[Imperial]

Hah! Do not! 'tis true I tell you! 
Proof Have I , Yoda shall wield keyboard! "punch punch!"
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/hakdpakn13.html
Look, not with your eyes, but with the spark...  aa

Imperial


 

[Pez]

Hi Guys,
Here is my kitchen knife set... Err rather the portion that I love! I really think if you get anything made in Japan the quality is unmatched period.

Shun made in Seki City Japan.



Check out the folding pattern.



For bigger cuts of meat I like to use this though.



This is my Custom made Katana w/ Dragonfly setting. Most beautifully hand crafted piece I own.



 

[lazydays]

actually the reason so many knives are made from 440C and 416 stainless steels are the ease of machining. 410 would be better along with 17PH4 and a good "16" series. None of these are all that much fun to machine, but have a far better grainular structure (17PH4 being the hardest to work with).
gary

410?  Are you sure that's not a typo or something?  As far as I know 410 stainless is used only in the handles & frames of various knives.  It's dead soft (around 40 on the Rockwell C scale) and the edge would fold and roll over very easily.  I've never heard of 17PH4, but a quick search leads to 17-4PH which has rather similar properties to 410 stainless.  Great corrosion resistance, but again, practically no carbon and dead soft, which leads me to doubt its abilities to hold or even take an edge.

Generalizing rather broadly, practically every good cutlery steel has at least 0.5% carbon content and a hardness on the Rockwell C scale that's at least in the mid 50's, and usually in the high 50's to low 50's.  That's basically what's needed to provide for decent carbide formation for wear resistance along with the ability to take a crisp edge and prevent that edge from folding over & denting during everyday cutting tasks.

410 stainless steel will harden, and is much tougher than the 416/440 series. It's just harder to work with because of it's properties. It's also thought to be a little stronger than the other two. The problem with 410 is that it's harder to gain that last few ten thousandths of an inch (or in this case finish out). But if you know how, it's not all that bad. 17PH4 is a bitch! That's what they make landing gear struts out of for carrier based planes. There also is some experimenting going on with some rifle barrels due to it's ability to handle high heat in tight confined places. 410 and the 17 series steels have less of a problem with cracking than the other 400 series do, but doubt that's a realistic factor here. Still I guess is we wanted something that would handle being tossed in a fire or beat silly then we'd all have our knives made from Hestalloy. Then we could spend weeks trying to hone that edge <g>!
    410 S.S. has found a nitch in the mold making industry due to it's high strength and resistance to corrosion. There is one other S.S. steel that is maybe alittle better for some aps, but will not harden to 60RC (might go 50RC). This one will not rust, even in deionized water. The problem with it is cost, but it's much better steel that the 400 series.
gary

[Imperial]

This is my Custom made Katana w/ Dragonfly setting. Most beautifully hand crafted piece I own.



 

Wow! I do like Japanese swords!
Who made yours? Bugei, Odd Frog, Tenold, SummerChild or something?

I'm drooling for a Clark L6 Bainite blade. I want it to last and be able to take use well!

Imperial

[ctviggen]

Hi Guys,
Here is my kitchen knife set... Err rather the portion that I love! I really think if you get anything made in Japan the quality is unmatched period.

Shun made in Seki City Japan.

What do you cut with that knife (second from top) with the divets in it? The divets don't cause problems when cutting?

[Imperial]

It makes so that the slices (of whatever, say tomato, potato... hehe you get it.) dont stick to the knife while cutting. The pockets/divets/dimples introduce small air pockets to the cut so that the cappilary effect is broken or lessened, making quick slicing easy and lays the slices nicely to the side...

Of more importance is how the grind is on the blade itself, you want the grindmarks to run from top to bottom on the blade, not from handle to tip. Does the same thing really, but on a smaller scale.



Imperial

[Pez]

Who made yours? Bugei, Odd Frog, Tenold, SummerChild or something?

I'm drooling for a Clark L6 Bainite blade. I want it to last and be able to take use well!

Imperial

It's a Bugei.  Dragonfly Katana, and yes it is a "Pratical" katana. It's so sharp I could cut off your arm and you probably wouldn't feel a thing.

What do you cut with that knife (second from top) with the divets in it? The divets don't cause problems when cutting?

Like Imperial said it's for keep food from sticking to your knife after you cut it.  It really was never something that bothered me at all, but the knife came that way. I do notice a difference though.

[Daygloworange]

Those multi laminated steel blades are beautiful. I gotta try one of those knifes one day.

Cheers

[Imperial]

Bugei... Right on!!! Nice!



 



Imperial

[aerius]

410 stainless steel will harden, and is much tougher than the 416/440 series. It's just harder to work with because of it's properties. It's also thought to be a little stronger than the other two.

HRC of around 40 isn't anything close to hard.  It's pretty much useless as a knife material unless you're cutting jello, boneless chicken breasts, and ripe tomatoes all day, try to cut anything harder and the edge will roll & fold over.  Even 420 series stainless is harder than that, and it's still pretty much useless in knives as the edges fold & roll over very easily, and the steel has practically no wear resistance.  In terms of strength, not even close, UTS for 410 stainless is around 200kpsi and a yield strength of around 150kpsi.  440C has a UTS of roughly 280kpsi and YS of 260kpsi or so.  410 does indeed have greater toughness and elongation properties, but we're looking at a knife here, not a prybar.

The problem with 410 is that it's harder to gain that last few ten thousandths of an inch (or in this case finish out). But if you know how, it's not all that bad. 17PH4 is a bitch! That's what they make landing gear struts out of for carrier based planes. There also is some experimenting going on with some rifle barrels due to it's ability to handle high heat in tight confined places. 410 and the 17 series steels have less of a problem with cracking than the other 400 series do, but doubt that's a realistic factor here. Still I guess is we wanted something that would handle being tossed in a fire or beat silly then we'd all have our knives made from Hestalloy. Then we could spend weeks trying to hone that edge <g>!

Knifemakers already make knives out of Stellite 6K and 6BH along with other fun stuff such as AISI A11 tool steel.  Grinding and sharpening extremely wear resistant materials is not a concern thanks to silicon carbide & diamond based abrasives.

[Obie]

After seven years of Henckel pro S knives, I just upgraded to Shun Elites-- powdered steel.  I had a 10" Shun Classic chef's knife that convinced me to make the move.  The Elite knives are startlingly more sharp than the Classic knife, which had put the German knives to shame.  I'm very pleased with the purchase.

[jules]

Thanks to everyone who's posted here and particular thanks to Lonewolf for his early reference to the Japanese Chefs' knives site, on which the home page features Hattori knives. If you are even slightly interested in Chefs' knives this site is well worth a browse. Under the one banner a dozen different top line masters [and they really are!] are brought together for your convenience. None of these blades are cheap ... there's a hunting knife in there for a cool $2,000+ and there's also quite a few designs that are more realistically described as show pieces than practical works, still there are some chefs' knives that clearly combine both form and function and I'll be reporting back on how one of them functions in a month or so  .

If you're interested in kitchen knives but haven't tried any top line stuff here's some personal thoughts based on my own experience ...

For practical applications the better brands of knives such as Wusthof Trident, Henckel and Sabatier [a short lists only, there's more] are great. When I used knives professionally, my approach was to give my knives a quick sharpen daily on a two sided oilstone and use a steel during the day. For home use, the same knives only need to be oil stone  [or whet stone if you prefer] treated as infrequently as once a week or even a fortnight but good knives like this do need more than just a steel to keep them keen. For professional use, going over to Shuns, Hattoris etc looks as though it's going to take things up another level [and probably something of an indulgence for home use] but all of these knives are well above the critical point below which a knife isn't worth considering. I guess a rule of thumb for me would be that a knife should be able to hold an edge with the help of a steel, for a day of professional use [= a week or more of home use] without need for the use of a stone. There's a surprising number of knives that can't do this! There's even quite a few knives that can't hold an edge for an hour although they look for all the world like the real thing. A blunt chefs' knife is useless! In fact, one of those relatively thin bladed serrated edge, horrible and contemptible kitchen knives that cost next to nothing, will do just as well as a blunt chefs' knife, so for those with no interest in using a stone, don't waste your money on a top line blade!

jules

[ooheadsoo]

For those of you without the balls to use standard oil or water stones:

sharpmaker


But your knives have to be in good shape to use on this system.  It will take too long to restore a ruined edge.

[jules]

I suspect Ichiro Hattori would wince in pain at the suggestion ooheadsoo  . The recommended technique for most of these knives is very classic and in the case of Hattori blades they go for a process of working through three different coarseness of whet stones using water, but it's probably a reasonable solution for those who don't want to go with the stones ... thanks ooheadsoo

jules

 

[ooheadsoo]

There are multiple grades of "crock sticks."  There is little practical difference to the motion used when using stones and using the system.  The primary difference is that you stroke across the stone (crock stick) downwards with the blade held vertically instead of placing the stone horizontally and holding the blade at an angle.  The selling point is that it's easier to hold a blade vertically instead of at 20 or 15 degrees - the base sets the angle for you.  If you're a skilled user, you can sharpen your knife to as refined an edge as you'd like.

[Rob Babcock]

Lansky makes some very good knife sharpening systems too, foolproof guide systems that let you very accurately get a consistent edge.  I can't even imagine sharpening a knife daily- perhaps if you worked as a butcher or in a meat packing plant...short of that a few passes over a steel should suffice.  Obviously with knives it's a tradeoff; a blade made with very hard steel will hold an edge well but can be brittle and a lot of work to sharpen.  A soft steel is easy to sharpen but doesn't hold the edge for long.  I think the Shuns are genius, made like a samuri sword with a very hard inner layer (about Rockwell 64 or so) with softer steels on the outside for durability & strength.

I tried couple of Cutco knives today and was pretty impressed by their edge.  They're about the same price range as Wustoffs.  They claim excellent edge retention and will sharpen them for you for just the cost of shipping.  I've been pretty happy over the years with Tridents & Henckels, but I'd like to try a couple Shuns and have been thinking of getting a ceramic Surimi knife.

[ooheadsoo]

I thought about getting a Lansky style system just to play with it.  It should work very well.  I remember there was an big table mounted version similar to the Lansky that used regular stones instead of the Lansky mini stones, and it was so consistent that you could get a razor sharp mirror polished edge at pretty much any angle you wanted.  Very heavy duty and takes most of the skill out of the chore.  I think it was a couple hundred dollars.

[jules]

Go Rob, buy a ceramic  ... and a couple of shuns as well !

As far as the "daily sharpen" goes ... this was something I arrived at from trial and error rather than from becoming obsessive  . I suppose it would vary a great deal depending on what style of food prep. you happened to be involved with. I notice that KFC [and McDonalds?] have managed to totally eliminate knives from their workplaces. The stuff I was doing was highly knife intensive with very little mechanized gear. Immediately after using a stone, running a steel over a blade has a sort of soft feel to it and it actually sounds slightly different. After a day of using a steel every half minute of use [and we've all seen butchers doing this] the edge doesn't recover in the same way so it's back to the stone.

I wonder, with these systems like Lansky of which I know nothing, if they are kind to blades in terms of the amount of metal they take off in the long term. Anyone know ... ???

jules

[ooheadsoo]

The Lansky style system works like this:



As you can see, it's just like using a stone but in "reverse."  The knife is fixed in the clamp and the stone has a fixed angle (user discretion,) so you get the same angle stroke every time.

The table mount system I mentioned is much heavier duty, immaculate precision, and uses regular stones just like you're used to, but unless you're an expert sharpener, I doubt you can get the machine like mirror polish that this type of system will give you.

Oh, to answer your question, since the precision is most likely higher than your average freehand sharpener, you will probably take off less metal in the long run. 

[brj]

Wow, some of these knives look impressive, both visually and in terms of design and metallurgy.  I wish I could justify one!

How good are the electric sharpeners, ala Chef' Choice, etc.?