[crazyface]

Hello! 

I know absolutely nothing about vinyl or turntables...  Could you help me in finding my first record player, and in answering a number of newbie-type questions I've got?

Thanks!  I knew I could count on you, internetstrangersfromwhomItakewhilegivi ngnothinginreturn. 

I'd like to get into the "bottom-end of the sweet spot", with my first turntable purchase.  Nothing that's more than a few hundred US dollars, if possible - but that's still ever-so-slightly more-than-good-enough to show me what the magic of vinyl is all about.  Can you make some recommendations?  Are there any good sources for refurbished models?  Is the stylus the most important part of the turntable?  Are all stylus compatible with all tonearms/turntables?  Should I upgrade my stylus right away - how much difference does it make?

Once I've got one, what do I need to integrate into my system?  Ideally, I'd like to be able to just plug it straight into my headphone amp (my headphone amp has RCA inputs).  Is this possible?  I looked at my father's turntable and on its RCA outputs it has an additional wire - the "GROUND" wire.  What is this about?  Does this mean I can't use the turntable with my headphone amp?
I also listened to my father's turntable.  I chose a record that looked perfectly clean, free of dust or particles - yet when I played it, there were still pops and clicks.  Is this normal?  Was this because he has a particularly old/cheap turntable?

Finally, what are some good ways to build my record collection?  I love avant-garde, classical, and experimental/historical Eastern European (Eisler, Weil, Shostakovich, etc.), but also plenty of more mainstream stuff like soundtracks to films (of the whole 20th century, from early to late).  I searched for a few titles I was interested in, and was dismayed to see that they are rare/expensive...I feel like I'm in a race against deterioration/collectors to get the music I want before it's all gone!  How should I go about collecting the titles I want before they disappear?  What are good sources from which to buy, besides the obvious eBay?

Thank you so much for your help!!!!

[WEEZ]

Do you have a local dealer? That would help..

Does your headphone amp have a volume control? I assume it does.

You will need a phono pre-amplifier to connect your turntable to your headphone amp (or your receiver/integrated/linestage) unless it has this feature built in. It will have the grounding post on it.

The more expensive set-ups will do a better job of suppressing the ticks and pops...but even with clean records there will be the occassional noises...but they are 'outside' the music..not within it.

WEEZ

[crazyface]

Thank you WEEZ!

I have no local dealer apart from Best Buy/Radio Shack.   

My headphone amp has volume control.    It is a good amp!  It has RCA input, but no ground line.

Will a phono pre-amp do the same thing as a "phono stage"?  I have been told I will need one of these to turn the Phono out of the record player into RCA.

I understand that the "tone arm" and cartridge are very important.  Can I upgrade these regardless of what model turntable I choose?

[TheChairGuy]

Hi crazyface,

There are some turntables that include a phono preamp as part of your turntable...requiring nothing more of you than plugging your turntable into your headphone amp.

http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/index.htm

Here is one for $328.00 that might fit your first turntable needs well. The owner of KAB, Kevin A. Barrett, is very knowledgeable and will likely patiently step you thru all you need to know about your first turntable purchase.

There are other choices out there that accomplish the same thing for less or more dollars, but this one seems to be a sensible choice for your first turntable.

Enjoy and welcome to your new audio passion - vinyl.

Regards  ,

John / TCG

[2gumby2]

I second the recommendation for KABUSA. Good selection and good service.

[WEEZ]

Let me chime in and give a 3rd recommendation to contact KABUSA. Kevin has something for every budget.

If you're serious about collecting vinyl...you may wish to start with a Technics 1200 right off the bat. If you're interested in belt drive, then Rega players are available at reasonable prices. And, of course, there's always the used market.

But I would start with Kevin. www.kabusa.com

WEEZ

[WGH]

Finally, what are some good ways to build my record collection?

Yard sales are good place to gather used records, though quality can be hit and miss. Look for record fairs in your community. Here in Tucson, AZ there are a couple of fairs a year, I just got a new Joni Mitchell - Mingus record for $1, the brand new Elvis records cost me a little more, $2.50 each. One young guy was there for hours and left with a couple crates of music, around a couple of hundred I would guess.

KXCI, the local community radio station here still plays vinyl, they are slowly selling duplicates, so you could conceivably get thousands of albums (yes they have that many... and more) if you could do a road trip. Check them out at http://kxci.org/ Your local radio station might have a basement full of old vinyl.

Finally, a local dealer here in Tucson is selling his inventory, he used to have a used record store, a lot of stuff for $1. Don't know if he will ship, records are heavy and tend to warp in the heat. Send me a PM if you want his phone number.

[WEEZ]

...and yes, cartridge and arm are important...but so is the turntable itself.

Ideally, you want all three to work well together.   In other words; you can put a $1000 cartridge on a $300 turntable, but you won't get maximum benefit out of it...(the cartridge).

You can by a Yugo or a Porche...or anything in-between; but don't put skinny tires on your Porche....or a turbo on your Yugo

WEEZ

[crazyface]

My musical tastes don't tend towards too many popular records unfortunately...  I had problems buying laserdiscs because all of the movies I wanted were so obscure that they were very expensive, in high demand amongst competing bidders - or just not available!  I'm hoping I don't have the same problem with vinyl...  I like classical, avant-garde, Eastern European folk/political, Eisler, Weil, Shostakovich, early and experimental jazz, film soundtracks, etc... not the usual 50's-70's American/UK bands that most vinyl collectors seem to have tons of.  But at least vinyl had quite a longer time to build up its treasure trove than laserdisc did.  I'm just kind of worried, since I spent so much on the laserdisc player and I only have four movies for it.  <:/

If the Technics 1200 has the best upgradeability, then I'll just go with that.    It doesn't seem like it has a preamp (I may be wrong?) but I do have a cheap Technics AV receiver that DOES have a phono port, so, at least that would be a start - right?  If the preamp/stage manages the EQ of the recording (because of the way the grooves work), then I imagine that a better quality preamp/stage makes all the difference in quality of bass/treble?  Just how much impact do they have?

Is there much degradation of quality if I'm routing a signal through a receiver instead of just plugging it as directly as possible into my final output?  What I  mean to say is - is the sonic quality degraded much by the sound going into the Phono in, then a line out taking it into my headphone amp, instead of just plugging directly into the headphone amp?  In a system that must do without a standalone preamp/stage, that seems my only option.

I have some more general questions if you don't mind.  

How does every component of the system contribute to the final sonic quality?  I mean - what is the main turntable responsible for, what about the tonearm, what about the cartridge?  Which has the greatest affect on the final quality?  If I get the Technics 1200, can I use any cartridge I want?  There are tons of cartridges - do they all have different affects on the warmth/dynamics/bass/treble/detail/soundstage, or is it simpler than that?  Do they have any other affects (like lessening pops and clicks, or lowering background hiss, or anything like that?)

Thanks again!!  

[richidoo]

This post and reading the excellent review in current issue of Sensible Sound magazine about Technics SL1200 reminded me that I once went to Guitar Center and bought a SL1200. I got home and told my neighbor that I just spent $400 on a new record player. He said, I wish you asked me first, I got one in the basement you can have for free. So I returned the SL1200 and been playing his technics SL-Q2 since. It has taken me a bit down the road, but now time to back up and take the first road. I was gonna ask you guys about the Technics after I saw tvads mentioning it last week. Thanks for beating me to the question.

Crazy, the phono preamp is the same as phono stage. It will have an impact on the quality of the playback. The difference will be audible to the degree that everything else in the chain allows the phono preamp flaws to be revealed. A cheap cartridge, noisy motor, dirty records, bad alignment of the cartridge, cheap cables, amplifier, speakers, refrigerator or AC running, kids screaming (can you picture my house now?) will all affect the overall presentation and have to be accounted for if you are seeking initiation into the vinyl cult. hahahaha Phono preamp will have a significant effect if all these other issues are well in control. It can make the difference of tears of boredom or tears of joy! But so can cartridge, amp, cables, and oh yeah, the record too!

I am a newbie here too, learning while I listen and fiddle with my cheap turntable, almost ready to upgrade. The best advice I have got from this forum is do with what you got and try what you can afford. Guidance on what is best for the money is available here and has been very helpful to me. If you hve a cheap phono amp, use it until you are sick of its flaws and then find a better one for your budget. I wonder where to buy records too, I wish I had not hocked my records to pay for a crooked doctor visit in mid 80s. I thought I could buy them all back easily, but then never had the money until they were all out of print. ha!

Acoustic Sounds is an expensive source of new and used records, but at least it's something. Most big cities have used record stores which are thriving and growing. There are sources. I haven;t shopped for jazz LPs in years so I don't know what is available. Back then it was ressiues coming in from Japan, this was before Lundvall resuscitated Blue Note.

I will shut up and leave some room for the experts.
Welcome to AC!!
Rich

[WEEZ]

Good advice from Rich, there. If you're gonna start, ya' gotta start somewhere 

[Daverz]

I'd like to get into the "bottom-end of the sweet spot", with my first turntable purchase.   Are all stylus compatible with all tonearms/turntables?

Usually those cartridges that have replaceable styli require a replacement specific to that model.  See http://needledoctor.com  
Most "hi-fi" cartridges do not have replaceable styli at all: you either get the cartridge's stylus "retipped" or replace the cartridge altogether.

Should I upgrade my stylus right away

Depends on how many hours are on it.  If you don't know anything about its history, it may be best to replace it.

- how much difference does it make?

It can make a huge difference in the sound.

Does this mean I can't use the turntable with my headphone amp?

You'll need a phono pre-amp or a receiver or integrated amp with a phono section.

I also listened to my father's turntable.  I chose a record that looked perfectly clean, free of dust or particles - yet when I played it, there were still pops and clicks.  Is this normal?  Was this because he has a particularly old/cheap turntable?

Records do tend to collect particulates over the years.  You could try a record cleaning system like the Disc Doctor system.  If your collection grows to several hundred records, you might want to get a record cleaning machine.  But also some pressings are simply noisy, and damage to records is not always easy to see with just a visual inspection.

Since you'll be listening on headphones, you will hear more surface noise.  Some care should be taken to choose components  that don't emphasize surface noise.  The table, arm, cartridge, and phono pre-amp all effect this.

Finally, what are some good ways to build my record collection?  I love avant-garde, classical, and experimental/historical Eastern European (Eisler, Weil, Shostakovich, etc.), but also plenty of more mainstream stuff like soundtracks to films (of the whole 20th century, from early to late).  I searched for a few titles I was interested in, and was dismayed to see that they are rare/expensive...I feel like I'm in a race against deterioration/collectors to get the music I want before it's all gone!  How should I go about collecting the titles I want before they disappear?  What are good sources from which to buy, besides the obvious eBay?

Ebay can be a very expensive way to build a collection.  It's also a crapshoot as many sellers on ebay don't grade records properly.  Another online source of used Lps is http://gemm.com

Try to find used vinyl stores in your area.  These will generally be cheaper than ebay.  In L.A., Record Surplus and Amoeba are good for 20th Century classical.  Try to exhaust thrift stores, used bookstores (Half Price Books and Nice Price Books if you have these chains in your area), swap meets, etc, and only use ebay as a last resort.

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/
http://www.halfpricebooks.com/find_a_store.html

[woodsyi]

Where are you located?  Keep scanning your local Craig's List.  There is always someone getting rid of a hundred or two LPs at least once a week.  They tend to be pop mostly but you get classical now and then.  You can also come to my basement and pick up hundreds of classical LPs free if you are in Virginia.   I am redoing my storage room to enable me to keep more selections but wife has decreed that 3000 is the max.  I will have to let go of some recordings that I like.  That's the rub of classical music -- there are multiple recordings of the same piece that you want to keep.    

Make or get a record cleaning machine.  Even expensive system will still sound crappy if you spin dirty vinyl.  I am a big believer in vacuum cleaner.

[Daverz]

My musical tastes don't tend towards too many popular records unfortunately...  

It can indeed be hard to grow a collection if you you have more rarified tastes.  It really depends on whether you have access to the used vinyl stores that would be in a large metropolitan area, or whether you are willing to pay online prices.  You might find that your musical taste is better served by CD.  But there is still plenty of 20th Century music on vinyl that never made it to CD.

One site for used vinyl at reasonable prices that I forgot to mention was Parnassus Records.

If the Technics 1200 has the best upgradeability, then I'll just go with that.    It doesn't seem like it has a preamp (I may be wrong?)

No, it's just a turntable with arm, and perhaps a cartridge if you get a package deal.

but I do have a cheap Technics AV receiver that DOES have a phono port, so, at least that would be a start - right?  

Yes, I'd try that first.  Hook your headphone amp up to the tape out.

If the preamp/stage manages the EQ of the recording (because of the way the grooves work), then I imagine that a better quality preamp/stage makes all the difference in quality of bass/treble?  Just how much impact do they have?

It can make a large difference, though once you have a good quality preamp, the differences are probably more subtle than differences between cartridges.

Is there much degradation of quality if I'm routing a signal through a receiver instead of just plugging it as directly as possible into my final output?  

There is always going to be some wiring from the cartridge to a phono preamp of some kind and then to your headphone amp.  I wouldn't worry about this.

Also, at this stage, I would not buy expensive interconnects (well, I wouldn't buy them at any stage, but that's just me).

How does every component of the system contribute to the final sonic quality?  I mean - what is the main turntable responsible for, what about the tonearm, what about the cartridge?  Which has the greatest affect on the final quality?  

Excellent questions.  I'm not quite up to the task of giving good answers

Once you decide on a table, the easiest thing to change to effect the sound is the cartridge, then the phono preamp.  The arm is probably the last thing you might change.

If I get the Technics 1200, can I use any cartridge I want?  

It will accept a large variety of cartridges, but not all cartridges are compatible with the stock arm.  There are plenty of 1200 users to ask (here or on Vinyl Asylum.)

Also, for low output moving coil cartridges (usually less than 0.5mV output), you'll need a phono pre-amp that can accept the lower signal voltage, or a special step up device (which could be a passive step-up transformer [SUT] or a powered head-amp).   High output moving coils don't need a step-up device.  The popular Denon 103 cartridge is a low output moving coil.

Unless it specifies otherwise, your Technics can probably accept output from high output cartridges only.

There are tons of cartridges - do they all have different affects on the warmth/dynamics/bass/treble/detail/soundstage

Do they have any other affects (like lessening pops and clicks, or lowering background hiss, or anything like that?)

Yes to both questions.  Also, some cartridges can track grooves better than others.

[tomjtx]

Oh! you poor, poor person. It is obvious the audiophile virus has fully infected you and you will spend the rest of your life ambling, zombie like , through the minefield of high end desire, ever to be thwarted in your aural ambitions . Bankruptcy is just around the corner and  if you are married, divorce is likely as well. If you are single, forget about having a girlfriend.

OTOH, you are going to have a blast listening to music.

[crazyface]

Hello!  Thanks again to everyone for all their help!

  KAB is in consideration, thanks!  While the 1200 is well-regarded, I'm still intrigued by some of the other models of turntable that can play a wider range of discs (by having more adjustable speed settings).  But at the same time, I understand that a curved tone arm is important to actually reach all the grooves with the stylus...  So I still don't know quite what I'll get!  I like that the KAB turn tables are so well-maintained and inspected, so, for ease of mind, I will probably just go with KAB, even though on eBay some other intriguing turntables are listed a little cheaper.

  Now that I know of a few entry-level turntables, what are some high-quality entry-level cartridges around $80-$150?
Will vinyl from other countries/decades play without too much trouble?  For example does (ex)Soviet-manufactured vinyl have grooves, RPMs, etc., compatible with most turntables?...assuming I'd actually ever be able to find any to buy.

I live in a rural suburb in Central Florida, about an hour's drive East of Orlando.  I've lived here for about 10 years and never seen a record store. 

Woodsyi, I'd love to take advantage of your offer, but I'm just nowhere near Virginia.    Sorry!  If you could be bothered to ship at least some of them, though, I'd be happy to pay for the expenses involved - as well as for your time, and whatever you think fair for the records.  My local post-office can be pretty rough with parcels, though.  Fed-Ex seems to take a bit more care than USPS.  Anyway, I know what you mean about craving different recordings of the same works - I've got half a dozen Mozart Requiem CD's, half a dozen of Dvorak's, I must have a dozen performances of Albinoni's adagio, Carl Orff's Carmina Burana, etc., etc...

Thanks again for all your help!  I'll check through all the different websites that you've all been kind enough to list here.

[Daverz]

I'm still intrigued by some of the other models of turntable that can play a wider range of discs (by having more adjustable speed settings). 

Be careful here.  78s will need a different kind of stylus, and probably a different kind of cartridge.  If you are really interested in 78s and don't want a separate table just for playing them, you'll probably want to get a tonearm with a detachable headshell so you can quickly change cartridges by just changing headshells.  I can't think of many tables that at least won't play 45s in addition to 33 1/3. 

But at the same time, I understand that a curved tone arm is important to actually reach all the grooves with the stylus... 

I hadn't heard that one.  Are we talking about oddly sized records or something?

I live in a rural suburb in Central Florida, about an hour's drive East of Orlando.  I've lived here for about 10 years and never seen a record store. 

Here's a list of Florida record stores (these things are often out of date, though.)

http://www.recordcollectorsguild.org/index.php?name=Web_Links&req=viewlink&cid=36

[Daverz]

For example does (ex)Soviet-manufactured vinyl have grooves, RPMs, etc., compatible with most turntables?...assuming I'd actually ever be able to find any to buy.

I've never heard of any problems with foreign Lps.  Pre-1956 records may not use the RIAA equalization curve.  I guess it's possible that some foreign manufacturers took longer to catch up.

[launche]

Here's a list of Florida record stores (these things are often out of date, though.)

http://www.recordcollectorsguild.org/index.php?name=Web_Links&req=viewlink&cid=36

Oh yeah, several of those locations in my area (S. Florida)  are no longer in business, best to call around first.  Thanks for the link.

[Nels Ferre]

I live in a rural suburb in Central Florida, about an hour's drive East of Orlando.  I've lived here for about 10 years and never seen a record store. 

You need to go to Rock 'n' Roll Heaven (used record store) over on Princeton Street in Orlando   Don't let the name fool you, they have everything. Super people, and the vinyl they stock is in great shape.

Also, there is "Antique Row" on Virginia Drive on Orlando, as well as the antique shops in downtown Sanford. I've found records in all of these places.

Rural, an hour's drive east of Orlando...I'm guessing....Christmas, Chuluota, or Narcoosee...am I right?