[Bob in St. Louis]

And the safest knife is a sharp knife....

Have'nt been able to convince my wife of that fact yet.....

[lazydays]

with one exception I use nothing but Henkels German made knives. They also make them in Brazil, Spain, and even China. But the German ones seem to hold the best edge for me, and that's got to be in the way they are heat treated. The vein of coal that runs thru Sologin Germany is regarded as the finest heat treating coal in the world. That one odd knife is Japanese, and it's a good knife.
But in the end I'll stick with what I've been using for eons.
gary

[lazydays]

Forgot to mention that the downside of my japanese knives is that they are carbon steel.  You have to take a bit of care to keep them from rusting.  It doesn't bother me but some just prefer stainless.

just a note to all of you. If stainless steel will harden it will rust just like carbon steel.
It's just the nature of the beast. Also you can sharpen a carbon steel knife even sharper than a similar stainless steel one.
gary

[jules]

Dayglow-o, I implore you to try a professional knife that costs a heap  . The best of the best are a joy to use and it's of necessity that they've been raised to the level they're at. What can I say? They'll take a sharper edge,  they'll hold it longer and they'll leave Paul Mone's mother speechless.

The reason for layering here lies in the fact that these knives need to be as thin as possible [unlike chisels] to slice cleanly. Sure, for the most part cutting jobs don't need resilience but knives also need to be able to take some abuse such as being dropped by accident, without shattering.

Lazydays ... You use Henkels and they're a very good knife but I don't quite understand the point you make about rusting. If you bury a knife under a tree for a year, yes, it will emerge with some rusting and pitting but for all practical purposes stainless doesn't rust while in  use. The older carbon steel knives literally rusted as you watched them and as I said earlier in this thread, they would stain food and impart a slight flavour.

Nick ... do you use the tojiros and what is your imression? They certainly have the layers [and the price!!] to put them in the big league.

As to the whether carbon steel can take a better edge than stainless ... Opinions might differ but my view is that while this was the case up until maybe 15 years ago, it no longer holds true.

Thanks for all the contributions here. I'll be following them all up and getting a few current professional opinions too.

jules

[aerius]

Personal thoughts, order up a custom knife from George Tichbourne.  I do own one of his knives and I'm really happy with it, handles nicely, cuts really well, takes a great edge and holds it for quite a long time.  440C is in my opinion the best choice for a kitchen knife due to its combination of hardness, toughness, and corrosion resistance, the latter of which is fairly important in kitchen work.  There are harder more wear resistant steels available, however they tend to be less corrosion resistant and thus stain & rust easier or they're more brittle and thus chip out more easily from accidental contact with bone or other hard objects.

As for stainless vs carbon steel, carbon steel wins out in everything except corrosion resistance.  To make a steel stainless, you need at least 12-13% chromium in the mix, problem is this screws up the grain structure, the grains are larger and the grain boundaries & microstructures aren't as clean.  This makes the steel more brittle and with the larger grains it's not going to take as crisp of an edge.  I actually have identical knives in both stainless steel (ATS-34) & carbon steel (M2 tool steel), there is no comparison between the sharpness.  The M2 blade will easily do this without even using a slicing motion and cut curves in cigarette paper.  With stainless, I have to use a slicing motion to get the same cuts while M2 just pushes right through.

[Daygloworange]

Jules,

You don't have to convince me much about having quality tools.    My knives actually perform really well. I've bought plenty, and given away the ones that I don't like. The ones I have now, are the ones that are the most balanced, and have the best overall performance of the ones I've owned. I think they're pretty darn good, and a joy to use.

I also have some hand planes in my shop that have A2 tool steel blades that are cryo treated. They take an edge extremely well, but can be microchipped when the edge hits tough knots in wood. But these will shave the end grain on wood so thin, that the shaving is transparent, and can fall apart by blowing on it.

I also have some Japanese Dozuki pull saws that are absolutely amazing, and an absolute joy to use.

Cheers

[jules]

Ah,  , clearly you and Aerius are both very much "converted" but maybe I led the thread somewhat astray myself by comparing conventional stainless knives with conventional carbon steel. The key question here is about what is possible with laminated blades. In the case of the Tojiro knives mentioned by Nick we are apparently looking at something with no less than 63 layers  . Seems to me this has all sorts of potential but as yet I haven't given something like this a go. I'm supposing there must be good and bad here with knives that look good not necessarily cutting the mustard [if you'll excuse the pun].

jules

[some young guy]

personally, i have wusthoff, forcshner, global, sabatier deglon, sabatier lyon, sabatier elephant thiers-issard, caput thevanot  and a couple others. for me, it all depends on what i need them for. sometimes i need a light, thin knife for delicate items, then i use the caput thevanot. it's carbon steel, so it's like a razor blade. for flat fish, nothing beats my sabatier deglon flexable fish knife. peeling garlic... sabatier elephant birds beak paring knife. beautiful chiffanade... sabatier lyon. etc. etc. etc... i love knives! these are some really nice japanese knives: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/hattoriknives.html
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HATTORI.html

[JohnR]

jules, if they carry what you want, this place has good pricing (I bought a few Global knives there):
http://www.petersofkensington.com.au/Home/

[Rob Babcock]

personally, i have wusthoff, forcshner, global, sabatier deglon, sabatier lyon, sabatier elephant thiers-issard, caput thevanot  and a couple others. for me, it all depends on what i need them for. sometimes i need a light, thin knife for delicate items, then i use the caput thevanot. it's carbon steel, so it's like a razor blade. for flat fish, nothing beats my sabatier deglon flexable fish knife. peeling garlic... sabatier elephant birds beak paring knife. beautiful chiffanade... sabatier lyon. etc. etc. etc... i love knives! these are some really nice japanese knives: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/hattoriknives.html
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HATTORI.html

Wow, that's quite a collection!   I've spent most of my adult working life in the kitchen, but my roll is not nearly so extensive.  When it comes to Japanese knives, the only one I've used extensively is the Santoku, although I've been considering adding a ceramic surimi knife to my collection.  Truth be told, I'm a bit of a stick in the mud, knife wise.   I tend to use a French knive for 75% of all my work, generally an 8" or 10" Wustoff Trident or 10" Henkels.  A few things absolutely require a scimitar or carving knife, such as cleaning tenderloins or breaking down large whole fish, but I could do 95% of my work with the following:  1 x 10" French knive, 1 x 8" French knife, 1 x 8" filet knife or scimitar, 1 x 7" Santoku, & 1 x 4" paring knife.  Obviously on occasion a serated bread knife or other specialty blade is useful.  And naturally some other non-knife tools are esssential as well (eg mellon baller, zester, etc).

[jules]

This is the path I'm following ...



and



Aren't they totally brilliant? Rockwell hardness 60! A bit of elaboration ... these are 63 layers thick [or maybe thin] so what you're looking at is like a rubbed down multi-layer paint job!

jules

[Imperial]

Glestain is a good knife type.


Looks a bit odd...

The 6 3/4 Santuko is a very balanced knife! Really an all purpose cutter/slicer!


I like a bit of weight to the knives. And they must have the point of balance were you aim to make the cut!
I.E a bit front heavy.

But this one (I just got my cam... gotta use it...) Is balanced for quick vegetable cutting. Its the one I use the most! Its got a rubber handle, and considering its dirt cheap, its very good!


The clothing hanger metal top there is for scale...  aa and, yeah, it needs to be sharpened..

Imperial

[Bemopti123]

Jules, what sort of knife is that?  The blade reflections reminds of some fine limited edition Emotive preamp SS decorated tops.  Give out the name of the blade maker.   

[some young guy]

...and don't forget the water stones. i use 800, 1000 and 1200 to finish my blades once or twice a year, as needed. i've not found anything better than the japanese wet stones... much better than any oil stones i've used.

[lazydays]

Dayglow-o, I implore you to try a professional knife that costs a heap  . The best of the best are a joy to use and it's of necessity that they've been raised to the level they're at. What can I say? They'll take a sharper edge,  they'll hold it longer and they'll leave Paul Mone's mother speechless.

The reason for layering here lies in the fact that these knives need to be as thin as possible [unlike chisels] to slice cleanly. Sure, for the most part cutting jobs don't need resilience but knives also need to be able to take some abuse such as being dropped by accident, without shattering.

Lazydays ... You use Henkels and they're a very good knife but I don't quite understand the point you make about rusting. If you bury a knife under a tree for a year, yes, it will emerge with some rusting and pitting but for all practical purposes stainless doesn't rust while in  use. The older carbon steel knives literally rusted as you watched them and as I said earlier in this thread, they would stain food and impart a slight flavour.

Nick ... do you use the tojiros and what is your imression? They certainly have the layers [and the price!!] to put them in the big league.

As to the whether carbon steel can take a better edge than stainless ... Opinions might differ but my view is that while this was the case up until maybe 15 years ago, it no longer holds true.

Thanks for all the contributions here. I'll be following them all up and getting a few current professional opinions too.

jules

I was making a point that if steel will harden it will rust. Nothing more or less. My former occupation delt with various forms of metalurgy, and believe me I've seen high dollar brands of stainless steel emerge as a ball of rust after six weeks in some enviorments. Most folks think that if it's stainless steel it wont rust, but it might. I could take this discussion of the good and bad points of S.S. steels much deeper, but see little value in it. Myself I'm with a couple others here in that I still like carbon steel knives better than stainless steel (even though I own very few).
   
     Getting back to the Japanese knives; my daughter told me she bought one for slightly over two hundred dollars a few weeks ago, and felt it was the best knife she's ever seen or used. I'm not looking for new knives as much as a good mezzaluna. Anybody been shopping for one lately?
gary

[lazydays]

This is the path I'm following ...



and



Aren't they totally brilliant? Rockwell hardness 60! A bit of elaboration ... these are 63 layers thick [or maybe thin] so what you're looking at is like a rubbed down multi-layer paint job!

jules

I really liked the way those knives looked!! Very nice, and will assume they work as well as they look.
gary

[lazydays]

Personal thoughts, order up a custom knife from George Tichbourne.  I do own one of his knives and I'm really happy with it, handles nicely, cuts really well, takes a great edge and holds it for quite a long time.  440C is in my opinion the best choice for a kitchen knife due to its combination of hardness, toughness, and corrosion resistance, the latter of which is fairly important in kitchen work.  There are harder more wear resistant steels available, however they tend to be less corrosion resistant and thus stain & rust easier or they're more brittle and thus chip out more easily from accidental contact with bone or other hard objects.

As for stainless vs carbon steel, carbon steel wins out in everything except corrosion resistance.  To make a steel stainless, you need at least 12-13% chromium in the mix, problem is this screws up the grain structure, the grains are larger and the grain boundaries & microstructures aren't as clean.  This makes the steel more brittle and with the larger grains it's not going to take as crisp of an edge.  I actually have identical knives in both stainless steel (ATS-34) & carbon steel (M2 tool steel), there is no comparison between the sharpness.  The M2 blade will easily do this without even using a slicing motion and cut curves in cigarette paper.  With stainless, I have to use a slicing motion to get the same cuts while M2 just pushes right through.

actually the reason so many knives are made from 440C and 416 stainless steels are the ease of machining. 410 would be better along with 17PH4 and a good "16" series. None of these are all that much fun to machine, but have a far better grainular structure (17PH4 being the hardest to work with).
gary

[aerius]

actually the reason so many knives are made from 440C and 416 stainless steels are the ease of machining. 410 would be better along with 17PH4 and a good "16" series. None of these are all that much fun to machine, but have a far better grainular structure (17PH4 being the hardest to work with).
gary

410?  Are you sure that's not a typo or something?  As far as I know 410 stainless is used only in the handles & frames of various knives.  It's dead soft (around 40 on the Rockwell C scale) and the edge would fold and roll over very easily.  I've never heard of 17PH4, but a quick search leads to 17-4PH which has rather similar properties to 410 stainless.  Great corrosion resistance, but again, practically no carbon and dead soft, which leads me to doubt its abilities to hold or even take an edge.

Generalizing rather broadly, practically every good cutlery steel has at least 0.5% carbon content and a hardness on the Rockwell C scale that's at least in the mid 50's, and usually in the high 50's to low 50's.  That's basically what's needed to provide for decent carbide formation for wear resistance along with the ability to take a crisp edge and prevent that edge from folding over & denting during everyday cutting tasks.

[Imperial]

Jules, what sort of knife is that?  The blade reflections reminds of some fine limited edition Emotive preamp SS decorated tops.  Give out the name of the blade maker.   

The top one is a Hattori "Damascus" HD. Santoku style blade.
The second a Hattori "Damascus" SD. Gyuto style?

Works of art!

[topround]

Didn't Bill of" Kill Bill' have a Hattori sword?

You Lie!