Japanese Chef's knives

jules · « **on:** 5 Jul 2007, 04:33 am »

For many years, some of them professional, I've used a variety of knives for food preparation. The range of designs has been what might be called western or maybe french designs. Now, they are readily available as sets, the most common set being the knives-in-a-block. These blocked sets look for all the world like the real thing but as far as steel quality goes [and how they hold their edge] they are a very pale imitation of what's possible.

My favourite brands are, in descending order, Trident [Wusthof], F. Dick and maybe Sebatier. The steel in tridents is very hard and holds its edge incredibly well. F.Dick comes a close second in this regard. Sebatier is french and like all things french, slightly different but on large chef's knives the blades have a thin back which is great when it comes to slicing without stuff falling all over the place. There's also a place in my collection for a chinese chopper/cleaver and again, the thin backed blade has its uses with the depth of the blade also having advantages.

Ramble aside, the purpose of this post is to ask about other peoples experience with Japanese knives, particularly with consideration of the quality of steel in mind. I recently tried a small, cheap japanese style knife just to see how it feels for different tasks and I'm impressed. I'm also impressed with the concept of a laminated blade that allows the use of a harder material sandwiched between other grades of steel. Once finished, these blades also look fantastic with the layers showing quite clearly. This form of construction is also used in Japanese swords and it really is an art form at the higher levels.

So ... Japanese kitchen knives ... steel quality ... others experience ... ??? [and please, this is not a hunting knife thread

]

jules

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 05:14 am »

Did you happen to see this website ?

Check out Global...

jules · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 05:26 am »

Thanks Chris,

I particularly liked this quote form Mr. Paul Mone ...

"I took the Yanagiba knife to my parents house a couple towns away. My mother is from Italy and has been cooking for over 30 years. She never quite understood my obsession for Japanese blades until last night. I let her use the Yanagiba to cut some fish.... she was speechless.... "

I wouldn't want to accuse Mr. Paul Mone of Cheshire CT of slight exaggeration so the idea of his Italian mother being rendered speechless by the simple act of using a kitchen knife appeals to me greatly.

More to the point ... I've done a certain amount of googling and will do a fair bit more but I'm also interested to hear other peoples personal experiences. Evaluating the quality of knife steel is quite tricky and only using a knife for a period really counts.

jules

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 05:26 am »

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/129/Chefs-Knives-Rated

S Clark · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 05:31 am »

Global makes a very nice knife, better balanced than my F. Dick or Henkel stuff. But my absolute favorite is an old Japanese that has an incredibly hard center core hammer melded to two softer outer layers of steel. The balance is absolutely horrible, but it can sharpen like a straight razor and hold its edge. It is so hard that you cannot use a steel on it, the edge shatters rather than straightens (looked at it with a microscope). As it gets a bit dull just strop it with leather.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 05:34 am »

jules....
Since your in Australia....and closer to Japan than us in the U.S., would not the cost of the Japanese kitchen knives be lower there ?

S Clark · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 05:46 am »

Forgot to mention that the downside of my japanese knives is that they are carbon steel. You have to take a bit of care to keep them from rusting. It doesn't bother me but some just prefer stainless.

jules · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 05:56 am »

The cooking for engineers article is interesting but as many of the forum respondents commented there, the idea of comparing knives with a factory edge, has some problems. factory edges can be crap and it would probably have been better to have all the blades sharpened by the same person [or best of all, the tester].

The Global's don't appeal to me all that much though they rate highly ... guess personal taste plays a big part here. What you say about your older japanese knife, S Clarke, is most interesting though. I think I feel a purchase coming on.

Cost Chris? ... I admit I just accept that a good knife costs a fortune. You would have noticed that some of the blades tested in the "engineers" thread cost more than $200. I know, given that they can look similar, that people tend to say it's a waste of money but my own feeling is that, like everything else, you get what you pay for and a really good knife is a pleasure to use [as Mr. Mone's mother would attest]

jules

ps SC, know what you mean about the carbon steel and it can be a bit irritating if you happen to leave a knife for as little as a minute while in the middle of a task, leading to that characteristic metallic stain/smell/taste when you take it up again ... I wonder if the same properties can be achieved with laminated stainless?

S Clark · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 06:06 am »

Well, my laminated japanese knife is carbon steel inside and out, but I think I remember reading about a japanese maker with a stainless/carbon/stainless laminate that would be the best of both worlds. If I run across it I'll post a website.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 06:09 am »

Quote

...like everything else, you get what you pay for and a really good knife is a pleasure to use...

I agree....

And the safest knife is a sharp knife....

S Clark · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 06:16 am »

http://justknives101.com/detail.aspx?ID=852 is very similar to the knive I have- may be the same one.

http://www.justknives101.com/Asian_Japanese_Knives_Sushi_Knife_Sashimi_Carbon_Steel.aspx has a link to the Dojo line that uses stainless in the laminations.

The prices are very reasonable, with the Tosagata Hocho Cutlery being dirt cheap for incredible quality steel.

jules · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 06:17 am »

That's great thanks ... I'll be reporting back myself.

Here's a possibility ...

http://www.kitchenwarehouse.com.au/index.cfm/fa/product.detail/productID/542

33 layers, stainless and on special at the moment

Scanpan make some good stuff though they are primarily pots and pans people to my mind.

jules

afterthought ... I wonder if diamond steels might be complimentary to steel this hard ??

Turnandcough · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 11:58 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 5 Jul 2007, 06:09 am

Quote
...like everything else, you get what you pay for and a really good knife is a pleasure to use...
I agree....
And the safest knife is a sharp knife....

In the right hands.
Having worked as a professional chef for 15 years I've seen lots of unexperienced kitchen staff finding out the hard way just how unforgiving a freshly sharpened chef's knife can be. I remember one apprentice garde manger proudly telling me that he had perfected his technique and was confident he would never cut himself again. Five minutes later he came running into my office, white as a ghost, with a blood soaked towel around his hand asking me to drive him to the nearest hospital ASAP.

Grumpy_Git · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 12:49 pm »

My favourite-est* Knives are made by these lot.

http://www.tojiro.co.uk

cheers

Nick

*tm.

wln1111 · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 01:13 pm »

The Kershaw Shun Classic series of knives are my favorite.
http://www.kershawknives.com/products.php?brand=shun

mcullinan · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 01:18 pm »

I would like to add my favorite knife of all time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abLB7aTmnE4

Mike

Daygloworange · « **Reply #16 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 01:31 pm »

Quote

But my absolute favorite is an old Japanese that has an incredibly hard center core hammer melded to two softer outer layers of steel. The balance is absolutely horrible, but it can sharpen like a straight razor and hold its edge.

I have used the Japanese style laminated wood chisels, but this is always a hard metal over a softer one. Are you sure that in the case of your knives it's the opposite? What are the two metals?

I happen to be pretty particular about knives. It needs to feel comfortable and well balanced. I've never spent more than $60 or $70 dollars for any knife, and find stainless steel knives perform quite well. I always resharpen them on japanese waterstones and finish on a grinder with cloth wheel with compound to a mirror finish. The edge I can achieve is razor sharp and can usually last a long time if you're careful with their storage, and usually can get away with just touching up the edge on the cloth wheel.

Cheers

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 01:41 pm »

Quote from: jules

My favourite brands are, in descending order, Trident [Wusthof], F. Dick and maybe Sebatier. The steel in tridents is very hard and holds its edge incredibly well. F.Dick comes a close second in this regard. Sebatier is french and like all things french, slightly different but on large chef's knives the blades have a thin back which is great when it comes to slicing without stuff falling all over the place.

Just an note to Jules' first post on this topic...

The Sabatier you get in every country, but the US, is likely a true and real Sabatier - made (or at least designed) in France. But, Sabatier of France never trademarked their name here in US...so what you normally find is Sabatiers for cheap prices, made in China and offered by at least two other marketing organizations than the real Sabatier.

You can find 8" Chef's knives for $20 called 'Sabatier'...those are the 'fakes'. The real Sabatiers are 3x+ that cost for a knife.

A friend is the 'real' Sabatier rep for New England and told me this story years ago...and, lo and behold, you can find Sabatiers for $20 (fake) and similar looking ones for $80 (real) in the marketplace.

On with the show....

PhilNYC · « **Reply #18 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 02:53 pm »

I don't own any Japanese knives, but I've bought Japanese cooking gear here:

http://www.korin.com/

They happen to be having a sale on Japanese knives....

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #19 on:** 5 Jul 2007, 06:42 pm »

I've heard very good things about the MAC knives. A friend I have swears by them, certifiably "scary sharp," not too much maintenance.