Help me select my first turntable please? And answer a few vinyl-questions?

crazyface · « **Reply #20 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 05:00 pm »

no.

titusville. it's fitting that you were so unaware of it that you didn't even think to name it; it might as well not exist at all.

Okay, awesome, thanks so much for those shops! I'll check them out soon.

Presently, I'm seriously considering this turntable:
http://www.kabusa.com/KABTRS2.HTM *

It's not the 1200, but according to the description it will play just about any record -- and I like the idea of not being restricted by my turntable while I'm starting to build a collection of disks. Do you think the sound quality will be much degraded from the Technics 1200?

I'm kind of in a tough spot, because I have two goals with this analog system:
1. Get the kind of warm, lush sound I've discovered a love for - that my CD's don't have.
2. Collect obscure/historical music that I wouldn't be able to find anywhere else.

I don't know if it's realistic to expect those two goals to align much, considering the condition that most of the more obscure records I'd get will most likely be in. But I'd like to be able to do a little of both, with this first system - though I'm quite aware that it's just not going to compare to something much more expensive. I just don't want to compromise too far on either field unless it's unrealistic to do them both at once. Does that sound doable? Am I on the right track?

Thanks again!

* I do wonder, though - with this model turntable, do I need to pick up the tonearm at the end of the record, or will it go back on its own?

crazyface · « **Reply #21 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 05:13 pm »

Another question I've got is, when I'm buying used records, how can I tell the condition of the record in front of me?

I know that a lot of factors go into the inevitable degradation of vinyl - the kind of stylus, the operation of the tone arm, general handling, storage, etc... And I know the basics, like holding up the record to check if it's warped, and of course big scratches would be obvious... but how can i tell the difference, for example, between a record that's only been played a few times, and a record that's been played repeatedly in a poor system? Before I buy the record and listen to it, of course.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #22 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 05:20 pm »

Quote

* I do wonder, though - with this model turntable, do I need to pick up the tonearm at the end of the record, or will it go back on its own?

Its a manual tonearm...you pick it up when the Lp is done....

crazyface · « **Reply #23 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 05:22 pm »

Thank you lonewolfny

If I'm away from the record when it finishes, will the stylus be damaged as I'm not there to pick it up?

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #24 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 05:24 pm »

Quote from: crazyface on 13 Jun 2007, 05:22 pm

Thank you lonewolfny
If I'm away from the record when it finishes, will the stylus be damaged as I'm not there to pick it up?

Well ....its not a good thing to "let it spin".....

gooberdude · « **Reply #25 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 05:29 pm »

records that have been stored properly, and not played 1000 times stay real black & shiny. Even if its dusty or has never been RCM's, there's a sheen on nice vinyl that's unmistakable. Often times i'm not able to even hear scratches that are apprent on the surface...you don't listen to the surface of an LP, you listen to the info in the grooves. as long as scratches aren't deep they shouldn't affect play.

Besides that, check for the obvious: rings around the cover tell you its been stacked or stored poorly. Corners and seams are destroyed. ANY signs of water damage, like from a flooded basement and signs of issues on the label itself.

A skill that i've learned is how to judge what a nasty looking used LP will look like after a good RCM cleaning. If an LP is pale looking, little if any shiny black and just a blah! black...stay away. its been spun many times. however, if you're in the $1 bin give anything a chance. Many, many stores will let you spin the album on-site to check for issues...just ask.

A vacuum cleaning machine is a must for any serious used LP fan.

crazyface · « **Reply #26 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 05:47 pm »

Ok, well that record player I linked to doesn't have a cueing arm, and i don't trust myself to always be there to pick up the tone arm - or to drop it. <:/ so i'd better pick something automatic i think. thanks!

thanks gooberdude! i'll commit your tips to memory.

shiny = good.

Toka · « **Reply #27 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 06:47 pm »

If you want an automatic, that Denon DP-300F from KAB linked earlier would be a good choice. Set it up and you are ready to go. You will likely get better performance by disabling the internal preamp and using an external one, but you get the chance to try both and decide which one you like better. Let us know what you end up with, and how you enjoy it.

Daverz · « **Reply #28 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 06:50 pm »

Quote from: crazyface on 13 Jun 2007, 10:54 am

what are some high-quality entry-level cartridges around $80-$150?

I've read good things about the Audio Technica 440MLa.

Toka · « **Reply #29 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 07:20 pm »

Quote from: Daverz on 13 Jun 2007, 06:50 pm

Quote from: crazyface on 13 Jun 2007, 10:54 am
what are some high-quality entry-level cartridges around $80-$150?

I've read good things about the Audio Technica 440MLa.

I'll second that one.

crazyface · « **Reply #30 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 07:34 pm »

Hello again! Thanks for the recommendations! I'll check out that denon turntable right now. I wonder if KAB would be likely to upgrade the cartridge to the one you suggested (at fitting cost to me, naturally).

I was reading the wiki article about vinyl records, and it said that in the past 15 or so years there have been all manner of "audiophile pressings" of recordings - special editions, that kind of thing. I'm very interested in those as concerns the soundtracks of films I've enjoyed. Is there some database of records where I can see the versions of records produced, so I'll know if something like that is out there for the title I'm seeking? Or is the best anybody can do just searching online by name and seeing what they get?

I've also discovered that low playback speeds were for spoken word/low-quality records, so I'm not so concerned about that anymore. Anything that can handle the three main speeds with a little bit of correction would be great for a starter.

I've also stumbled across a lot of literature that basically says, "if you like the sound of vinyl more, you're kidding yourself."

crazyface · « **Reply #31 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 07:56 pm »

Well, I looked at the Denon and it can't do 78's, so it's not for me. Thanks though! I think that, for the features I want at the price point I need them, I'm pretty much resigned to the NUMARK TT200 http://www.kabusa.com/tt200.htm . I'm kind of concerned that there's no dust cover, though. Will that do anything weird to the stylus or tonearm, or does it just mean that I 'll need to clean the platter once in a while? Does the lack of a dustcover have any sonic side-effect?

gooberdude · « **Reply #32 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 07:59 pm »

no dustcover is much better actually, no hinges or screws to mess up the way the deck & platter vibrate together... Some guys just keep a towel or something similar over the rig when its not in use. Just be careful of the stylus - always.

try www.allmusic.com its a decent source for a lot of albums and artists.

For under $100 the AT 440MLa is the bomb, you might also try a cheaper Grado though for Round #1.

crazyface · « **Reply #33 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 08:08 pm »

Excellent, thanks!

Jampot · « **Reply #34 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 08:14 pm »

Quote

I'm pretty much resigned to the NUMARK TT200 http://www.kabusa.com/tt200.htm

Still no auto shut off....

For that you are limited to the KAB SL-BD 78 -

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?ttables.htm#tt200

Which, despite the '78' in the name is a 3 speed turntable.

Buy it bundled with an entry level phono stage for $329 and start listening

As your collection of music develops you may like to buy another package from Ken to extract the best from your mainstream (331/3) discs but will always have the SL_BD 78 to enjoy the odd-balls on.

Jim

Toka · « **Reply #35 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 08:22 pm »

Good call Jampot, I was about to suggest the same exact thing. I wouldn't go hog wild trying different carts right away...a 'better' cart means little if you have nothing to compare it to. I'd spend the money on records at first, then when you are comfortable with what you have try something else. Make sure you get, at least, some sort of brush...the Goldring Exstatic from KAB being a good one to start out with.

crazyface · « **Reply #36 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 08:24 pm »

As far as automatic/manual goes, I've decided I'll just pay attention.

As for the SL-BD, that looks neat, but I've read too many bad things about a straight tone-arm - I've heard it can contribute to loss of khz from the record.

So I think I'll go with the TT200, as that has an S arm.

So the way it works in the case of manual, is when the record finishes, I kill the motor, wait until it stops, then stick my finger under the tone arm and lift straight up? From the picture it doesn't look like there's a cue stick, but I can't really tell.

Toka · « **Reply #37 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 08:53 pm »

A straight tonearm won't kill anything if the cartridge is installed correctly...I wouldn't worry about that.

But anyway, you would life the tonearm off of the record before turning off the motor. Just lift straight up. One finger behind the headshell works if there is no cuing lever. You'll get used to it quickly.

richidoo · « **Reply #38 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 09:01 pm »

Hi Crazy
Some of your choices are models designed for DJs, so dust covers and cueing arms are not necessary. DJs are by far the largest consumers of vinyl gear now. But the gear they use has different requirements than the home audiophile listener. It is very well built, and in some cases will sound good, but in many cases is really more aimed at fashion and price. A lot of kids wanna be DJs until they try it once. Try to find the features you want at the lowest price, as long as the guys here say it is not junk. You may find a nice used Technics automatic model on EBAy or your local craigs list for amazing low price. I have one right now I will be selling at some point, and I got it free from a neighbor. Nobody wants their record players anymore. Haven't you heard? Vinyl is dead. hehe

The auto return feature is nice. Side replay on a "changer" is even nicer, but those players are usually stamped steel and have a dynamic cartridge. No preamp needed!

Your comments about the curved tonearm don't make sense to me, but I would be very interested to learn the logic behind the thought and get edumacated. Can you share your research about this? As I see it, the path that the needle follows is an arc determined by the radius from the arm pivot point. It will travel in a perfect round arc no matter what shape the arm. The distance from the pivot to the stylus should be as long as possible to minimize angle to groove change as the arm moves, but issues of arm length and mass come into play, probably other issues I don't know about. Most of the very high end tonearms are straight. It should be easier to produce a stiffer arm when it is straight, and lighter to reduce inertia. The angle of the cartridge at the end of the arm can be is twisted to get the best stylus angle to the groove, and this simulates a curved arm. Thanks.

I got a promotional 10% off letter from Guitar Center today and went to the site to see what SL1200s cost. I saw several different SL1200 family members there, ranging from 430 up to 650. Gotta look see what's the diff. Can a AudioQuest tonearm like PT-9 be fitted to SL1200, or meant for a flat plain plinth?
Thanks
Rich

crazyface · « **Reply #39 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 09:18 pm »

Yeah, I noticed that some of these seem very DJ-ed up. That's sad.

I hope they aren't doing all that scratching with real records that someone would like to listen to...

I've stayed up late reading so many forums and articles about vinyl the past few days - I'm sorry, but it's all a blur, and I couldn't relate to you exactly where I'd gotten my information, or the logic they put forward.

I should've stated this early, but I've been kind of delayed getting into vinyl because I was worried about the whole issue of the degradation of the records, due to friction from the stylus. So - I'm hoping I can put together an initial system that will mitigate that as much as possible. One the one hand, I enjoy curiosities, and I'm sure those sorts of records will already be poppy behind hope - but, on the other, I really do LOVE the vinyl sound, and I'm hoping to rebuild my CD library on vinyl as much as possible. So taking good care of the records is high priority for me - it would be hard to enjoy my music collection if I knew that every time I listened, I was destroying some quality.

I think what I heard about the s-curved tone arm was something like it's applying more even pressure as it progresses, balancing better, it can play all the way into the center, etc... but if high-priced systems have it, then I guess that can't be right.

My worry about buying off of eBay or craigslist or something is that, if there's a mechanical problem with the turntable, I won't have a clue - and nobody around here is likely capable of repairing it. And also there are so many models for sale on eBay - I have no clue which are any good...

Anyhow, thanks!