First ever tube gear - VAC PA100/100 - Am I hooked?

mfsoa · « **on:** 12 Jul 2007, 01:12 am »

I almost put this in Critics Circle but I don't mean this to be a review but mostly just babble about my first tube experience. I have done little gear swapping over the years, so what I'm going to say is just one guys opinion based on limited amounts of equipment but much exposure to real instruments, especially drums. Music: Jazz (OK, Fusion, I said it) some rock and classical.

I am borrowing a friends VAC PA100/100 in place of my CIA D200s. I have been happy w/ the D200s but after trying a Rotel RB1072 (? - Their 100 watt Class D stereo amp - BTW I heard from a Rotel Rep that this is the best sounding amp they make now - And it lists for what, $900?. This agrees w/ other's opinions that the 100 watt ICE modules are the best of the series) that I was really impressed with it got me thinking... Before trying these other amps I was really pleased with the bass of the D200s and less so as the frequency rose. My biggest gripe is with their lack (my ears, my room, my system...) of immediacy. The sound seemed stuck inside the speakers, like they were stuffed with fluff. The D200s image is very recessed and the sound smooth, but I'm looking for more snap and excitement.

I can say nothing about the VAC that won't sound like I'm parroting the Tube-lover mantra. The thing just sounds incredible. I greatly prefer the highs to those of the D200s. I guess I'm sensitive to cymbal sounds and the VAC is great in this regard. The VAC bass is plently powerful and controlled and the mids are glorious. The VAC sounds more dynamic and just plain more interesting to listen to. Instruments just sound right, I can't explain. Violins have actual resonating wood attached to them. With the D200s, the sounds are there but seem to lack the harmonic structure that the VAC conveys.

Is the VAC truer to the source? I have no idea. Is it a better amp than the D200s? Don't know that either. I don't care. It just sounds so much better to me.

I found the CIAs to lack the harmonic complexity of this tube amp. I theorize that it's the subtle alteration of this harmonic envelope, from attack to sustain to delay, that makes the VAC so much more listenable. Is the VAC horribly distorted and actually creating info that's not supposed to be there? Could be - Don't know, don't care. I'm just smitten.

I do hate the heat it makes and the energy it consumes and this may keep me from buying it in the end.

And for one last thing - Has anyone noticed an overall sence of being ill-at-ease whan listening to UcD amps? I can't put a finger on it, but I would find myself kinda clenching my jaw, even when listening to the tuner. Not in response to anything directly audible, but just that feeling of tenseness. This feeling is completely gone with the VAC. As I think I recall Frank Van Alstine saying, do we really know what horrible-looking square wave does to our ears and speakers, even though the individual ripples are above 20Khz?

I don't mean to bash my D200s and I especially don't mean to tell anyone else how much they enjoy their systems!!

Maybe it's just my first brush with tubes but I am really loving the snap, pace, clarity and just overall musicality of this thing. Cliches all, I know, but that's what I'm hearing. Music instead of sounds.
My wife also feels that the VAC sounds significantly better in this system.

-Mike

SET Man · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Jul 2007, 01:27 am »

Quote from: mfsoa on 12 Jul 2007, 01:12 am

...My wife also feels that the VAC sounds significantly better in this system.

-Mike

Hey!

Well, look like you've got a WAF from your wife.... now you could go out and by your own tubed amp!

Anyway....... Ahhhhhhh, there is something about tube isn't it? When I listen to acoustic Jazz for example it always reminded me of the real instruments.

Or maybe we just like the higher distortions that it produce compared to SS/chip-amps/D-amps stuffs.

Take care,
Buddy

bpape · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Jul 2007, 01:28 am »

Well, you took a big jump into the tube arena with the VACs. I've honestly never heard the VACs sound bad. They're everything you said. The ONLY drawback to many tube amps is the bottom end (where most solid state and digital amps excel - but IMO at the expense of the other 90% of the spectrum, the digital ones at least).

Once you get used to that tube sweetness, midrange purity, and imaging, it's tough to go back. Welcome to the dark side. If you want both, look at a tube preamp and a solid state amp.

Bryan

zybar · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Jul 2007, 02:41 am »

Quote from: mfsoa on 12 Jul 2007, 01:12 am

I almost put this in Critics Circle but I don't mean this to be a review but mostly just babble about my first tube experience. I have done little gear swapping over the years, so what I'm going to say is just one guys opinion based on limited amounts of equipment but much exposure to real instruments, especially drums. Music: Jazz (OK, Fusion, I said it) some rock and classical.

I am borrowing a friends VAC PA100/100 in place of my CIA D200s. I have been happy w/ the D200s but after trying a Rotel RB1072 (? - Their 100 watt Class D stereo amp - BTW I heard from a Rotel Rep that this is the best sounding amp they make now - And it lists for what, $900?. This agrees w/ other's opinions that the 100 watt ICE modules are the best of the series) that I was really impressed with it got me thinking... Before trying these other amps I was really pleased with the bass of the D200s and less so as the frequency rose. My biggest gripe is with their lack (my ears, my room, my system...) of immediacy. The sound seemed stuck inside the speakers, like they were stuffed with fluff. The D200s image is very recessed and the sound smooth, but I'm looking for more snap and excitement.

I can say nothing about the VAC that won't sound like I'm parroting the Tube-lover mantra. The thing just sounds incredible. I greatly prefer the highs to those of the D200s. I guess I'm sensitive to cymbal sounds and the VAC is great in this regard. The VAC bass is plently powerful and controlled and the mids are glorious. The VAC sounds more dynamic and just plain more interesting to listen to. Instruments just sound right, I can't explain. Violins have actual resonating wood attached to them. With the D200s, the sounds are there but seem to lack the harmonic structure that the VAC conveys.

Is the VAC truer to the source? I have no idea. Is it a better amp than the D200s? Don't know that either. I don't care. It just sounds so much better to me.

I found the CIAs to lack the harmonic complexity of this tube amp. I theorize that it's the subtle alteration of this harmonic envelope, from attack to sustain to delay, that makes the VAC so much more listenable. Is the VAC horribly distorted and actually creating info that's not supposed to be there? Could be - Don't know, don't care. I'm just smitten.

I do hate the heat it makes and the energy it consumes and this may keep me from buying it in the end.

And for one last thing - Has anyone noticed an overall sence of being ill-at-ease whan listening to UcD amps? I can't put a finger on it, but I would find myself kinda clenching my jaw, even when listening to the tuner. Not in response to anything directly audible, but just that feeling of tenseness. This feeling is completely gone with the VAC. As I think I recall Frank Van Alstine saying, do we really know what horrible-looking square wave does to our ears and speakers, even though the individual ripples are above 20Khz?

I don't mean to bash my D200s and I especially don't mean to tell anyone else how much they enjoy their systems!!

Maybe it's just my first brush with tubes but I am really loving the snap, pace, clarity and just overall musicality of this thing. Cliches all, I know, but that's what I'm hearing. Music instead of sounds.
My wife also feels that the VAC sounds significantly better in this system.

-Mike

Mike,

Great post!!

You picked a good amp for your first tube amp. VAC makes some very good amps up and down their entire product line.

Whether you ultimately stick with a tube amp (PM me if you are interested in some other possible choices around the same price point) or go in a different direction, I am glad you heard the differences. Now when you hear some of us talk about how Class D (or any other non-tube amp) doesn't do what a tube amp does, you know where we are coming from.

I know that I strayed from my tube roots over the last few years, but I am firmly back in the tube amp camp and won't be leaving anytime soon.

George

JoshK · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Jul 2007, 02:49 am »

Someone is selling their Dodd mono blocks....that has got to be in the same price range I'd imagine and a good chocie for that price bracket (guessing, haven't tried them).

arthurs · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Jul 2007, 03:27 am »

Good call on the VAC....Artie like VAC...

denjo · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Jul 2007, 06:19 am »

Mike, you wrote:

Quote

My biggest gripe is with their lack (my ears, my room, my system...) of immediacy. The sound seemed stuck inside the speakers, like they were stuffed with fluff. The D200s image is very recessed and the sound smooth, but I'm looking for more snap and excitement.

You might want to try the D*200 with a good tube preamp, like the Modwright, before you take the leap which will involve quite a bit of financial outlay. When I was auditioning the D*200 in Feb last year, my friend paired it with the Modwright 9.0 SWL linestage and it definitely brought that realism, "being-there" feeling that tubes excel. Coming from a tube background (AudioNote Meishu and Cary 300 SE - I still own the latter), I know the feeling that you are describing about the uncanny realism of tubes. However, class D amps have their strengths too - speed, efficiency, cool to the touch - while their thermionic counterparts do not have this advantage. At the end of the day its about compromises and what we value most in a system that encourages us to stay with a component, maximising all possible synergies and tweaks that will bring out its strengths and, sometimes, this can overcome much of the equipment's shortcomings!

1000a · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 03:39 am »

Quote

Music instead of sounds.
My wife also feels that the VAC sounds significantly better in this system.

-Mike

Funny you say that I went to see the guy who designed my amp about 5 yrs ago and he said women just love the sound of tube amps.

, or course I thought maybe he was blowing smoke- but no. I think people have to spend very serious SS dollars to get similar beauty.

For me there is nothing like tubes, there is great SS out there - no doubt, but for the dollars - tubes get me to the real deal quick- pure majic - love mine, can't imagine going SS again. next move for me is to go strait from PP design to SET or non feedback PP, say a Lynn Olson type of design.

When I was a kid and my brother and I were starting to get stereo fever my dad bought an old Bogen tube amp- it had a scratchy sound in the volume controll and some other strange noises but my God I'll never forget that sound of cyrstaline notes floating in space as if they were completely seperate things from those little Layfette speakers

and don't think you can't pull tons of detail from tubes, its quite doable- with various ICs and speaker cables such as maybe the anticable very open and detailed. I am basicly doing tubes somewhat on the cheap, Herbie's has now 3 diferent dampers for 9 pin tubes (blackbery- more detail/halo- less/peek-less again more body and so on). I can literally slip these on and off the inp/pre tubes and slightly shift the sound if I choose. very cool

and the amps these days are usually well detailed (out of the box) not the wooly things of old.

and my poor mans solid state bottom end is a powered sub (the tube amp drives nothing bigger than 4, 6" drivers) most recently I got a Monarchy DAC that has 1 SS DAC (I run strait too the sub) and 1 Tube DAC (I run to the amp). Gives me drive, serious impact, detail, big airy 3d stage, and all that glorious tube majic that helps to make wooden instruments sound like wooden instruments. tone is king

the care and feeding of tubes does take a little time to adapt to- but well worth the effort, you could very well be hooked

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 04:01 am »

Quote from: bpape on 12 Jul 2007, 01:28 am

Once you get used to that tube sweetness, midrange purity, and imaging, it's tough to go back. Welcome to the dark side. If you want both, look at a tube preamp and a solid state amp.

Bryan

yup, yup and yup. The 'moment' came to me not quite a year ago.....20 years of dinking around with solid state and switching amps I was sold in 10 minutes with my first tube monoblocks. There is just such emotion lacking with any other kind of amp for me...euphonic or not, I gotta' have it

Solid state brute-force amps went out for sale days afterwards.

Like Bryan, I had and liked 3 different tube preamps paired with it...but now most happily pair it up with a (Dual Mono) solid state preamp. It's got about everything I need to enjoy music thoroughly, day after day.

I woulda' laughed at you a year ago if you told me....

1. My everyday amps were gonna' be tube

and

2. That I'd feed them from a solid state preamp

It's wonderful how one's well-formed opinion can change in a nano-second in this crazy hobby once you hear it for yourself

Don't worry about babbling crazily Mike/mfsoa....it happens when you strike pay dirt in audiophooldom

DSK · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 06:21 am »

Quote from: 1000a on 13 Jul 2007, 03:39 am

... most recently I got a Monarchy DAC that has 1 SS DAC (I run strait too the sub) and 1 Tube DAC (I run to the amp). Gives me drive, serious impact, detail, big airy 3d stage, and all that glorious tube majic that helps to make wooden instruments sound like wooden instruments. tone is king

Welborne PS/SB3----GW Labs DSP----Monarchy NM24(Tube DAC--TVC / SS DAC--HSU SUB)----Promitheus Ref 2 TVC----Jolida 1000a amp----Odyssey Nightingales

Hi 1000a, I'm just trying to figure out how you are running your system .... there are volume controls on each of the SB3, NM24, TVC and 1000a. I'm guessing you have the SB3 digital output volume at max or disabled and are not using the linestage part of the NM24 (and thus not its volume control). Do you use the TVC as your main attenuator and just have the Jolida's volume set at max to get it out of circuit?

If so, that would mean that the sub (Run directly from the NM24 SS DAC) volume would not change with the main speaker volume. Or, do you leave the TVC at a fixed setting, the Jolida at max, and just use the SB3 volume so that sub and main speaker volume remains equal?

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 06:56 am »

Mike....
You may find the Aug. 2004 Rave at tvyankee's of interest....AudioValve mono-blocks with the VR4jr's...a nice match.....Link...

And the Gallery Photo's......

doug s. · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 12:07 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 13 Jul 2007, 04:01 am

Like Bryan, I had and liked 3 different tube preamps paired with it...but now most happily pair it up with a (Dual Mono) solid state preamp. It's got about everything I need to enjoy music thoroughly, day after day.

I woulda' laughed at you a year ago if you told me....

1. My everyday amps were gonna' be tube

and

2. That I'd feed them from a solid state preamp

It's wonderful how one's well-formed opinion can change in a nano-second in this crazy hobby once you hear it for yourself

Don't worry about babbling crazily Mike/mfsoa....it happens when you strike pay dirt in audiophooldom

tcg, which tube pre's did you try? while i am firmly in the tube camp, i would never give up my tubed preamp - i would give up my tube amps first.

ymmv,

doug s.

1000a · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Jul 2007, 07:07 pm »

Quote from: DSK on 13 Jul 2007, 06:21 am

Hi 1000a, I'm just trying to figure out how you are running your system .... there are volume controls on each of the SB3, NM24, TVC and 1000a. I'm guessing you have the SB3 digital output volume at max or disabled and are not using the linestage part of the NM24 (and thus not its volume control). Do you use the TVC as your main attenuator and just have the Jolida's volume set at max to get it out of circuit?

If so, that would mean that the sub (Run directly from the NM24 SS DAC) volume would not change with the main speaker volume. Or, do you leave the TVC at a fixed setting, the Jolida at max, and just use the SB3 volume so that sub and main speaker volume remains equal?

Hi DSK

Excellent guestions I responded on another thread specifically about the NM24- cause this will help others interested in the DAC , see below

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42597.new#new

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Jul 2007, 10:39 pm »

Doug / doug s.,

I was fairly happily suited to a system of tube preamp and SS amps (makes sense, right?), then I met the Dukies....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=26640.0

chgolatin2 · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 Jul 2007, 01:23 am »

I was "ONCE" a solid state guy until I fell in LOVE with tubes, the music WOW, the music sounds SOOOOOOOOO GOOD! Your not just listening to music but the music, instruments and everything else gets you really involved. WOW, now I am drooling! Good stuff for sure! However, this hobby could get expensive aa unless you like good deals such as on agon. Thank God for used equipment! Another mans trash is one mans gold!

1000a · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Jul 2007, 03:58 am »

chgolatin2

Its great to see you out making the audio rounds- excellent

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Jul 2007, 11:13 am »

Quote from: chgolatin2 on 15 Jul 2007, 01:23 am

I was "ONCE" a solid state guy until I fell in LOVE with tubes, the music WOW, the music sounds SOOOOOOOOO GOOD! Your not just listening to music but the music, instruments and everything else gets you really involved. WOW, now I am drooling! Good stuff for sure! However, this hobby could get expensive aa unless you like good deals such as on agon. Thank God for used equipment! Another mans trash is one mans gold!

Yup, I concur....but not much more than a year ago I wouldn't have thought that it (that is, tube amplifiers) were gonna' ever happen in my system.

It started with a vintage 6v6 Integrated Monblocks that, despite age and clear need for new caps, sounded wonderful in many ways. Then, I met the Dukies and I was smitten

More recently I found pairing them with a solid state preamp was better still.

Apparently, I like my euphonic coloration and odd-order harmonic distortion and equalization (let's face it, that's a good bit of the allure of tubes anywhere in the chain) closest to the end of the amplification line it seems. It doesn't really 'make sense' in that tubes are best used for low level amplification due to it's prowess in voltage manipulation (not current), while solid state's shining advantage is it's high level of current generation (ie., amperage generating......as in an amplifier).

You certainly need to be more careful in choosing your speaker set as tube amps are less forgiving of difficult loads, but once you have chosen one that works (it's really not hard with thousands of choices available to us all nowadays) you're good to go

So, out went theory and lab notes once I listened and my sonic enjoyment has appreciably advanced since

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 Jul 2007, 11:21 am »

As they say...."there's two sides to every story".....so....what do people "not" like about tube amps ?

zybar · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 Jul 2007, 11:31 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 15 Jul 2007, 11:21 am

As they say...."there's two sides to every story".....so....what do people "not" like about tube amps ?

Below are a few "potential" issues with tube amps. I say "potential" because each person will have their own thoughts.

1. HEAT!!! If you have lots of tubes, they can produce lots of heat.

2. Biasing the tubes - many tube amps don't have auto biasing and sometimes it can be a huge pain in the ass.

3. Tubes dying - from the moment you turn the amp on, you know each tube will die at some point....when? You never know.

4. You need to keep an inventory of extra tubes for when one dies. Not a huge issue, but can be costly when using NOS tubes.

5. Generally speaking, tube amps need more careful speaker matching than ss amps.

Now that I am clearly back in the tube camp, I will happily deal with these issues in order to get all the positives that tubes can offer.

George

mfsoa · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 Jul 2007, 03:33 pm »

Agree that the heat thing is definitely a problem in my smallish room, and as I said this may keep me from ultimately settling on tubes. I don't have the coin for summer and winter amps!

There is also the environmental concern - Pulling 400 watts at idle instead of 10 seems selfish to me, but I'm sure I do many other things (long commute, use of gas lawn mower, long showers to wake up etc.) that probably overwhelm the tube vs. SS question. But still, I want to do what I can reasonably do to reduce energy consumption and bills.

Since I'm borrowing this tube amp, the maintenance issues haven't popped up but that's a big concern too.

Another thing - I often use my system for background music (the classical feed from 93.9 FM in New York is fabulous, and I would often leave this on for hours at night), or to entertain the dogs while we're out and I just simply don't do this if it means leaving 4 x 100 watt KT-88 lightbulbs on all the time. So, while I enjoy the music from the VAC more, I listen to it less. Is that what we're after in this hobby?

No such thing as a free lunch once again...

Thank you all for your comments.