Help me select my first turntable please? And answer a few vinyl-questions?

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #40 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 10:08 pm »

Crazy,

I'd go for the 1200. You get used to a manual table. The Audio Technica cartridge is a good move too. If you buy a "lesser" table now you may upgrade later anyway, just get it over with. It's cheaper in the long run. Kevin at KAB has 1200s with 78 RPM capability.

Feel free to Private Message me when you get your TT. Come by my place, have a beer and relax, listen to some tunes, and I will set everything up for you so when you get home all you have to do is plug and play. I've been looking for a good excuse to go to Rock and Roll Heaven.

Also, another good indication of how much a record has been played besides sheen and scratches is to look at the spindle hole in the middle. Lots of wear there, from putting it on and removing it from the platter, means lots of play.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #41 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 10:44 pm »

Quote from: Nels Ferré on 13 Jun 2007, 10:08 pm

Also, another good indication of how much a record has been played besides sheen and scratches is to look at the spindle hole in the middle. Lots of wear there, from putting it on and removing it from the platter, means lots of play.

...and that's not just for records!!! aa

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #42 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 11:07 pm »

PA,

You are a sick and twisted individual. I like that!!

I am still laughing!!!!

WEEZ · « **Reply #43 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 11:22 pm »

woooooo

I agree with Nels. Go for the 1200 w/ 3 speeds; get (2) headshells so you can fit a 'standard cartridge in one; and a 78 rpm in the other.

It will last you thru a couple of upgrade 'bugs'.

WEEZ

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #44 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 12:38 am »

The Technics may actually be your first and last turntable. Something you don't have to upgrade (unless you choose to) becomes an even better value.

You mentioned the Technics B Series. This is not even close to a 1200. Everything about a 1200 is substantially upgraded over the B series. Its like the difference between a Chevy Cavalier and a Corvette. You really aren't paying that much more to step to a 1200, but you are light years ahead in performance (unlike my car analogy, which costs 4 x more.)

Let me give you a personal example. Years ago, I owned a Technics SLQ-D33, now discontinued, which was 2 steps above the B series you are looking at now. It has the same arm as the B series. I almost never listened to vinyl, because the Technics was unable to extract the information from the grooves well enough to deliver the experience we are all seeking with vinyl in the first place. Since going the upgrade route (at a cost many times more than the 1200) I listen to vinyl almost on a daily basis. Additionally, better turntables have a way of placing surface noise on a different "plane" so it is much less obtrusive. Additionally the P mount arm on the B series will drastically limit your choice of cartridges, and the table really does not have an upgrade path, should you desire, without replacing it. The arm on the 1200 has adjustments to allow you to get the most out of your vinyl (or shellac.) The B series arm has no adjustments. It's kind of like the "Kenner Close and Play" turntable.

If you do decide to go the B series route, do not buy a Grado cartridge to go with it. Despite the fact that it fits and should work well, the cartridge is a poor match for the arm- you will end up with the "Grado dance." You will physically be able to see the cartridge body wiggle as the LP is being played.

If I were in the market today for a new TT, I would consider a 1200 for myself. If you want to "trick your turntable" Kevin has lots of really cool accessories for it as well, but even straight from the box, it is a great unit.

I hope this helps.

crazyface · « **Reply #45 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 12:57 am »

You guys have a good point, and it's very much in alignment with my initial thinking on the matter - I just wanted more money initially to buy records with, really.

But what would be the point if I'm not playing them back properly, right?
So, all right then, you've sold me - I just won't be able to afford it for another month or so.

Now - are you all advocating ANY 1200 model, or is there a significant difference between the MK2 and MK5?

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #46 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 01:14 am »

A Mark II should be fine, you shouldn't need the extra 8% speed adjustment capability fom the Mark 5.

bpape · « **Reply #47 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 01:31 am »

I'll go a different way. If you want a nice musical table first time around, check out Music Hall. Excellent product for a reasonable price - great support, solid engineering, just music all the way.

Bryan

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #48 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 01:33 am »

A 1200, aided by an electronic stylus gauge and its on-the-fly VTA will take your enjoyment to undreamed heights @ this price point. In order to get soundstage magic and total emotional involvement VTA can be sensitive w/in 1/10 of a millimeter and VTF w/in 0.05g...you will need to write down your settings if you're changing cartridges. I've been doing that now that I have five active cartridges. There will be plenty of used, in great shape records to choose from: all you need is an eBay Groovmaster cleaning device and good enzymatic agent + a cleaner; a RCM is optional but still great to have!

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/363670.html

I suggest you get the 1200 with the better tonearm wiring and ready to go RCA/DIN terminals. It's better to be patient and save your pennies.

I'm not sick

I'm experienced.

***

frustrated · « **Reply #49 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 02:12 am »

I have had a few but each time I came back to Thorens.

samplesj · « **Reply #50 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 03:04 am »

Quote from: tvad4 on 14 Jun 2007, 02:05 am

I owned a MMF-7. It was like a toy compared to the Technics SL1200 MK II. Not even close, IMO.

It might have benefited from a better cartridge than the stock Eroica H.

Why do you say that? I'll agree that the Eroica H isn't that grand, but toylike is a pretty strong statment.

Doesn't the cartridge you are using now cost pretty close to what a MMF-7 would? How much of the difference is due to the better cartridge? I'm serious with that question because I'm considering picking up a Benz Glider or H2 myself so I've been checking the posted comments.

Also take a look a prices. I paid less than a tricked out SL1200 would have been for my used MMF-9. I think the original poster could do much worse than a used 9 if his budget can handle a tricked out sl1200. The 9 adds a speed controller, acrylic platter, multi-layer plinth, outboard isolated motor, and a carbon arm.

Wouldn't resale percentage on the MMF be higher too? Modded gear usually barely increase resale value.

doug s. · « **Reply #51 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 03:28 am »

check out my post on this thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42029.new;topicseen#new

doug s.

bpape · « **Reply #52 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 10:55 am »

One could make the same claims about the Linn - lighter platter, lighter plinth, etc. - but as much of a PITA as they are to set up, they still make music. I've never heard speed stability issues with the MH unless it needed a belt change or there were serious power problems. Not knocking the Technics - just offering another option.

Bryan

doug s. · « **Reply #53 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 06:22 pm »

i would choose a technics 1200 over a linn any day of the week. not that the linns aren't nice, but i think the technics' are nicer.

you do not see technics 1200 f/s used on agon or a/c, because most "audiophile" types snub them - they won't be selling them if they don't own them!

if you are looking to get a deal on a used 1200, go to ebay. lotsa dj types are selling them over there...

if you have a few dollars more, look for a used technics sp10. the one f/s here recently was a freaking bargain; if i were in the market, i woulda nabbed it poste-haste. i was sorely tempted to nab it anyways - it would likely be as good (if not better?) than my tricked out oracle. but my oracle is yust so damned pretty!

doug s.

crazyface · « **Reply #54 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 06:40 pm »

Hello

Ok, I'm sold on the 1200 from KABUSA - it just seems the "safe bet."
I was reading in another thread that the "in line" type stylus/cartridge are much easier on the records, doing far less damage. do cartridges have single, set stylus types - or can i use any shape stylus i want with just about any cartridge? i definitely want the in-line kind of stylus...

lcrim · « **Reply #55 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 07:28 pm »

Let me state upfront what many already know, I own a KAB modded Technics 1200 MKII and Kevin Barrett is a friend. I have refrained from taking part in this discussion because of that.
Kevin inspects every machine he sells and will stand behind that turntable in terms of any issues. This is not true if you buy the TT elsewhere and send it to him for mods.
The Technics 1200 is a very solid, reliable TT which is one reason for its popularity with the "scratching" crowd. Personally, if its your first TT, why take any chances with damage or wear. You have an opportunity to buy the only turntable you'll ever need, its rare in this hobby to find that kind of component. I do agree with Grant/TVAD4 that it does make many other TT's seem like toys in comparison.

lcrim · « **Reply #56 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 09:01 pm »

Grant:
I wasn't trying to make you look bad. I'm not that subtle.
I just don't see the wisdom in buying a used Technics to save a few bucks when you can get one that you can have complete confidence in for a very reasonable amount by buying new from KAB. Again, I'm not an unbiased observer and could be viewed as helping a friend but even at that, the newcomer asked for help and that is my honest opinion.

crazyface · « **Reply #57 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 09:06 pm »

Thanks again everyone.

I think I've now got a definite perspective for how to begin the vinyladventure. It'll still be about two more months before I'll be able to afford the modded 1200, plus cartridge - but maybe I can pick up a few records in the meantime. I'm really curious about "master-to-disk" pressings as/and "new old stock" vinyl - but I'm sure these are both really hard to come by. A lot of the records I'm interested in look to be listing for $30+, so it's going to be even more expensive than my CD collecting - but if it really will sound better to me, and get me more into the music I love, than CD's have been able to do, then it's definitely worth it -- and thanks a bunch to you all for all your help!

I'm sure I'll have more questions about cartridges and stuff.

Should I keep this thread going or start making new ones for my more specific questions? Thanks!

lazydays · « **Reply #58 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 10:42 pm »

First thing is to narrow your search for a good belt drive turn table. The rest will only be in second place at best. That aside I'd try to find one that uses arm boards, to create an upgrade path. After that the vibration thing becomes an issue of primary discussion. Direct drive turn tables often have a very firm suspension system, or none at all. My current turntable has no suspension system, but is still heavilly dampened (40lb. worth) Prior to this one I had a Music Hall, and a trio of drict drives. Even the Music Hall sounded better.
So what would I be looking for? I think I'd get on SOTA's website to see what they have in their rebuilt turn tables. These tables are well known for quality and are dead quiet. Plus you can change arm boards for whatever tone arm that fits your fancey. After that I think another good one to look for is a Rega 25 or a Music Hall #7. Given my choice it'd be a Rega everytime. But if your after a plug and play the Music Hall is a good place to start. The new marantz is another really nice turntable. And it comes with a really nice cartridge.
Lastly, no matter which turntable you buy, it will only sound as good as the phono stage and cables. I recently upgraded to one of the AVA's, and am sold on ZU cables for this usage.
gary

Rocket · « **Reply #59 on:** 14 Jun 2007, 11:30 pm »

Hi Crazyface,

Whilst it seems that a number of vinyl lovers on Audiocircle really like there Technics 1200 turntables there are still many options for you to consider.

Whilst I have don't have a really expensive rig I have had decent quality turntables for years. I've had the following gear in my system:

Rega 2
Acoustic Research eb101
Bluenote Piccolo Turntable

A secondhand rega 3 would be an option you could consider as its arm rb300 is quite simply a very good product. The p3 which is updated version of the rega 3 uses a better quality motor.

Another consideration is phonostages which can either make or break your system. If you buy a cheapy your system just isn't going to sound good. I recently purchased a number of phonostages for my system:

Perreaux sxv1 (not bad but it hummed quite badly)
Musical Fidelity xlps (similiar sound quality to perreaux but no hum)
Classic Cornet (hummed quite badly in my system and similiar sound quality to above phonostages)
Bluenote de medici ( I picked this phonostage up fairly cheaply and it sounds the best in my system)

Ebay or audiogon could be a good place to search for a good quality turntable.

Regards

Rod