-6 listening feedback here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=34506.0 and here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=34820.0

LS-9's: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=43531.0

LS-9's completed: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=43853.0

I doubt $30 - 50 drivers (that I can find on your site) are what I'd call high quality (my standard, not a slam, not to imply they aren't great for the money)

I do design work for a lot of companies and have upgraded 100's of speakers. I work with and have worked with the "best" drivers made. I even have been working with some of the latest Beryllium drivers not even available to the public. The drivers that I offer are right up there with the best of them, don't let the price fool you. Feel free to compare our designs to any thing at any price.

I believe Dayglow has had some experience with our drivers and several of my designs. Maybe he can give you some feedback or you can hear them if you drive up for that visit.

[JLM]

Dayglow,

Sorry to ruffle feathers, but I've been hearing solid vertical imaging for decades from stereo.  Maybe its the mind filling in what it knows to be there, but I really don't think I'm alone here.

I know the theory you quote, but I also know that with two ears (that most of the time I'm awake are roughly in a horizontal plane) I can discern vertically.  Audio is all about providing clues to recreate the original performance.  High end audio tries to provide more clues.  Like I said a view pages up, no system can fool a listener into believing its life, all fall short of true-fidelity.

Man, I honestly sincerely do feel for you if you haven't experienced this as an audiophile.

[JLM]

Danny,

Like I just posted to Dayglow, I've been hearing vertical imaging with point source miking, point source speakers, and point source ears for decades.  But never with line arrays.  Your response is a question, not an answer.

Thanks for the invite.  But I'm 17 hours and 1100 miles away.

I guess I'm more comfortable with your smaller more conventional designs, they seem more befitting to $40 drivers.

[Danny Richie]

I've been hearing vertical imaging with point source miking, point source speakers, and point source ears for decades.

I agree.

Your response is a question, not an answer.

Yes it was. Here is another one. What is it that would make you think the play back of this material would be different? The line sources will produce it just as well and then some.

Don't ask me how it is recorded or how the effect was caught or mixed. I do not know.

Clearly though I can play one piece of music and the singer is near ear level is if seated in front of me and on the next piece of music the singer appears to be standing in front of me with the vocal coming from head high level if standing.

A good example is on the Vienna Teng album "Waking Hour". If you don't have it, get it. it is really good. Track 12 has a segment at the end where the lead vocalist is joined by others. The lead vocal is head high as if standing. One vocal joins to the left and high as well, but just to the left of center. Another vocal joins to the right, but far right and down low in the sound stage. In fact it is considerably lower.

I guess I'm more comfortable with your smaller more conventional designs, they seem more befitting to $40 drivers.

Take any $100 to $110 driver out there from any of your favorite big name brands that are sold by your favorite dealer. Strip out the dealers profit, the North American importer, the duty and import fees, fancy packaging, and some advertising budget and you are still left with a $40 driver. And that $40 will still include profit made by the manufacturer.

[T37]

JLM

I listen to pretty much everything, But more often it will be either jazz or blues.I am developing a small classical collectioon( very small but growing). I do not have the spl meter that you mention so i have no idea  of what level would please me. I don't crank it all the way but yes when the neighbors are gone yes for a bit.Regular listening,rarely goes passed the ten o'clock position with my volume control starting at the 7 o'colck position.

Room size is 18'x30' ceiling ? 8' I have a dining room that opens up right off of the living room/ listening room. hope this helps.

[Daygloworange]

Dayglow,

Sorry to ruffle feathers, but I've been hearing solid vertical imaging for decades from stereo.  Maybe its the mind filling in what it knows to be there, but I really don't think I'm alone here.

I know the theory you quote, but I also know that with two ears (that most of the time I'm awake are roughly in a horizontal plane) I can discern vertically.  Audio is all about providing clues to recreate the original performance.  High end audio tries to provide more clues.  Like I said a view pages up, no system can fool a listener into believing its life, all fall short of true-fidelity.

Man, I honestly sincerely do feel for you if you haven't experienced this as an audiophile.

JLM, I can go tit for tat on the condescention, but let's drop it shall we?

What you are in fact hearing is indeed a psychoacoustic perception of vertical height, but not in it's origin.

What I mean by that is simply this. A (dynamic) microphone and a speaker driver are the reverse of each other. Microphones capture sound at the diaphram surface and convert the waves of the diaphram into simple + and  - electrical current. A speaker converts the current into sound pressure waves at it's cone. In a linear fashion.

Where a sound (in height) originates from makes no difference to the microphone. It picks up sounds in it's hemispherical field (it's polar pattern) evenly over the surface of the diaphram.

A speaker driver operates in the exact reverse. It's entire cone surface radiates. It casts sound in an even hemispherical dispersion pattern as well. It doesn't know up from down either.

I understand the (pseudo) psychoacoustic effect you are talking about, but it is your mind at work, not what the speaker is doing or not doing. It is not capable of true vertical imaging, for the reasons I described earlier.

All this is pure fact. It's simple physics. No fancy white papers. None needed. Google all you want, and you won't find anything to contradict what I'm explaining. It just doesn't exist.

There are a few reasons why something may appear to have a (very,very slight height differential), but it's due to the early reflections of ambience embedded in the recording, but it's still in a horizontal plane, not a vertical one to any degree.

I just got off the phone with Danny, we chatted about the perceived effect. He has a copy of some test drum tracks I recorded last year. They were done in a 2000 square foot building with 17' ceilings. Ambiently recorded with a pair of large diaphram condensor mics, in a spaced pair configuration. There are cuts of tracks where the pair are 2 feet off the ground, 4 feet off the ground, and 11 feet off the ground, and with varying proximity to the actual drum kit. The diaphrams were always level and pointed forward. No compression, no Eq. Straight from mic's to preamps, to recorder.

He will NOT hear height differences in the recordings. They will however, sound absolutely bombastic through the LS-9's, as these mic's will pick up very, very low frequencies, and these recordings have full dynamic range.

I'll let him chime in on that.

If you were to set up a pair of mic's in a stereo configuration aimed forward, and were to record a sound that came from up high, or directly up above, you would NOT look up high, or up above while listening to the playback on speakers. It would appear to come from a forward origin.

 Just as you would not think a sound originated from behind you while listening to you speakers, the same applies to height.

It's just not possible.

To drive my point even further, flip your speakers upside down while keeping the same tweeter height. Is everything going the other way now? Didn't think so.

Cheers

[awe-d-o-file]

Well, I have vertical imaging. Not on every tune and not very often quite frankly. Much more subtle than horizontal imaging which is easy in stereo. It's easier to detect than front back as well.When I notice it in various recordings it's always things recorded by a mic not direct. When you have these modern mics and their pick up patterns you can do strange things. I also want to say now that I have high ceilings it is much easier to hear than on my old 8ft ceiling house. Examples of tunes:

Ray Speigal "Sum & Kali" track #4 - the tablas in the right channel- very low to the floor.

Zap Mama "A Ma Zone"  track #8 - Background vocals throughout the track. Higher up and way farther back
                                                also on this track there is a big bassline in mono but a plucked acoustic
                                                bass which is up high located center right.


There are a couple of examples. Sorry for the obscure music but I have no real mainstream music. I also could not detect these height differences until I filtered and regenerated my AC and upgraded its outlets and connectors.

                                                            ET   

[BrianM]

I think DGO appears to win the argument on the facts, but dissenters are giving specific instances on specific tracks where they hear the vertical thing.

I wonder is it possible that instruments/voices that are further back (further upstage) from the microphone might somehow sometimes give the illusion of sounding higher vertically, if maybe only slightly, for any particular psychological or physical reason? I've fancied hearing this phenomenon myself from time to time, usually from just such voices, but never really analyzed it. Time to go replay some things...although I can certainly recall a recording of Wagner's Die Meistersinger I took part in where the antiphonal trumpets (above and behind the orchestra, playing from both auditorium side balconies) don't actually sound that way on the recording. Just more distant and echo-y because they're reverberating differently from the stage musicians.

Anyway if it were actually physically possible, I would think it would be a much more commonly heard phenomenon from recording to recording, given the number of records which were no doubt recorded with players at different heights (many orchestras, and I guess all large jazz ensembles, use platforms or risers for the rear players, and of course if there is a choir they are almost invariably standing 5-10 feet above and behind the orchestra).  I don't think I ever hear the height difference for choral/orchestral anyway.

[Danny Richie]

I just got off the phone with Danny, we chatted about the perceived effect.

Yep, fun chat. He is right from the recording aspect of it. And I can flip my speakers upside down and it has no effect on the perceived sound stage height nor would I expect it to. Images that are high will still be high and images that are low are still low. It is all about time arrival between the two speakers.

How two speakers can throw an image around the room is sometimes hard to understand. This is especially true with Q sound recordings like the Amused to Death CD from Roger Waters. It will pin point a sound as to be coming directly from a point in space way off to one side and even from the ceiling on one side.

Speaking of Roger Waters CD, the LS-9's can through those effects out there as well if not better than anything. It's scary.

Dayglow's drum tracks are really impressive. He is right. Regardless of the height of the ambience mic, the height of the imaging is still the same. The ambience changes a little though.

I can really tell there is no compression or filtering in the recording. Drums REALLY sound real. Low bass passes right on through too. My amps will pass a signal that is flat way down into the single digit range without rolling it off. The LS-9's are capable of playing a lot of that really low stuff too. So those woofers were really pumping. At the levels I was playing back his drum tracks it might have spit the woofers of some speakers out on the floor. If you guys ever get a copy of something recorded like this, you'll need to really be careful with the play back levels.

[Tweaker]

I have one CD of "space music" by Micheal Stearns called Encounters and there is one track where a synthesizer fades in and I swear that it starts from both corners of the ceiling behind the speakers and slowly drops down to the floor. A psychoacoustic trick, I'm sure but very amazing. Also a track from Enya's A Day Without Rain called Fallen Embers has some reverb/ambiance thing going on with her voice that appears to come from the walls about 6' up and about 2/3rd's of the way between the speakers and my couch. Reminds me of the effect I would get on some recordings when I used to use a Carver C9 Sonic Holography Generator.
This thread has gotten a little off track, hasn't it?

[Danny Richie]

Reminds me of the effect I would get on some recordings when I used to use a Carver C9 Sonic Holography Generator.

That's funny. I was thinking of that earlier in this thread. An old Yamaha receiver that I had when I was a kid had something like that too.

[JLM]

Dayglow,

I've heard all the arguments before and do understand what you're saying.  I hear it and I'm sorry that you don't.  I'm going to cut this off now.  I don't mean any ill towards you and I apoligize if I've offended you.


Danny,

How can line arrays image vertically when the same sound is emanating floor to ceiling?  I'd think that would add confusion to the ear/mind from trying to reconstruct the original event.  A theory I've heard is that the point source speaker "reflects" the point source microphone, similar to how recordings made for headphones work (by placing the microphones in the ears of a mannequin.

Some time recently we discussed here at AC the pricing structure for typical retail loudspeakers.  I believe it roughly goes like this:  40% for the bricks and mortar/advertizing; 20% for distribution/transportation; 15% for cabinets; 10% for R&D; and 15% for drivers.  So fully assembled, I'd guess they could retail for many times what you sell the kits/raw drivers for.  Assuming Madisound wants to make a profit, the fully assembled Thor speakers that T37 is looking at would retail for roughly $6000 and your LS-6/LS-9 would go for about $12,000. 

What drives me nuts is that cars follow pretty much the same formulas (and that I need cars).  So a $30,000 car "should/could" only cost $12,000 if I could just pick it up at the factory.   

[Daygloworange]

I wonder is it possible that instruments/voices that are further back (further upstage) from the microphone might somehow sometimes give the illusion of sounding higher vertically, if maybe only slightly, for any particular psychological or physical reason? I've fancied hearing this phenomenon myself from time to time, usually from just such voices, but never really analyzed it.

The changes in what you might perceive as height are very much reliant on proximity to the microphone, and time arrival issues between the two channels. Comb filtering effects due to different time arrivals as sounds are picked up further away, and the ratio of direct to indirect reflections changes the frequency response of sounds. The same sounds picked up a few inches further in proximity(when juxtaposed) will have a different sound in a full bandwidth spectrum. There will be peaks and bumps in the response, and nulls. The attack of the same sound will be different, and the tail (the decay of the sound) will be different. Room gain is another important consideration. Sounds further away in proximity are colored with the effects of room reflections.

It's all very interesting stuff.

Q sound is a freaky thing. I used to know the exact explanation of what the effect was comprised of, but my memory of it is weak. I believe it is based on phase manipulation, and also uses distortion to some degree IIRC.

This thread has gotten a little off track, hasn't it?

Bahhh, it's Audio Central. There's so much good info on this thread as to the differences between speakers, that it'll help anybody who's looking for their next speaker. Knowledge is power.

Better than just everyone throwing the makes and models of speakers at the original poster, as if that was any help. We all have different tastes, so it's pretty meaningless.

Best thing to do. Go to RMAF. Hear for yourself. Do head to head comparisons there. Save yourself a lot of gear turnover.

Dayglow,

I've heard all the arguments before and do understand what you're saying.  I hear it and I'm sorry that you don't.  I'm going to cut this off now.  I don't mean any ill towards you and I apoligize if I've offended you.

JLM, I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining. In any event, we're cool.

How can line arrays image vertically when the same sound is emanating floor to ceiling?  I'd think that would add confusion to the ear/mind from trying to reconstruct the original event.  A theory I've heard is that the point source speaker "reflects" the point source microphone, similar to how recordings made for headphones work (by placing the microphones in the ears of a mannequin.

I've never heard the term "point source" for a microphone before. I don't believe it exists. Microphones pick up sounds in a broad pattern. There are "shotgun" types that are very narrow pattern, but are not widely used for music. The technique you describe with the mannequin head is called "binaural". The theory is that the space between the ears must be duplicated with the spacing of the capsules (diaphrams) in the mic's to best simulate reality. Very little used in the real world of recording.

Cheers



 

[Danny Richie]

How can line arrays image vertically when the same sound is emanating floor to ceiling?

You are always closer to one point in the array. Typically this is near the center of the array. As you move up and down the sounds stays the same just as it would if you were on axis with a point source.

However, move up and down while listening to a typical two way or three way design and the driver offset changes with that variation of distance and the response can change. Some speakers change to a large degree (like the Zu speakers mentioned here) and some change very little.

Point source designs will also have more ceiling and floor interaction in the higher frequency ranges (comparatively), while a line source will have less ceiling and floor interaction as frequency increases.

So with the line source its image is more stable over a wider range vertical range. This could have something to do with the greater or more easily discerned differential of image height.

I'd think that would add confusion to the ear/mind from trying to reconstruct the original event.

  Actually nothing that I have heard more accurately reproduces a playback closer to that of a live performance any better than a good line source.

Some time recently we discussed here at AC the pricing structure for typical retail loudspeakers.

Most dealers look for 40 to 50 points on speakers depending on its price range. 50 points means they paid half of the retail price for it. Most manufacturers are looking to make back twice what they have in them as well. So cut it in half again. Then typically half of the production cost can be for the enclosures. What's left will cover all other cost of materials. Unless a company is really proud of their work (and some are) then you can figure pretty easily the cost to produce.

Some companies use the rule of 5. They take raw production cost and multiple it times 5 to get a retail figure.

I think margins on new cars are not as lucrative. Car dealers don't make that much margin.

[JLM]

T37,

I'm kinda amazed that you're still with us.     But like Dayglow said, this is AudioCircle.

I suppose most folks listen to a variety of stuff, but have favorite musical tastes that they gravitate towards.  It just helps to get a feel of what your primary interests are.

Your space is on the large side for residental, good for you.  All else being equal, bigger is better (maybe you'd heard that one before).   

So, you'll want speakers capable of "room filling bass", no 5 inch mid/woofer (without help for the "heavy lifting").  So I'd be harder pressed to support the Salk SongTowers (which I didn't vote for to start with). 

Next question, (factoring in domestic acceptance) can you estimate where the speaker and primary listening position will be in that 18 ft x 30 ft room?  Can the speakers be located 3 - 5 feet away from walls (that works best for most speakers).  How far away will you be sitting for serious listening?  This will help narrow down the ideal range for speaker efficiency and type(s) of speakers can could work best.

[miklorsmith]

It's funny to me that the SongTower is laying waste to the competition though the chances are about nil that any of the voters have heard them.  No offense, I'm sure they're nice speakers.

[T37]

I currently have my speakers about three feet away from the walls (rear) and about two 1/2 from the side walls.Sitting about 8' away.

Putting them another 2-3 feet further into the living room would put me very close to my couch.

[JLM]

miklorsmith,

As you know, we're a very supportive bunch when it comes to "one of our own".


T37,

Assuming there is no nearby obstructing furnishings, that's a pretty good layout.  Your 8 feet from speakers are about half way between my casual listening spot (at the computer) and "the" listening chair (66 inches, a nearfield arrangement).  Driver integration and getting the tweeter height to match your ear in your intense listening position will a factor (in order to get the best possible imaging and not hear the sound jumping from mid/woofer to tweeter as frequencies approach crossover point).  "Room filling" bass won't be quite the issue it could of have been from really farfield listening, but its still an important consideration. 

As far as power goes, you should have plenty for most speakers.  Speakers with efficiencies of 85 dB/w/m have poor dynamics anyway and should be avoided.

The bottom note on a piano is 24 Hz.  Pipe organ can go down to 16 Hz and of course HT special effects go lower yet.  But going too low takes lots of power and can cause objects in the room to resonant, so there is a practical limit, especially in shared spaces.  Apartment dwellers can easily get in trouble with that much bass.  Typical two-way standmounted speakers exhibit F3 response down to roughly 60 Hz.  Hopefully you can see how much power and money, let alone potential trouble thats involved with deep bass.  IMO an F3 of 30 Hz, based on in-room measurements is a reasonable goal.  Keep in mind that I'm a firm believer that good bass response is fundamental.  This is a very personal thing. 

Living near NY, you are in a prime location to audition lots of equipment, attend vendor shows, and attend local audiophile gatherings.  Again I'd play with a spl meter and test tones to learn how loud, how low, and how high you hear/listen.  And I'd attend live musical performances of the sorts of music you listen to most, especially unamplified varieties.  Colleges often have free public concerts.  Once you're familar with "the real thing" you'll be ready for some serious auditioning.  I'd start with quicky stops at audio shops and avoid listening to more than 3 or 4 speakers per day as the brain will get confused and aural memory is fleeting.  Eventually the best test is to bring home the finalists for a personal shootout under your actual room/equipment conditions.