[Aether Audio]

OK Folks,

Today is the 28th.  The sale ends midnight July 31st.  If you want 'em, send me an e-mail before Tuesday, the 31st.  After that, the price goes to $747.50 each - no exceptions.  See the link below for info.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=43286.0

As as side note, to be honest...I'm a little disappointed.  We've only had one person here from AudioCircle purchase a pair.  The rest of the sales have come from Audiogon.  For the longest time I've heard, "the Timepieces are too big" or "$3K is more than I can really afford."  Then before that we've heard, "well, I'll bet they sound great but I don't really care for the black finish."

Well, at $1,349.00 per pair I think we have provided an affordable alternative.  At only 16.5"H x9.5"W x 12.75"D, I can't imagine that being too big for anybody's room.  And now...with the hardwood finishes everybody's commenting on how nice they look so...theoretically that's not the problem.  So what gives?

I realize its summer and it's not the "audio buying season," but with as many as come to AC and to our circle, I'd have thought we'd get more than one order.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry or anything...but if this is any kind of indicator...I'm really beginning to question the value of our efforts here.  More than one person has run me through the "20 questions" mill via PMs and e-mails about both the Minis and the other products - as though they were really serious about purchasing - only to never be heard from again.

Folks...all I ask for is a little respect.  If you're truly serious, then ask away - preferably in a public posting so I don't have to repeat myself ad-infinitum.  Otherwise, if you're just cruising to get some info, please refer to our website or the other postings here on AC.  If you haven't noticed, such questions play on my own natural weakness...I LIKE to answer questions and talk all things audio - just like a lot of you guys.  Problem is...it keeps me from getting other things done.  I know that's nobody's fault but my own, so I'm asking this sort of as a favor more than anything.  I could just "stick with business" and make any replies as short as possible. But... that's not who I am and it doesn't really reflect my sincere desire to help.

So...please remember that I have a business to run that feeds my family as well as other families and a responsibility to paying customers.  Every minute I spend needlessly answering questions from those that have no real intention of making a purchase is reducing my ability to fulfill my other obligations.  Just consider this:  Where else can you go and get the individualized attention that you get from the manufacturers represented here at AC?  Please don't take advantage of it.  Doing so tends to ruin it for all.

Being a conscientious person means considering what effects our wants and desires have on others.  All I'm asking is that you consider everybody's needs (including the other AC members) when you privately ask me specific questions about our products in the future.  More than likely, if you're willing to do the research, all of your questions will be answered on our website or here in existing postings on AudioCircle.  Wasting my time just to individually satisfy your passing curiosity serves no one but you.  That's not fair to the rest of us.

To be fair to those that have asked me questions privately and are still seriously pondering a purchase...none of the above applies to you.  If time is what you need - for whatever reasons, then by all means take your time.  It was never our intention to "pressure" anyone into purchasing.  If, in the end you decide against us, that's fine too - as long as you WERE serious.  The above was only intended for certain individuals... and only they know who they are.

Finally, just for your information, I have a little "insider" information I think you all should know.  Seeing that I'm a manufacturer, I hear from other manufacturers that have had experiences here on AC.  They will confide in me about things that they would never state publicly.  So far...the general consensus that I have gleaned from several of them is that they feel AudioCircle is "pretty much" of a waste of their time.  This is for the same reasons I've mentioned above, and others I won't go into. 

So...AC has a bit of a reputation as not being very "profitable" from the manufacturer's perspective.  A lot of time and effort put in and very little out.  I see it somewhat differently as I have experienced otherwise.  I think that it is a good starting point, especially for "budding" audiophiles and that once exposed, eventually do become customers.  But...I do understand their point.  I, for one, do believe in AC - and I believe that for the welfare of all AC members and for the continued growth of AC, it would behoove everyone involved to do their part in "dispelling" this perception.  IMHO, doing so should help to invite further manufacturer participation.  I can't see how that could be anything other than "a good thing."

Thanks,
-Bob

[smargo]

OK Folks,
Finally, just for your information, I have a little "insider" information I think you all should know.  Seeing that I'm a manufacturer, I hear from other manufacturers that have had experiences here on AC.  They will confide in me about things that they would never state publicly.  So far...the general consensus that I have gleaned from several of them is that they feel AudioCircle is "pretty much" of a waste of their time.  This is for the same reasons I've mentioned above, and others I won't go into. 

So...AC has a bit of a reputation as not being very "profitable" from the manufacturer's perspective.  A lot of time and effort put in and very little out.  I see it somewhat differently as I have experienced otherwise.  I think that it is a good starting point, especially for "budding" audiophiles and that once exposed, eventually do become customers.  But...I do understand their point.  I, for one, do believe in AC - and I believe that for the welfare of all AC members and for the continued growth of AC, it would behoove everyone involved to do their part in "dispelling" this perception.  IMHO, doing so should help to invite further manufacturer participation.  I can't see how that could be anything other than "a good thing."

Thanks,
-Bob

That's the most ridiculous rhetoric i have heard - please feel free to move on and not post here anymore - Why would you even say that - to teach everybody a lesson - its such bullshit - your kidding me right - what gives your the right to even say what you said - and who cares?

[Aether Audio]

smargo,

Oouch!!!  Looks like I struck a nerve.  That's OK, sometimes the medicine stings a little at first.  It will pass and we'll all be better for it though.

What gives me the right?  Two things:

1- The Truth.  I can't prove what I've said other than to name names, and I'm not about to drag other manufacturers into this.  And the fact is I haven't taken a poll of all the other manufacturers anyway.  In the general consensus of all, this may not be the final word.  I was referring to those I know and have personally spoken with about the matter.  Well, save one guy. I guess he makes out OK here on AC.  But...you can bet your bottom dollar I speak the truth regarding others that I have spoken with.  Just ask any of our customers, I don't have a reputation of telling fibs.

2-The same right you have to post the contentious "bullshit" you just posted.  It's called "free speech."  Geez, with your rabid reaction it would almost seem you have a guilty conscience.  But what do I know?

Oh...and I ain't going nowhere.

Welp folks...looks like another potential customer to write off the list.

-Bob

[Zero]

It is easy to see where this thread is headed. Suffice to say, I winced a bit while reading through this post. Right or wrong, if you want respect - this is not the way to go about getting it. Good luck.

[Aether Audio]

Oh, as a little "adjunct," I should say that some of the manufacturers I was referring to never actually had their own circle here.  They simply attempted to participate on a certain level and apparently, put considerable effort in doing so. 

And that's not to say they felt involvement was totally "worthless" either.  Simply that the payoff vs. effort ratio left much to be desired.  The problem is, if we manufacturers didn't really try to "give it our all," AC would only be a shadow of what it is.  The flip side is that if we do, we run the risk of spending too much time in an area that doesn't net an equitable return.  It's a shame as it seems that it's almost a built-in fact that somebody has to loose. 

All I'm saying is that "maybe" this situation could be improved.  AC already has a reputation of being a very friendly forum.  IMHO, it's that same "spirit" that has the potential to take it to the next level.  I guess I may be expecting too much though.  Human nature is virtually un-changeable.  Oh well, it was worth a shot.  Let the flames continue. 

I'll bet you one thing though.  While the non-manufacturers continue to stone me, behind the scenes I'm gonna get "atta-boys" from manufacturers that have felt the same way but didn't want to stick their necks out.  Don't worry guys...I'll never speak your names though they burn me at the stake!

-Bob

[smargo]

And that's not to say they felt involvement was totally "worthless" either.  Simply that the payoff vs. effort ratio left much to be desired.  The problem is, if we manufacturers didn't really try to "give it our all," AC would only be a shadow of what it is.  The flip side is that if we do, we run the risk of spending too much time in an area that doesn't net an equitable return.  It's a shame as it seems that it's almost a built-in fact that somebody has to loose. 


-Bob

im confused - which way is the exit from this site - apparently you haven't found it!

[lonewolfny42]

Bob....

I realize its summer and it's not the "audio buying season," but with as many as come to AC and to our circle, I'd have thought we'd get more than one order.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry or anything...but if this is any kind of indicator...I'm really beginning to question the value of our efforts here.

It is summer Bob....and retail is slow....people are on vacation...that's where their thoughts are.....their outside. Can't blame them...its nice out.

I'm not angry or anything....

No your disappointed....that can happen....hey, you have some very good speakers, and you want the world to know it.....but....as I've said before, they just haven't heard them.

Lest anyone accuse me of being a shill for SP Tech....nope...I'm an SP Tech owner...yes, whose heard a lot of speakers, and Bob's are among the best sounding around.

If they sucked....I'd tell you....really...

I hope you get a few more orders Bob....pricing,workmanship, sound quality... all very good....slowly the word will get around.

No one is an "overnight sensation" .....takes time to build a business.

                                       Chris

[F-100]

Bob,
  Your speakers look very nice. But at $1,349.00 per pair for a bookshelf speaker, that is not a bargain deal for sure. There is a lot of competition out there so I'm not surprise that your special sale is not going as well as you had thought. 

Just my .02

[mca]

I'm set in the speaker department, but have always been curious to hear these. Reading your posts has been a total turn off so now I can safely cross them off my list.

[yo2tup]

I'm set in the speaker department, but have always been curious to hear these. Reading your posts has been a total turn off so now I can safely cross them off my list.

I had the same thoughts.

[hmen]

Bob,
 This is a not-for-profit site that was set up by users, not manufacturers, for people to DISCUSS audio. Unlike audiogon, commerce is secondary here. Of course manufacturers run circles here in order to increase business but I think it's more useful to a business as a tool for building a reputation within the consumer community and, as some have mentioned, as a part of their customer service.
  The complaints you have about certain customers taking up a lot of your time and then disappearing are typical complaints that you hear from people in retail all the time, especially those who sell durable goods. If you believe that people who contacted you through this forum wasted your time unfairly you'd be better off discussing it in private with them through a PM rather than announcing it publicly in a way that sounds as if you're complaining about the forum itself.
                               Howard   
     

[Karsten]

No need to fry Bob here....

I for one know how busy Bob is, and that is more than most people would be able to handle.

The general message seems to be: "Please don't waste my time if Google can help you" I think that is fair enough knowing that Bob would happily be on the phone, acting audio help desk all day if enough calls him.

I know that anyone with serious questions to ask, always would be welcome to mail or call.

I think this summons it pretty well.

Karsten

[Russell Dawkins]

Bob,
  Your speakers look very nice. But at $1,349.00 per pair for a bookshelf speaker, that is not a bargain deal for sure. There is a lot of competition out there so I'm not surprise that your special sale is not going as well as you had thought. 

Just my .02

In terms of speakers that sound as good as what I've heard of the SP Techs, there is, emphatically,  not a lot of competition out there, especially at this price. I looked long and very hard before I bought my Timepiece 2.1s and found nothing at all, for my needs (accuracy, above all), that could be called "competition" at less than double the price.

Judged by looks and superficial specs like size, type and number of drivers there is competition, but who here buys like that?

[Aether Audio]

Well,

It looks like I need to clarify some things further.  Please read the following excerpts from my original post.

Here, all I am asking is for folks to be conscientious with regards to private messages and e-mails.  Be thinking “time” as you read it

All I'm asking is that you consider everybody's needs (including the other AC members) when you privately ask me specific questions about our products in the future.

Here, I am qualifying that request.  To be more succinct, I should have left out the “serious” part.  What I was ASKING was that if someone has a question, to please post it publicly for the benefit of everyone.  It does not matter if you are a potential customer or not. Your question may be the same as that of someone else and by my answering publicly as well, we save them the trouble of repeating the question and my need to repeat the answer.  I only have so much time and if it’s wasted in the process of repetition, then everyone suffers.  The essence of this is that everybody’s time is at issue here and is valuable to each of us.

If you're truly serious, then ask away - preferably in a public posting so I don't have to repeat myself ad-infinitum.

Here, I am taking ownership of the fact that I often go into extensive explanations.  Note the word “favor.”  I am asking this as kindly as possible.

I know that's nobody's fault but my own, so I'm asking this sort of as a favor more than anything.

The upshot of all this is that in my opinion, someone has needed to step up to the plate and address this issue for some time now.  Stepping back from the forest to see the trees, I guess that guy needs to be me.  Never having been known to step back from responsibility or the call of “need” when I have been able to be of service, here I go.

Anything can be “fixed,” it just requires proper engineering!  I guess what I am proposing is an AudioCircle Code of Conduct and Protocol for all members to consider and try to follow in their exchanges with manufacturers.  If not for all of AudioCircle, then maybe just for the SP Technology circle.  Other manufacturers are free to pipe in here, as well as the Admin on this one.  The final format for this should be the byproduct of committee if it is to be adopted for AC in general.  Otherwise, below is a list of guidelines that works for me.

1.  All questions of a technical nature or concerning product details, specifications, finishes, pricing, options, packaging, etc., should be posted publicly on the manufacturer’s forum. 
2.  All questions regarding application and appropriateness for a given situation or compatibility with other products should be posted publicly.
3.  Only issues concerning a serious and/or direct interest in placing an order for product, order status, delivery dates and other matters pertaining to an individuals private dealings with the company should be communicated via PMs and/or e-mails.

How’s that for a solution?  Now…if I’m such a bad guy, I’d really like to hear your logic.  This is probably the most logical and prudent approach ever considered to deal with these issues.  I can see a lot of other manufacturers raising their hands of support on this one and if adopted, has the potential to make AC a more efficient and better place for all.

So…why hasn’t somebody else thought of this before me?  See…I’m not just pissing in the wind or cursing the darkness.  I may “bitch” from time to time…but unlike many, rather than just flapping my gums, I offer solutions too.  I’m all ears folks.  Tell me where I’m going wrong?

So why do I bother in the first place?  Read the following again:

I see it somewhat differently as I have experienced otherwise.  I think that it is a good starting point, especially for "budding" audiophiles and that once exposed, eventually do become customers.

I, for one, do believe in AC…

Did you miss that last time?  What does it really mean to “believe” in something or someone?  For me, AC is more than a forum to sell my wares.  AC is a family.  Well, if you ask my personal family and friends, they’ll tell you that occasionally I give them crap.  They’ll also tell you that I usually have a good point too.  You see…at the core I’m a ‘trouble-shooter.”  I not only find problems, I fix them.  Sometimes that ruffles a few feathers along the way, but I’ve found that as long as I don’t give up and walk away, people eventually see my point and then TOGETHER, we fix the problem. 

There’s an old saying that goes like this:  “A friend cares enough to love you the way you are.  A mentor loves you enough to make sure you don’t stay the way you are.”  I’d say I’m a little more than a “friend” around here on AC.  I’ve been “spilling my guts” and mentoring a lot of you guys from a technical standpoint for years now.  Is it too much to ask for you guys to help reduce the burden on me a little?  Even if none of that were the case, I still have the right to set some guidelines on my own forum.  If there are those that simply can’t or won’t see my point…oh well.


Howard,

See above.


Chris,

Thanks my friend…I know, but the fact is things are picking up.  I just hired 2 full-time guys… I’m so behind.  I’m a little wigged about it all, but I’ll get over it.

F-100,

Bob,
  Your speakers look very nice. But at $1,349.00 per pair for a bookshelf speaker, that is not a bargain deal for sure. There is a lot of competition out there so I'm not surprise that your special sale is not going as well as you had thought.

Well…beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Ever priced the Magico Mini? Or…or…or…I’ll put our Mini up against any of them, any day of the week.  Focal, Sonus Faber, Wilson, you name it.  Just ask the owners of our other models if you think I’m dreaming.  And who said things weren’t going well on the sale?  This strikes at the heart of all my comments.  The fact of the matter is that it’s just the opposite, I have several orders already and at least a couple more pending – and there’s still a couple of days left for the special…but only one has been from AudioCircle!!!  Oh well, I guess that’s just the nature of the beast this go around.  No matter what, I still love you all anyway.


Karsten,

Thanks!  When the going gets tough, the tough get going.  Just think…this is really only the beginning!

Russell,

Thanks my friend!   See what I mean F-100?

-Bob

[KCI-JohnP]

Hi Bob,

Upon reading your initial post I was wincing(spelling??) as I knew what was coming. I can understand how you feel but I think you may be taking the wrong path to try and "get some respect". I too am a manufacturer but don't come to AC to try and make money, I have been a member here since 2003 but just until recently I don't think anyone even knew I was a manufacter. My post count is low(lots of pms) because I came here to read, learn and maybe make a few friends. Please don't misunderstand me Bob, I'm not trying to slam you or any such thing, just pointing out that maybe your looking at the membership here a little differently than you should. AC is not known for lack of a better word, it's "buying power". I think alot of the people here almost look at AC as a sanctuary, a place to get away from the usual audio fiasco. 

On another note, your speakers are beautiful and I'm sure they sound fantastic. I think if your patient people will discover what a screaming deal they are and will start to jump on them. I hope you have a nice weekend, or what remains of it anyway! Now, if you'll excuse me I think I'm going to head on over to your website and check out your lineup of speakers!!

Sincerely,
John

[Double Ugly]

Judged by looks and superficial specs like size, type and number of drivers there is competition, but who here buys like that? (emphasis added - DU)

From the "sometimes truth really is stranger than fiction" department I offer the following -

Some guy who goes by John-something-or-other (a number if I recall correctly) does exactly that, specifically the type and number of drivers.  He vigorously argued that other speakers were inferior to his and/or they were significantly overpriced solely - and I *do* mean solely - because they had fewer drivers than his new babies.

Who wudda thunk it?!? 

-Jim

[ooheadsoo]

Bob, your initial post may come across the wrong way, but the ideas in it are great.  Keeping technical and general questions public is a great idea (sorry, I know I'm guilty of wasting your time in PM, too, ) and strikes at the core of the issue.  AC is a great resource for information about your speakers.  I'm sure that MANY of your audiogon customers did their due diligence, researching your speakers, and the bulk of that information is found here on AC.  This is the largest database of information, observations, and opinions on your speakers that consumers can find anywhere in the world.  As such, it is surely a valuable resource, whether or not someone purchases your speaker via AC, audiogon, direct over the phone, or a through a dealer.

[bbchem]

   "Blessed be the peace maker"

Hi guys, I am new to the SP Tech Circle and have posted um-teen times on the Horn Shoppe Circle and the Omega Circle. I agree with each side in that both are making some good points and some uncomfortable points. I am an avid Audiogoner and Audio Circle reader. I have been looking at both almost simultaneously for over two years. I use one to balance what I read on the other. I have just sent my check to Bob for his new Minis. I don't know if I am the AudioCircle buyer or the Audiogon buyer since I read the posting on both. I first went to audiocircle to read about SP TEch and by chance found the add on Audiogon. All in all, I look for interesting out of the box technology for LoudSpeakers from smaller shops like the Horn Shoppe has I think two people Ed and his father and Omega is known for Louis. All three are easy to talk to and extremely passionate about this hobby and their work. I love that and have since only puchased equipment from more underground sellers. I can understand someones frustration when they pour their heart out and get no return or maybe a reason for not purchasing at this time might help the ir feelings. Anyway, we at AudioCircle need to help each other and support the wonderful people who use this as a vehicle to display their amazing wares. I will have 6 pair of speakers after getting the Minis and my brain tabulates all the feedback from all over and says to me that these have to be winners. I am the person on Audiogon who asked "HOW MANY PAIR OF SPEAKERS DO YOU OWN?"   REGARDS, BILL

[shokunin]

Bob,

We all know how time is valuable... However, raising an issue over the volume of customer questions is looking at it from a glass is half empty view point.  Why don't you start solving the issue by kicking this off with a FAQ of all the questions you've had to repeatedly answer.  This thread will go in circles unless you put some answers to questions many have asked... and probably will ask again since no new information has been posted.  I'm guessing you've had questions like:

How does the sound compare with the TP2.1 and TP3.0
What upgrades are available? for how much
Can these be used horizontally as a center
Multi-pair discounts
Costs of shipping
pictures of other finishes
Must these be bi-wired
How much space do these speakers need
Are these rear-ported
How close to the wall would you recommend
etc, etc, etc...

Don't assume that everyone knows about the Timepiece that they should be aware of the what the mini does or could do.  you're trying a new market segment and you'll gather attention of those who have never heard or considered the Timepieces before.  This is why you'll have to spend considerable time marketing (answering emails) to people who are new to SP tech..

A 14 day special is an extremely short time-frame if you're looking for buyers, when the product was just announced...   Not everyone comes here daily to see what's new.  Most people I know would like to it hear it first, or read a review comparing it to the bigger brother before even committing.  Having this debuted at RMAF or even a AC product tour is a way to get exposure.  Then offer some sort of introductory (cough 90 day) pricing, which will go away one week after RMAF.   A 30 day guarantee should not a marketing strategy to get someone to try a product, rather a reassurance that they can be returned if they are dissatisfied.

Glenn

[Aether Audio]

ooheadsoo,

You've never been guilty of wasting my time...you're a customer for crying out loud!  And neither is anyone else that's simply wanting information.  Even those that theoretically "could be" labeled as such, are not guilty of anything either...except maybe not looking at things from the manufacturer's perspective.  Even at that, its certainly not an issue of malicious intent, but rather simple and innocent ignorance.  You might never even think of such things if you've never been in our position.

It's simply come down to the fact that I am VERY busy these days and that we are forced to make the best use of our time.  Public postings of questions tend to benefit everyone involved.  Look, I'm no angel and I'm not totally altruistic either.  There's enough "greed" to go around for all of us.  The way I see it, if someone posts a question publicly and I answer in kind, those postings go to the top of the AC home page.  Then, more people see them and come looking around.  Bingo! More and more folks learn about us as time goes on.  Yep - totally selfish on my part. 

And why not?  Whether it's a public posting or a PM, I have no way of knowing if it may lead to a sale.  As much as I honestly do like to answer questions, don't kid yourself...I'm not doing so just for fun.  It's marketing, plain and simple.  Honest marketing...I don't use hype or lie.  I simply share the facts.  Our marketing is the superior design and physics behind our designs.  I don't have to hype anything, just share the facts and let the facts speak for themselves.

Now, if I'm taking the time to answer somebody's questions, and it is known full well ahead of time that such questions represent no guarantee of a sale, why shouldn't I see to it that I maximize the potential benefit of expending that energy and time by requiring that it be done publicly so others have a chance to see?  The person asking the question makes no guarantee of a purchase, so why shouldn't we try to glean at least some benefit from the effort beyond the limited potential implied via the basic exchange?

John,

AC is not known for lack of a better word, it's "buying power".

Exactly!!!  For us manufacturers it's just another marketing tool, with no guarantee of sales associated with it whatsoever (as if there are any guarantees anyway).  I have always understood this and expected nothing more.  Well...as much as for the members here as anything else, I had hoped a couple more folks would have picked up on the Minis.  That mainly because I was under the assumption that several really wanted to get into our stuff, but could never afford to before.  Aside from running a business, I still get a kick out of reading first time reactions.  Wanting to make people happy isn't a bad thing.

Aside from that, it still behooves me in my attempt to be a good steward of SP Technology (which, amongst many other things, means how I spend my time) to maximize these marketing efforts.  Seeing that AC is postured to be, for the most part, a public forum, it would seem appropriate and for the good of all involved that, in as much as possible, these issues be dealt with publicly. 

There is a place for private conversations and I understand that, but I would tend to think that AudioCircle, in its own right, benefits the most from the public exchanges.  Think of the antithesis:  What would become of AC if everyone started only PMing each other?  Whether its Bob at Sp Tech and his circle or those of others, in order for AudioCircle to grow and advance (if that is the desire of John R et.al.), it depends on the constant flux of new postings.  People don't tend to visit stagnant forums very often.

Glenn,

FAQ?  Good idea!  I'll have to get started on that ASAP.  Yep, most of those questions and a few others.  I don't assume folks know anything much about the Minis, why would they - they're brand new?  I've never shirked from answering questions - if anything... the opposite to extremes!  All I'm saying is that for the most part, I'm not going to do it privately anymore - at least when it comes to those things that have the potential to apply to a significant number of others - that's all.

And I'm not disappointed by the initial sales!!!  We've already done quite well.  In fact, the last thing I'd want is orders bordering more than 20 pair!!!  We're not making much at this price, so the more we make, the harder we work for less money.  That's the very reason we set the limit at the 31st.  We can't afford to keep selling them at that price.  What I was a bit disappointed about though, was that so few of what I perceived to be desirous "brothers" here on AC getting in on the deal.  When one is trying to be gracious, they tend to offer their "gifts" to family and friends first.  As I said, after these several years, I consider the folks here at AC to be almost family.  I guess you could say I was more hurt than anything.  Stupid me...huh?

-Bob